Jigglypuff for Top Tier?

[SDC]

Its ok....

YOU'VE ACTIVATED MY TRAP CARD!!!

I hope it's not Mirror Force, that card is sooooo broken

which is exactly the point. This is what happens to a puff with a lot of experience and skill when you put him against the best fox in the world.

Are you kidding? How is that a fair matchup? What is your point? How does putting the best fox in the world against a mediocre jigglypuff prove anything? If my argument was "jiggz is the best character in the game, broken, should be banned, you don't even have to be good to win with her", then yeah, that would be a legit vid to post. My argument is just "she's top tier, BELOW fox. When you have two characters who are both good, one of them slightly better then the other, of course when you pit the best player of one, against an above average player of the other, the better player will win. You of all people know that player skill is a factor. The only way to truly see how good puff and fox match up against each other is to put two players of equal skill against each other (m2k vs mango/hbox). And we all know how that always ends.

He actually made only a few true mistakes, most of which happened in the first stock of the first game.

No, he made plenty more then just that, there were missed opportunities for uptilt-->rest, upair-->rests. Each stock matters, if he had landed it in the first stock, the early lead could have helped him, given him motivation. Please don't ask me to post all the exact points that he made a mistake, as I don't have the time to do so (god knows I'll still do it lol).

you mean this one? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9BVW83FgVI#t=51s cause he actually didn't have many ways to actually hit m2k where he was firefoxing. If it was marth, it would have been over. Puff has many limitations on her edgeguard/gimp game.

Fastfall fair/nair should have done the job.

he missed one rest while in a place to safely do so and didn't get punished.

Lol, you got to be more creative, there are more then just the "oh look the lava bounced him up so now i'll rest him" opportunities. He missed the obvious lava one, but there are others as well. One of the mistakes he made, is that when he had his back directly to M2K, M2K was right behind him, Hyuga never used Uptilt. Had he landed an uptilt, he could have landed an easy rest. he didn't combo his upairs as well as he should either, and didn't use them as rest opportunities.

jumping into usmashes and being laser camped til you approach then getting usmashed when you do are very different.

Dude, honestly, he jumped into upsmashes. He wasn't "being laser camped till he approached", NO, he just scrubbishly floated right into upsmashes (no offense to Hyuga, but I think he would agree that he wasn't playing very well that set, maybe he was nervous, **** happens). If you do that, you will lose. **** it if any character just jumps right into fox they will get upsmashed.

Prove anything? No. I hoped it would open your eyes a little bit, though. Its not like m2k doesn't do the same strat on mango and hbox. Do you realize how precise and perfect you have to play to even get a stock on a fox? Watch that game again, watch how fox's aerials go through puff's and how usmash beats everything puff has and puff can't avoid it because she is slow.

Honestly, if you think this video is going to "open up the eyes" of anyone, then you are either an old-fashioned idiot or a troll. Straight up. Hyuga is obviously not only playing poorly but is not on the level of M2K, as I said, a more realistic matchup against M2K's fox is a top level Jiggz, which would be Mango's puff/Hbox's puff, and we all know who wins when that happens.

This is seriously one of the worst match-ups in top level play, and mango and hbox have actually convinced people that its in puff's favor. LOL CHARACTER MUST BE BR0K3NZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Obvious troll is obvious.

 

[otg]

That sort of attitude is ********. The jiggs can spawn and instantly airdodge to a ledge and ledgestall the entire time.

I don't really want to get involved in this discussion because it's already beyond ********, but I jjust have to point out that certain characters projectiles stop edge camping (Marios/Pika/Pichu), and that Doc in particular has a good matchup vs. jiggs. Ask HBox or Mango, I guarantee both of them hate doc and think he's an annoying matchup.

 

[TheManaLord]

Doc doesn't have what it takes to take out of the rest of the top tiers that litter the high placements.

It's the whole problem with counterpicking in the first place.

This game would be godly if you were limited to your character for the entire tournament. Or at least given only the choice to change the stage.

 

[Overswarm]

I don't really want to get involved in this discussion because it's already beyond ********, but I jjust have to point out that certain characters projectiles stop edge camping (Marios/Pika/Pichu), and that Doc in particular has a good matchup vs. jiggs. Ask HBox or Mango, I guarantee both of them hate doc and think he's an annoying matchup.

The metagame evolves!

Doc doesn't have what it takes to take out of the rest of the top tiers that litter the high placements.

It's the whole problem with counterpicking in the first place.

This game would be godly if you were limited to your character for the entire tournament.

Pick up Doc as a secondary and double blind first match.

 

[Toobz]

Good luck beating a laser camping Fox that is willing to run the timer.

The idea of opening up more stages is intriguing. You made a good argument about if all the stages are similar, the character that works best with those types of stages will obviously dominate tournaments. It would be interesting to see how other stages would affect the results. I still don't think they'd change much, but surprises can happen.

 

[DoctorBendz]

But that's all we have. The best player in the world mains jiggs. Saying that another character is better at this point is pure opinion. Until someone starts winning with another character, I don't think we have a choice but to accept that Jiggs is the best character in the game (currently). I think she has been the best for almost 3 years. The playstyles change, the metagame changes, but why can't the tier list change? All a tier list can do is represent what the best character currently is. The only way to determine that is with tournament results. If you think that Fox is still the best character in the game for winning tournaments, then you must think that jigglypuff wins every big tournament by fluke. Sure that could happen once, but not every major tourney for two and half years.

I think its just human nature to reject change in general. This is one of the stupidest and most pointless changes to reject though. You guys who think jiggs isn't the best have no factual evidence to support your claims.

I believe that player skill determines tournament results. If you think that Character ability determines tournament results, then we simply disagree. You don't need a tier list to tell you who wins tournaments. If that's how you want to determine which character is good, then just look at tourney results and make up your own mind.

If the old tier list is based solely off of tournament results, then I don't agree with it either. Also, i'm not arguing against changing the tier list, anyways.

The point is, that a Pichu player could come along with such an advanced playstyle, or just such good prediction/reaction ability that he dominates tournaments for a year. This would not make Pichu the best character in the game, in my opinion, all it means is that this player is amazing. Is it likely? Of course not, but it's not impossible.

I personally look at the tier list as representative of how match ups would turn out if everyone was a near perfect player, because I don't think that character ability has anything to do with player ability. Great players will do well regardless of the character they use. Look at Taj. He plays Mewtwo. He beats good players. That doesn't mean Mewtwo is better then the characters those players use.

So, I guess we can agree to disagree. People should stop throwing around the phrase "factual evidence" though. Saying Mango winning tournaments with Jiggs is factual evidence that Jiggs is the best character is not only insulting Mango and Hbox's playing ability, but it's like saying that Mike Mangini getting the world record for most single strokes in a minute is factual evidence that the drumsticks he used are the best kind of drumsticks. It just doesn't make sense.

 

[Overswarm]

The idea of opening up more stages is intriguing. You made a good argument about if all the stages are similar, the character that works best with those types of stages will obviously dominate tournaments. It would be interesting to see how other stages would affect the results. I still don't think they'd change much, but surprises can happen.

It's not so much that it would change results as that it would close the gap and those that have a very small set of skills would no longer dominate. Mango would still be a beast because he has several good characters. HBox might not (I don't know his ability on other stages / characters)! Maybe you'd see laser camping as a strategy against Jiggs grow, or maybe his weight alone would discourage Jiggs mains from going without a secondary.

It's all about opening up options and letting the game flow naturally.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

@sean

M2K won't approach ever, so utilting in place (even just once) is not an effective strat even if the payoff is good.

FF nair/fair wouldn't have gotten that gimp. The only 2 ways i saw it working out for him is if he tapped m2k with a dair and then continued off stage to finish it or if he went back on stage and got into position to fair/bair m2k out of the firefox as it came up. Both of those would have been pretty hard to do, anyways, because of the priority of the fire and the small window of time to get into position.

every time m2k got a usmash on him, he was trying to approach with a fair/bair and got out prioritized by the usmash.

Anyways, the point is that mango and hbox are really really good. its not like hyuga just picked up the game a week before pound.... he's been playing for years. I wanted you to see the difference between mango/hbox puff which make tons of amazing decisions and space perfectly and make puff look easy and broken and a puff that does the same strat except isn't as talented.

 

[Toobz]

I believe that player skill determines tournament results. If you think that Character ability determines tournament results, then we simply disagree. You don't need a tier list to tell you who wins tournaments. If that's how you want to determine which character is good, then just look at tourney results and make up your own mind.

If the old tier list is based solely off of tournament results, then I don't agree with it either. Also, i'm not arguing against changing the tier list, anyways.

The point is, that a Pichu player could come along with such an advanced playstyle, or just such good prediction/reaction ability that he dominates tournaments for a year. This would not make Pichu the best character in the game, in my opinion, all it means is that this player is amazing. Is it likely? Of course not, but it's not impossible.

I personally look at the tier list as representative of how match ups would turn out if everyone was a near perfect player, because I don't think that character ability has anything to do with player ability. Great players will do well regardless of the character they use. Look at Taj. He plays Mewtwo. He beats good players. That doesn't mean Mewtwo is better then the characters those players use.

So, I guess we can agree to disagree. People should stop throwing around the phrase "factual evidence" though. Saying Mango winning tournaments with Jiggs is factual evidence that Jiggs is the best character is not only insulting Mango and Hbox's playing ability, but it's like saying that Mike Mangini getting the world record for most single strokes in a minute is factual evidence that the drumsticks he used are the best kind of drumsticks. It just doesn't make sense.

Well if Pichu actually did that, then I'd have to agree that Pichu is currently the best character in the game. My point is it hasn't happened yet. What has happened is Jiggs winning everything for years, and people should recognize and respect that fact. If jiggs is so easy to fight against then she should not win every tournament. I only think that actual events and outcomes are the only logical way to determine a tier list.

My first post in this thread has my opinion on why exactly Jiggs is the best character. It is my theory made up for the purpose of trying to understand why she is winning everything. If you'd like to read that, its on page 23 I think. Just in case you're curious about the details.

 

[DoctorBendz]

Well if Pichu actually did that, then I'd have to agree that Pichu is currently the best character in the game. My point is it hasn't happened yet. What has happened is Jiggs winning everything for years, and people should recognize and respect that fact. If jiggs is so easy to fight against then she should not win every tournament. I only think that actual events and outcomes are the only logical way to determine a tier list.

My first post in this thread has my opinion on why exactly Jiggs is the best character. It is my theory made up for the purpose of trying to understand why she is winning everything. If you'd like to read that, its on page 23 I think. Just in case you're curious about the details.

I'll check it out for sure. But, yeah, I think it just seems like we disagree on our uses for/ideas about tier lists.

I need to stop reading this thread...

**Read, and that is the case. I completely agree with the ideas comparing Fox and Jigglypuff, so it really just comes down to our thinking about how tier lists should be made being different. I guess I just like theory and you like results. Cool.

 

[x After Dawn x]

but it's like saying that Mike Mangini getting the world record for most single strokes in a minute is factual evidence that the drumsticks he used are the best kind of drumsticks. It just doesn't make sense.

this times a thousand

everybody should read that before posting

2 people doing good with a character is not enough to say that character is godlike

 

[Toobz]

this times a thousand

everybody should read that before posting

2 people doing good with a character is not enough to say that character is godlike

There's nothing else to go on.

 

[-ACE-]

That is not a worthy analogy AT ALL lol

Do you really think the differences in drum sticks even comes close to the many differences between various characters in melee?

 

[Overswarm]

Ace has made a win post at 3:03 p.m. on Wednesday, January 20th, 2010.

 

[-ACE-]

Lol OS. You can't troll me.

Edit: A misinterpretation then. This is without a doubt a Kodak moment.

 

[TheManaLord]

Analogies are always such garbage haha. Just a way to sidestep the actual points and refer it to something that could be vaguely comparable but really isn't.

 

[otg]

Doc doesn't have what it takes to take out of the rest of the top tiers that litter the high placements.

Two things:

1.) imo the only TRUE bad matchup Doc has is Marth, and like 99% of Marth's dont know how to play it right anyway. Any other matchup that is "terrible" for Doc is either a personal bad matchup or it's that ....

2.) There are no top level doc's. Not even close. not waffles, shroomed, boss, dogy or anyone. Not saying thye aren't good, but they aren't Mango/Hbox/M2k level good.

I'm not trynig to say you're going to see Doc's rising, or a that there will be top Docs or anything like that, in fact I doubt it. Doesn't mean it can't happen tho. Also, it doesn't change the fact that Doc has a very good MU vs. Jiggs, and that people might consider actually learning it instead of sticking with the same old ****ty spacy tactics that get ***** again and again by efficient floaties.

 

[Overswarm]

It's not a troll post. Characters make the player. The player merely makes up for the difference.

 

[Toobz]

I think I'm pretty much done with this thread. I stand by everything I've said. And for the record, I never said Mango and Hbox weren't good. They are. They are the ones that made jigglypuff the current best character in the game. I'm glad some of you can agree with some things, but its very disheartening to hear (in my mind of course) empty pointless arguments why jigglypuff is not the best character, much less top tier. I'll continue to read this thread, but I don't expect any change of opinion. I think we've all worn ourselves out in here.

 

[DoctorBendz]

That is not a worthy analogy AT ALL lol

Do you really think the differences in drum sticks even comes close to the many differences between various characters in melee?

No. It's much more about my opinions on the differences between Player ability and Character ability, which people seem to think is the same thing for some reason. I am of the opinion that the person playing is more important than the character he's using. I'm saying that "Mango wins with puff = puff is great" is like, "Mangini gets world record with sticks = sticks are great". Everyone is just giving credit to the wrong thing. I wasn't saying that drum sticks = video game characters...
You would REALLY say "Mangini gets world record with sticks = Mangini is great." right? So why doesn't anyone say "Mango wins with puff = Mango is great."


What I've been trying to say is that PLAYERS AND CHARACTERS ARE DIFFERENT. Just because someone who is amazing at something can use something mediocre to do something great does not suddenly make that mediocre thing also great. It doesn't matter who or what. That's just how I feel about that. Everyone seems to be crediting the CHARACTER and not the PLAYERS. The CHARACTERS don't move of their own will. The PLAYER controls them. The character could do NOTHING without a player, and therefore the PLAYER is far more important in winning a tournament than a CHARACTER is. This is why I feel that tournament results do not determine how good or bad a CHARACTER is.

(Jiggs isn't mediocre, I know. It's an example, get over it.)

I've never been arguing that Jiggs isn't a good character, and I've never been arguing against changing the tier list. I've been arguing against what I thought was flawed logic or unfair reasoning regarding Jiggs. None of what I said was to prove that jiggs is bad, just trying to show people that jiggs being the best character is FAR from being the only explanation for Mango's recent dominance.

I'm gonna go with Toobz on this, and say that I'm not posting anymore in here, because it's just going to be the same things over and over again(as it has been).

 

[Smasher89]

There's nothing else to go on.

If two characters play each other with action replay(which mean framedatawise).
The one who gets the most oppoturnitys to attack the other safe is IMO and probably other people would say he is the better character in the matchup, apply that and som ARcombos then say puff is better then fox, in most matchups.

Theres one flaw in this logic though, allways being able to powershield every move :/

 

[Wobbles]

This is addressed to people saying that Jigglypuff is broken:

Why do you fail to consider that Mango and HBox are extremely good players?

M2K used to play Marth and made Marth look unbeatable. Same with Ken. But then M2K also knew way more about the game, was more technically precise and consistent than anybody, and sought to pick the best option for any situation. Ken used crazy reads and risky approaches but they almost always payed off because he could read through most people. As a result of their playstyles (different though they were), Marth appeared to be unstoppable. For more than 4 years.

Look at HBox and Mango. HBox throws out aerials in the general place that people like to move, and then focuses on being safe elsewhere. He essentially exploits people's tendencies and favors safe, consistent play. The riskiest thing about him is the large quantity of rests he goes for, but when you consider how GOOD he is at resting you can hardly count it as a risk at all.

Armada himself said it after Genesis, that he got shook up by one of Mango's rests because he didn't think Mango could read him. That's what Mango does. He sees through your playstyle and hides his own intentions really well; it feels like you can't hit him because he knows where you're going to go, and what you're going to do, so he picks the appropriate counter to it. He's outthinking every other player and it makes Puff look unbeatable by association.

They're both incredibly efficient players who are good at abusing the weaknesses and playstyles of their opponents. That's it. Puff isn't broken. Go away.

--

For people saying she's top-tier: Sure. Why not? Her punishment game is incredibly powerful, she's got the mobility to implement it. Her power and recovery are balanced out somewhat by her weight, similar to how Fox and Falco are balanced by their gimpability and fall-speed.

Most importantly though is her aerial mobility, which gives her lots of potential for deceiving opponents in the hand of a smart player. Tiny adjustments to your spacing and speed can give people the impression you're going one direction when you aren't, or that you're going to be somewhere you won't. This is what gives players like Mango such a huge edge and allows him to work around characters with superior range; he's constantly working to fake out his opponents with subtle movement changes. Puff is a character that lets you work on this kind of mental level excellently. It's almost fair to say she has infinite capacity for mixup as a result.

So putting all that together, it's hard NOT to argue Puff for top tier. It's a large and heavily condensed top tier when you factor in Fox, Falco, Marth and Sheik, but I'd be willing to put her in there somewhere. But NOT in broken tier, or god tier, or even best in the game.

 

[iamthemicrowave]

This is addressed to people saying that Jigglypuff is broken:

Why do you fail to consider that Mango and HBox are extremely good players?

M2K used to play Marth and made Marth look unbeatable. Same with Ken. But then M2K also knew way more about the game, was more technically precise and consistent than anybody, and sought to pick the best option for any situation. Ken used crazy reads and risky approaches but they almost always payed off because he could read through most people. As a result of their playstyles (different though they were), Marth appeared to be unstoppable. For more than 4 years.

Look at HBox and Mango. HBox throws out aerials in the general place that people like to move, and then focuses on being safe elsewhere. He essentially exploits people's tendencies and favors safe, consistent play. The riskiest thing about him is the large quantity of rests he goes for, but when you consider how GOOD he is at resting you can hardly count it as a risk at all.

Armada himself said it after Genesis, that he got shook up by one of Mango's rests because he didn't think Mango could read him. That's what Mango does. He sees through your playstyle and hides his own intentions really well; it feels like you can't hit him because he knows where you're going to go, and what you're going to do, so he picks the appropriate counter to it. He's outthinking every other player and it makes Puff look unbeatable by association.

They're both incredibly efficient players who are good at abusing the weaknesses and playstyles of their opponents. That's it. Puff isn't broken. Go away.

--

For people saying she's top-tier: Sure. Why not? Her punishment game is incredibly powerful, she's got the mobility to implement it. Her power and recovery are balanced out somewhat by her weight, similar to how Fox and Falco are balanced by their gimpability and fall-speed.

Most importantly though is her aerial mobility, which gives her lots of potential for deceiving opponents in the hand of a smart player. Tiny adjustments to your spacing and speed can give people the impression you're going one direction when you aren't, or that you're going to be somewhere you won't. This is what gives players like Mango such a huge edge and allows him to work around characters with superior range; he's constantly working to fake out his opponents with subtle movement changes. Puff is a character that lets you work on this kind of mental level excellently. It's almost fair to say she has infinite capacity for mixup as a result.

So putting all that together, it's hard NOT to argue Puff for top tier. It's a large and heavily condensed top tier when you factor in Fox, Falco, Marth and Sheik, but I'd be willing to put her in there somewhere. But NOT in broken tier, or god tier, or even best in the game.

you hit the nail on the head son, i couldn't agree more.

 

[SDC]

@sean

M2K won't approach ever, so utilting in place (even just once) is not an effective strat even if the payoff is good.

Sveet, I'm not talking about just standing there and uptilting, hoping that he runs into it. That's stupid. I'm saying that when jiggz has her back to fox, and he is directly behind her, that's an easy uptilt opportunity, something that Hyuga never did.

FF nair/fair wouldn't have gotten that gimp. The only 2 ways i saw it working out for him is if he tapped m2k with a dair and then continued off stage to finish it or if he went back on stage and got into position to fair/bair m2k out of the firefox as it came up. Both of those would have been pretty hard to do, anyways, because of the priority of the fire and the small window of time to get into position.

Dair would have worked too, yes, but I think fair/nair would have landed had he had the timing, if he took the opportunity immediately instead of hesitating he would have had the gimp. This is one of the things that separates a player like Hyuga from a player like Hbox, Hbox would have had that gimp, Hyuga hesitated. That is why Hyuga vs M2K is not a fair comparison of the two characters, M2K is obviously on a higher level then Hyuga.

every time m2k got a usmash on him, he was trying to approach with a fair/bair and got out prioritized by the usmash.

Ok, did you watch the match? Half the time he didn't even move, he just kind of jumped in without doing anything. And yes of course Fox's upsmash will outprioritize Jiggz, that's why you don't make it obvious. Don't just jump stupidly on in, if ANY character does that, they are just asking to be upsmashed. Nobody does that with ANY character. You bait fox to make his upsmash and THEN you make your move. ANY character playing fox (unless you're falco, then you can just shuffle lazers lol) will have to do this, unless they want to get upsmashed. Jiggz makes it easier with her excellent ariel maneuverability.

Anyways, the point is that mango and hbox are really really good. its not like hyuga just picked up the game a week before pound.... he's been playing for years. I wanted you to see the difference between mango/hbox puff which make tons of amazing decisions and space perfectly and make puff look easy and broken and a puff that does the same strat except isn't as talented.

No, it's not like he was born yesterday, but it's not like he's on the same level as M2K, Hbox, or Mango. There's a difference between somebody who's just started playing (scrub), and someone who just isn't fundamentally as good as the top level (above average player). No offense to Hyuga, but he just isn't on the level of M2K/Hbox/Mango.

You can't just grab some video of some above average player going up against one of the best in the world, and make some point about quality of character. You can't do it. That means I could grab some vid of Mango destroying some mediocre fox and act like "hey guise fox isn't that good lol". If you want to realistically and truly compare characters, you have to have players who are at somewhat equal skill, then the differences in character will shine. You show fox at his top level right? Mew2king. Well to be fair you'd have to have that same top level of jigglypuff (Mango/Hbox) and then compare. Or you could have a lower level fox play Hyuga, that would be fair.

Stop comparing the best players to mid-level players, you can't ****ing do it. It's just not logical.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

pokefloats should be banned onett is cool but the other 2 are glichty, campy, and highly in foxes favor.

IF any stage should come back it's brinstar dethps the fall thought thing isn't bad i've done it a lot everyone should be able to react in time unlike pokefloats seal you can make it back and even if you fail uber bad you can still land on the little piece moving below.

Also the waveshinging isn't a huge problem and the movement is pretty predictable it depends on where everyone is fighting on the stage. Play a few matches and figure it out.

 

[SDC]

This is addressed to people saying that Jigglypuff is broken:

Why do you fail to consider that Mango and HBox are extremely good players?

M2K used to play Marth and made Marth look unbeatable. Same with Ken. But then M2K also knew way more about the game, was more technically precise and consistent than anybody, and sought to pick the best option for any situation. Ken used crazy reads and risky approaches but they almost always payed off because he could read through most people. As a result of their playstyles (different though they were), Marth appeared to be unstoppable. For more than 4 years.

Look at HBox and Mango. HBox throws out aerials in the general place that people like to move, and then focuses on being safe elsewhere. He essentially exploits people's tendencies and favors safe, consistent play. The riskiest thing about him is the large quantity of rests he goes for, but when you consider how GOOD he is at resting you can hardly count it as a risk at all.

Armada himself said it after Genesis, that he got shook up by one of Mango's rests because he didn't think Mango could read him. That's what Mango does. He sees through your playstyle and hides his own intentions really well; it feels like you can't hit him because he knows where you're going to go, and what you're going to do, so he picks the appropriate counter to it. He's outthinking every other player and it makes Puff look unbeatable by association.

They're both incredibly efficient players who are good at abusing the weaknesses and playstyles of their opponents. That's it. Puff isn't broken. Go away.

--

For people saying she's top-tier: Sure. Why not? Her punishment game is incredibly powerful, she's got the mobility to implement it. Her power and recovery are balanced out somewhat by her weight, similar to how Fox and Falco are balanced by their gimpability and fall-speed.

Most importantly though is her aerial mobility, which gives her lots of potential for deceiving opponents in the hand of a smart player. Tiny adjustments to your spacing and speed can give people the impression you're going one direction when you aren't, or that you're going to be somewhere you won't. This is what gives players like Mango such a huge edge and allows him to work around characters with superior range; he's constantly working to fake out his opponents with subtle movement changes. Puff is a character that lets you work on this kind of mental level excellently. It's almost fair to say she has infinite capacity for mixup as a result.

So putting all that together, it's hard NOT to argue Puff for top tier. It's a large and heavily condensed top tier when you factor in Fox, Falco, Marth and Sheik, but I'd be willing to put her in there somewhere. But NOT in broken tier, or god tier, or even best in the game.

Thank you. ****ing thank you lol. This is what I'm trying to get across. PUFF IS NOT GOD TIER PEOPLE, SHE'S NOT BANNABLE AND SHE'S NOT BROKEN.
She is however, arguably top tier, which is what I am arguing for. Thank you Wobbles lol.

 

[DoctorBendz]

This is addressed to people saying that Jigglypuff is broken:

Why do you fail to consider that Mango and HBox are extremely good players?

M2K used to play Marth and made Marth look unbeatable. Same with Ken. But then M2K also knew way more about the game, was more technically precise and consistent than anybody, and sought to pick the best option for any situation. Ken used crazy reads and risky approaches but they almost always payed off because he could read through most people. As a result of their playstyles (different though they were), Marth appeared to be unstoppable. For more than 4 years.

Look at HBox and Mango. HBox throws out aerials in the general place that people like to move, and then focuses on being safe elsewhere. He essentially exploits people's tendencies and favors safe, consistent play. The riskiest thing about him is the large quantity of rests he goes for, but when you consider how GOOD he is at resting you can hardly count it as a risk at all.

Armada himself said it after Genesis, that he got shook up by one of Mango's rests because he didn't think Mango could read him. That's what Mango does. He sees through your playstyle and hides his own intentions really well; it feels like you can't hit him because he knows where you're going to go, and what you're going to do, so he picks the appropriate counter to it. He's outthinking every other player and it makes Puff look unbeatable by association.

They're both incredibly efficient players who are good at abusing the weaknesses and playstyles of their opponents. That's it. Puff isn't broken. Go away.

--

For people saying she's top-tier: Sure. Why not? Her punishment game is incredibly powerful, she's got the mobility to implement it. Her power and recovery are balanced out somewhat by her weight, similar to how Fox and Falco are balanced by their gimpability and fall-speed.

Most importantly though is her aerial mobility, which gives her lots of potential for deceiving opponents in the hand of a smart player. Tiny adjustments to your spacing and speed can give people the impression you're going one direction when you aren't, or that you're going to be somewhere you won't. This is what gives players like Mango such a huge edge and allows him to work around characters with superior range; he's constantly working to fake out his opponents with subtle movement changes. Puff is a character that lets you work on this kind of mental level excellently. It's almost fair to say she has infinite capacity for mixup as a result.

So putting all that together, it's hard NOT to argue Puff for top tier. It's a large and heavily condensed top tier when you factor in Fox, Falco, Marth and Sheik, but I'd be willing to put her in there somewhere. But NOT in broken tier, or god tier, or even best in the game.

/Thread.

Wobbles wins.

 

[TheManaLord]

This is addressed to people saying that Jigglypuff is broken:

M2K used to play Marth and made Marth look unbeatable. Same with Ken. But then M2K also knew way more about the game, was more technically precise and consistent than anybody, and sought to pick the best option for any situation. Ken used crazy reads and risky approaches but they almost always payed off because he could read through most people. As a result of their playstyles (different though they were), Marth appeared to be unstoppable. For more than 4 years.

Past smash is not as relevant as most persons would believe. People did not know anywhere near as much about the game. People couldn't DI. It was sponsored, there was tons of casuals... it holds a little bit of reference but other than that players of that time period cannot be compared to the much more knowledgeable and stagnated player base we have today.

---

EDIT: She's definitely not broken or ban worthy. Amsah did not do too terribly versus Hbox at all and his experience in NTSC and v Puff is lacking. He played really smart but was still beat out.

To say she can't contend for the first spot is reasonable, but to deny she's top tier (top 3) is not.

 

[john!]

The guy could set the record with any number of drumsticks. Poor analogy...

@ Wobbles: for years Marth was the best character in the game thanks to Ken and M2K being untouchable. Then Puff became the best character because the metagame evolved, and Mango and Hbox became unbeatable. If you suddenly become unstoppable then IC's will become the best in the game, because the metagame will have evolved again. But Marth and Puff are the only two who have ever had the right to be called "best in the game" in the past, because they were dominant in their respective eras.

Mango and Hbox are good because they took a previously high tier character and realized that character's amazingness. This doesn't detract from their accomplishments in any way.... in fact, it takes a huge amount of skill and insight to do something like that.

 

[TheManaLord]

IC's had the potential to become a balancing factor in the metagame but the MBR destroyed that and a lot of TO's followed suit with an anti-wobbling stance.

 

[Overswarm]

IC's had the potential to become a balancing factor in the metagame but the MBR destroyed that and a lot of TO's followed suit with an anti-wobbling stance.

Makes me :'(

 

[Wobbles]

Problem 1: Every time somebody consistently wins with a character, people call that character broken. Every time, every game, every community. The character can clearly be bottom tier, and people will find it unfair if they consistently lose to it.

Back when Recipherous (can't remember the the spelling) was the best player in the US with his Sheik, people thought Sheik was unstoppable. Then he lost in tournament to--go figure--a Jigglypuff from TX named Zulu. Wall of pain, back-airs all day. He believed that it was an impossible strategy to stop and that Jigglypuff was unbeatable. During Ken and then M2K's respective reigns of dominance, people still said Fox was technically the best in the game, but that a good Marth was unbeatable once you took human capabilities and imperfections into account. Now it's HBox and Mango, and people are talking about how broken and unstoppable Puff is.

We know more now, but the better question is, "how much do we have yet to learn and discover? How much better can we get?" Another good question is, "just how much better than everybody are Mango and HBox?" I'm sorry, this pattern just repeats itself too often for me to take it seriously. If I could actually see good demonstrative proof that their character can just shut people down with some magical optimal strategy, then I might.

Edit: The wobbling thing isn't strictly related to the MBR or TOs. It's mostly people thinking "I shouldn't be losing" when somebody infinites them. I got insulted and yelled at by tons of people who said that I was scrubby and gay and bad at the game when I wobbled them. Also that it was "impossible" to beat ICs and to avoid getting grabbed.

Funnily enough, there are many matches I play nowadays where I get only one, maybe two grabs in one game, and most of the time I don't even have Nana with me anymore. Some people adapted and manned up, most didn't.

 

[TheManaLord]

A OHKO move that can be comboed into from tons of her moves at tons of percents, from grabs, OOS to punish things against your shield, to punish recoveries, from your teammates grab and any situation where you can be on your opponent. The freeform movement of this game does not make it difficult whatsoever. An easily applicable OHKO move unbalances any competitive fighter in any form.

I am not saying she's broken I'm just saying that's where the "magics" at. And some characters don't even have useful punishes against a missed rest. It can also go unpunished many times even if it does connect. (star KO's)

 

[Lovage]

Problem 1: Every time somebody consistently wins with a character, people call that character broken. Every time, every game, every community. The character can clearly be bottom tier, and people will find it unfair if they consistently lose to it.

Back when Recipherous (can't remember the the spelling) was the best player in the US with his Sheik, people thought Sheik was unstoppable. Then he lost in tournament to--go figure--a Jigglypuff from TX named Zulu. Wall of pain, back-airs all day. He believed that it was an impossible strategy to stop and that Jigglypuff was unbeatable. During Ken and then M2K's respective reigns of dominance, people still said Fox was technically the best in the game, but that a good Marth was unbeatable once you took human capabilities and imperfections into account. Now it's HBox and Mango, and people are talking about how broken and unstoppable Puff is.

We know more now, but the better question is, "how much do we have yet to learn and discover? How much better can we get?" Another good question is, "just how much better than everybody are Mango and HBox?" I'm sorry, this pattern just repeats itself too often for me to take it seriously. If I could actually see good demonstrative proof that their character can just shut people down with some magical optimal strategy, then I might.

very good post

this isn't going to last forever people. stop complaining

 

[TheManaLord]

Back when players sucked and knowledge of the game wasn't nearly as widespread. Things including... DI LOL

That isn't that great of a point. It still holds a lot of value and is completely possible but how much more is there to know about this game? I'll believe it when I see it. When was the last time SF2 turbo metagame changed? There's a cutoff somewhere, sometime.

 

[Wobbles]

Manalord:

ICs have situational combos into grabs off n-airs, dash-attacks, u-tilts, f-airs, d-airs, tech-chases, shield-grabs, whiffed moves... if the infinite is legal, I can get them in countless ways. I could finish a full 3/5 set and land 12 infinites, getting each one in a different way. Hell, one time I accidentally did a horizontal air-dodge when I meant to wavedash and M2K's Falcon raptor boosted through me. I landed, grabbed him, and KO'ed him.

Marths had to learn to stop f-smashing my shield. Sheiks and Peaches have to space their d-smashes against me properly. Sheik can't even f-tilt when I'm on the ground if I'm below 40 percent because of CC grab into CG into infinite. Foxes and Falcos have to learn how to handle the lag of dealing with two shields or they get shield grabbed. If I just hang onto the edge when edgeguarding and make the other person go high, I typically get a grab when they land from up+b and then I KO them from there with handoffs and smash grabs. I think if Chu adapted just a couple of my grab techniques he'd be back to taking top 3 with ICs only.

People are going to have to adapt their metagame around the current Puff strategies. If they don't, they'll keep getting slaughtered. That's it.

She's good and will always have good tools for landing her rests and gimps, but if she didn't then she'd just be BAD. Every character needs powerful, useful, applicable stuff to be competitive. An OHKO means you've got to be cautious and DI properly and not pressure in the same places you've become accustomed to.

Edit:

Not too long ago one of the top placers at EVO for ST was Afrolegends with his Deejay, a mid-tier character who previously saw no action in top end tournament play.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I was about to say the grab thing to wobbles but it's not just ice climbers and puff. Take fox he can get one shine rack up a lot of damage and get an up-smash of doom or chain throws or whatever. marth(or someone esle) gets a grab on space animals that can easily be a stock I think easier for them than ice climbers.

If people want to whin wow that bad really people playing as the best chartcer in the game whin about one match-up they don't want to learn.

 

[Scar]

Hey guys?

You know why Jiggs is doing so well?


YOU TOOK AWAY HER BAD STAGES.


Bring back stages like Green Greens, Corneria, Pokefloats, Onett, whatever. Stop banning stages because "they're gay" (meaning falcon can't do standard combos because they aren't flat/plat) and you won't see Jiggs dittos all the time.

Seriously.

lolololol

os dude... man. wow. okay. wow.

 

[Zatchiel]

Jigglypuff is top tier....(Silently)

 

[I_R_Hungry]

Wobbles has the best posts on this entire forum and I'm so glad he still spends (wastes?) his time here.

But Marth and Puff are the only two who have ever had the right to be called "best in the game" in the past, because they were dominant in their respective eras.

This is silly and false. Being the "winningest" character is an important title all its own, and it may or may not be the best metric by which to define our tier list. But to translate "winningest" into "best" (meaning "strongest") just doesn't follow.

There are times where a top tier ends up "proving" that a character is better than we thought or whatever, but in those cases they're changing the theory behind the character, its individual matchups, whatever. If Wobbles started dominating with Ice Climbers but in no way did their actual matchups change in any fundamental way, that's Wobbles' skill talking, not the "secretly-best-character-in-the-game-but-not-really" nature of the character. Is it terribly likely for that to happen? Probably not. So sure, most of the time, when a top player is dominant with a certain character, we'll often end up working through the theory enough to the point where that character seems a bit better than we previously believed. But what you seem to be saying is that "by definition, the best characters are the best by sheer virtue of the top players choosing them." And that's just wrong.

An easily applicable OHKO move unbalances any competitive fighter in any form.

And TheManaLord once again shows his complete ineptitude regarding anything theory-based of any kind