Jigglypuff for Top Tier?

[Zatchiel]

Jigglypuff is NOT top tier, she is up in the A tier with fox, but isnt the top....
i should know, im a pro jigglypuff

 

[Lovage]

Hey guys?

You know why Jiggs is doing so well?


YOU TOOK AWAY HER BAD STAGES.


Bring back stages like Green Greens, Corneria, Pokefloats, Onett, whatever. Stop banning stages because "they're gay" (meaning falcon can't do standard combos because they aren't flat/plat) and you won't see Jiggs dittos all the time.

Seriously.

LMFAO this is the worst post of the thread

stick to brawl, dude

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

This is addressed to people saying that Jigglypuff is broken:

Why do you fail to consider that Mango and HBox are extremely good players?

M2K used to play Marth and made Marth look unbeatable. Same with Ken. But then M2K also knew way more about the game, was more technically precise and consistent than anybody, and sought to pick the best option for any situation. Ken used crazy reads and risky approaches but they almost always payed off because he could read through most people. As a result of their playstyles (different though they were), Marth appeared to be unstoppable. For more than 4 years.

Look at HBox and Mango. HBox throws out aerials in the general place that people like to move, and then focuses on being safe elsewhere. He essentially exploits people's tendencies and favors safe, consistent play. The riskiest thing about him is the large quantity of rests he goes for, but when you consider how GOOD he is at resting you can hardly count it as a risk at all.

Armada himself said it after Genesis, that he got shook up by one of Mango's rests because he didn't think Mango could read him. That's what Mango does. He sees through your playstyle and hides his own intentions really well; it feels like you can't hit him because he knows where you're going to go, and what you're going to do, so he picks the appropriate counter to it. He's outthinking every other player and it makes Puff look unbeatable by association.

They're both incredibly efficient players who are good at abusing the weaknesses and playstyles of their opponents. That's it. Puff isn't broken. Go away.

--

For people saying she's top-tier: Sure. Why not? Her punishment game is incredibly powerful, she's got the mobility to implement it. Her power and recovery are balanced out somewhat by her weight, similar to how Fox and Falco are balanced by their gimpability and fall-speed.

Most importantly though is her aerial mobility, which gives her lots of potential for deceiving opponents in the hand of a smart player. Tiny adjustments to your spacing and speed can give people the impression you're going one direction when you aren't, or that you're going to be somewhere you won't. This is what gives players like Mango such a huge edge and allows him to work around characters with superior range; he's constantly working to fake out his opponents with subtle movement changes. Puff is a character that lets you work on this kind of mental level excellently. It's almost fair to say she has infinite capacity for mixup as a result.

So putting all that together, it's hard NOT to argue Puff for top tier. It's a large and heavily condensed top tier when you factor in Fox, Falco, Marth and Sheik, but I'd be willing to put her in there somewhere. But NOT in broken tier, or god tier, or even best in the game.

yey finally a real argument for puff that doesn't center around tournament placement and player performance

 

[john!]

Bleh I've talked about this way too many times. It boils down to a difference in how we explain a top pro's success. You think that two players are so much better than everyone else that they can dominate using a mediocre character, who also happens to be their best. I think that two players are good enough to make us realize that we previously underestimated their character, who is actually amazing but difficult to use. There's no way to prove who is right, but I find my explanation to be more likely. Agree to disagree, I guess...

 

[Zatchiel]

Nope, Nothin..... Im a Pro Jigglypuff in both melee and brawl, ive had difficulties in
Smash bros. one, but never in melee and brawl.....

 

[Strong Badam]

people should spend less time whining about jiggs and more time learning the match-up and developing strategies to combat her

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

We know more now, but the better question is, "how much do we have yet to learn and discover? How much better can we get?" Another good question is, "just how much better than everybody are Mango and HBox?" I'm sorry, this pattern just repeats itself too often for me to take it seriously. If I could actually see good demonstrative proof that their character can just shut people down with some magical optimal strategy, then I might.

Wobbles with some amazing posts in this thread. This is the best point of all though: the only conceivable scenario in which Jiggs is broken is if you actually believe that the meta has no more room for improvement. In all probability, we probably have more left to learn than we have learned so far. So what does that mean? The cycle of character dominance will continue to happen. Character balances will settle down when the meta has stagnated. It obviously hasn't so I wouldn't be worried about Jiggs being broken or anything silly like that.

The great thing about disinterest in Brawl is that we may actually see Melee at its highest level yet. And I believe we are still far from that. ****, Mango is still the only one who Shield DIs with any consistency (Jman was being super cute with that in Pound though, not nearly as well as Mango unfortunately), ground techs were taken to a new level, many new edgeguarding techniques were used, etc. And thats just tech stuff; mindgames, matchup tactics, etc. were expanded so much in so little time...

Jiggs for top tier though? With what we know now, I think thats undeniable. Where exactly she is in that tier is a harder question than if she is top tier or not.

 

[Raistlin]

Lol at people thinking Jigglypuff is the best character in the game. She's amazing, definitely, but not the best. All you have to do to beat her is run away the whole match. She's so slow that you can easily tack on damage with lasers or random aerials. People lose because they get aggressive and make the first move. Once you do that against Jigglypuff, she ****s you up. It is so hard to approach with Jiggs because of her slow speed and lack of projectile, people just fail to realize this because of her aerial mobility.

 

[t3h Icy]

This is my opinion, but Europe's best players (Amsah and Armada in particular) are basically perfect in all aspects, or at least where the character doesn't have much more in for improvement and from where they're at, it's just being consistent and maintaining their level, while further improving their mindgame ability. Armada and Amsah both have "perfect DI" (I don't think it will get much humanly better); Armada's been seen what he can do, but Amsah's ridiculous with double stick DI (watch his matches versus Zhu for a great example). They also have "perfect tech skill" where they can do everything possible with the characters they use, like Armada's amazing Nairing and Amsah's consistency with his needle aiming and charging them, if even just for a split second in between attacks and movement. Their mindgames, control and reaction times are top-notch. The only mistakes they make are if they incorrectly predict an attack or movement from the opponent.

Mango is basically like that for Jigglypuff and pretty much Falco as well, M2K used to be like that with Marth, Sheik and Fox (though he did much better than he has recently at Pound 4). I'm wondering what capabilities other characters have when they reach this state. Being one stock away (twice) from getting first at Genesis with Peach probably was never fathomed until Armada demonstrated just how good a character can be at a perfection level, and him and Amsah did that at Pound 4.

I wonder what a DK or Pichu would look like if they were at this level.

Also note that my use of the word "perfect" in this rambling is what is humanly impossible, with the exception of mindgames.

 

[The Irish Mafia]

Peach is a better character than puff. Is she always PLAYED better? probably not.

 

[The Good Doctor]

Lol at people thinking Jigglypuff is the best character in the game. She's amazing, definitely, but not the best. All you have to do to beat her is run away the whole match. She's so slow that you can easily tack on damage with lasers or random aerials. People lose because they get aggressive and make the first move. Once you do that against Jigglypuff, she ****s you up. It is so hard to approach with Jiggs because of her slow speed and lack of projectile, people just fail to realize this because of her aerial mobility.

If it is as easy as you say, No one would even be discussing this. Just stop, you people just sound like a revolving door.

 

[Atlus8]

I think Jiggs is definitely up in the Top tier section and should now be referred to as one of the Big Bad 5! There are soooo many Foxes, Falcos, Sheik etc. that Puff players can get experience out of! How many people play Jiggs at a smashfest? Not so many! Mango and Hbox have a huge abundance of characters that they get experienced out of! So it is no surprise that they can r@pe every character with their Puff! Is Puff broken character? Hell to the no! People always hate on the dominating character! Man the f**k up everyone!

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

This is my opinion, but Europe's best players (Amsah and Armada in particular) are basically perfect in all aspects, or at least where the character doesn't have much more in for improvement and from where they're at

Ah, the old M2K Marth argument. Perfect robot right? Unfortunately this is untrue for these players almost completely. Amsah learned a lot of the tech chasing techniques of American Sheiks at Pound (which is why he was messing it up a lot in sets; dthrow in PAL doesn't have the same tech chasing as NTSC so he never could do Tope-like techchasing over there). Armada doesn't know a lot of matchups as well as others (Falcon comes to mind; watch how many times he gets ledgehop u-aired against Hax when that set gets uploaded).

Nah man, they are spectacular players, two of the best in the world, but there is a lot of room for improvement for not just them but everyone. Just wait until you see 2011 Amsah before you think 2010 Amsah is perfect.

 

[t3h Icy]

Ah, the old M2K Marth argument. Perfect robot right? Unfortunately this is untrue for these players almost completely. Amsah learned a lot of the tech chasing techniques of American Sheiks at Pound (which is why he was messing it up a lot in sets; dthrow in PAL doesn't have the same tech chasing as NTSC so he never could do Tope-like techchasing over there). Armada doesn't know a lot of matchups as well as others (Falcon comes to mind; watch how many times he gets ledgehop u-aired against Hax when that set gets uploaded).

Nah man, they are spectacular players, two of the best in the world, but there is a lot of room for improvement for not just them but everyone. Just wait until you see 2011 Amsah before you think 2010 Amsah is perfect.

Well like I said, mindgames can never truly be perfected unless you can literally JV5 every opponent. Besides, Armada did beat Hax, but it could have very easily flip-flopped.

Regardless, my point is that other characters playing like Armada or oldschool M2K would be interesting to see.

 

[-ACE-]

Hax is kicking himself right now for that loss... so many missed opportunities. I thought he had it.

<3 Hax

 

[Roneblaster]

1. Name one reliable counter-pick for Fox, Falco, Shiek, Marth. Overall these characters have better matchups in general.

Jigglypuff

No, jiggly puff is not top tier, her meta game is still developing so every time they find out the match up it develops and the matchup has to be adujusted, when her meta game slows down, like it starting to right now, she will get ***** by marth and sheik.

That doesn't make her not top tier, that makes her unfinished.

****s been discussed through and through since the beginning of Mango's rise. The discussion is OVER the MBR has to get off their ****ing fat lazy ***** and do something that helps the community like reflect the changes over the YEARS they've been idle.

A ****ing useless relic.


People are either A. in denial because they don't WANT puff to be the best
or B. stupid if they don't think she IS the best

and I don't care who you are I detest you as a person if you fall under either category.

i like the way you think.

 

[DoctorBendz]

The guy could set the record with any number of drumsticks. Poor analogy...

That's EXACTLY my point. EXACTLY. It doesn't have to do with what he uses, it has to do with how good he is. Why is that SO different with Mango and puff?

I know that characters are deeper than drumsticks (although I imagine drumsticks can be much deeper than you know), but do you honestly think that if Mango dedicated as much time to his secondaries as he did to puff that he wouldn't be winning? If Mango mained Falco would he suddenly lose to everyone? Because that's what a whole lot of people are saying right now, whether they realize it or not.

Wobbles is the only person anyone needs to listen to.

EDIT: This still has nothing to do with me saying jiggs isn't top tier.

**** I said I wasn't gonna post. I need to just never come back to this thread...

 

[`DNS`]

i hate puff cause you can't combo her.. camping is no fun

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Well like I said, mindgames can never truly be perfected unless you can literally JV5 every opponent. Besides, Armada did beat Hax, but it could have very easily flip-flopped.

My point was that they have areas where they can improve beyond mindgames. They still have a ways to go to be perfect in tech skill, approaches, tactics, spacing, etc.

All you have to remember is where we were in 2008 and how much better we are now though we probably didn't think anyone could improve much more. I don't doubt we will have the same thoughts in 2012.

Regardless, my point is that other characters playing like Armada or oldschool M2K would be interesting to see.

Oh for sure. The bottom of the tier list is all a bunch of people guessing ****. No one really knows where Kirby or Pichu should be; they are obviously deficient characters but no one has sat down and actually developed them thoroughly. Occasionally, when low tiers get picked up, we start seeing crazy possibilities for their potential. No one thought DK was half that good until Bum (lol except maybe Japan). And I think everyone knew Bum still had ways to go too.

We probably will never see that level for low tiers though; it takes years of work and the ceiling might only be a top 10 placing at a national.

 

[Tee ay eye]

Nope, Nothin..... Im a Pro Jigglypuff in both melee and brawl, ive had difficulties in
Smash bros. one, but never in melee and brawl.....

okay faab

 

[Vulcan55]

1. Name one reliable counter-pick for Fox, Falco, Shiek, Marth.

Jigglypuff

LOL, good one.

 

[Toobz]

I'm not saying that jigglypuff will be the best character forever. But right now, she certainly is. Every major tourney for more than 2 years have been won by puff. In the capable hands of Mango and Hbox, she has been able crush every opponent, despite which character they play. This shows the current possible metagame for puff. It is more advanced than every other character's metagame, and defeats all the other character's metagames. We know how far puff can go right now because we can SEE IT in the tournament videos and tournament results.

Back during Ken and M2K's reign, Marth was the best character in the game. At that time, he had the most advanced metagame, as shown by Ken and M2K. Now however, Puff has taken over. Why can't the tier list reflect this? Why is the smash community so reluctant to have an evolving tier list to go with an evolving metagame? I don't understand why its such a big deal. A new tier list every year or two is NOT BAD. It just reflects how much the game is changing.

 

[2-2]

edit - ignore

 

[Mew2King]

Jiggs today still have room for improvement. I 4 stocked Jman our first friendly at Winterfest by doing big combos.

Try this out.

Oh but I wanna say something first.

Jiggs aerials Fox once at 0% in the middle of FD then up throw rests. GUARANTEED KO. A grab in the middle of FD with perfect DI will KO fox at 11%, and Jiggs aerials do 12 >_>.

If you want a definite 0-death from a 0% grab, do up throw SH uair to regrab on Fox (yes it does work legit), then up throw rest them if they don't DI, or if they DI forward do pound rest. If they know about DIing the pound towards Jiggs, just do SH fair to regrab (this works if they DI the pound in, which is what people do to avoid the pound to rest combo)

After you SH fair to regrab them, you get a FREE DOWN THROW REST at the edge!! If they DI the down throw into Jiggs or not at all, then it combos to rest from 0 to 100%+!!! (you can F smash if you want to as well instead, or even chain grab!). The only way to avoid this is to DI away, which depending on where you are at, could be off stage, so jiggs can just jump off and fair with no risk to her at all and easily KO you!

Here's another trick you can use. Grab fox at the edge at 0%, and the Fox will expect back throw, and DI up and towards the stage.

SO JUST UP THROW REST THEM. If they don't DI the up throw fully away from Jiggs they will get comboed into a rest (or pound rest if you feel like it but that is unnecessary). So it is literally over a 50% chance of a KO no matter how you look at it in that position. Even with fully away DI (which if you back throw will most likely kill them) you can still link the up throw into a pound rest (unless they do the VERY weird option of DIing towards the stage normally instead of up and towards the stage and THEN DIing the pound towards jiggs where he is still in a horrible position. Odds are greatly, greatly in her favor of an easy KO besides all the free damage and positional advantage she is getting.

There I just named a ton of stuff jiggs don't do yet but can, besides ledge camping with Fair if they felt like it. No one "mastered" their characters yet at all, but Jiggs still has plenty of room for improvement just like the rest' of us.

@ Wobbles - Armada told me a day and a half ago in person at the hotel that he thinks Jiggs should be banned. Mango said Jiggs is dumb after pound4 ended. I don't want Jiggs banned but I do think she deserves it more than MK by comparison. The only thing MK has over Jiggs is that he's WAY more popular and gay stages help him too much which I don't think should be on in the first place. I don't support any banning except gay stages that shouldn't be on like rainbow cruise and brinstar in each game are both super stupid and should be banned.

 

[Moooose]

**** m2k with a recipe for ****

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I really doubt there is a max level in melee even if you powersheilded everything(100%) you can still lose from grabs and being punished for attacking at bad times.

 

[ETWIST51294]

M2K, HOW ABOUT YOU LOOK FOR STUFF FOR MARTH AND FOX INSTEAD OF HELPING JlGGS OUT. JIGGS IS GAY ENOUGH, WE DON'T NEED HER TO BE GAYER.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

God ****it M2K, if you could just write posts like that about Marth all the time I'd be so much better

 

[Zephil]

It's not a troll post. Characters make the player. The player merely makes up for the difference.

ok then from your point of view Taj sucks ... I don´t think so

 

[xbombr]

lol After reading that I think M2K should look into a Jiggs secondary.

 

[Igcoris]

lol After reading that I think M2K should look into a Jiggs secondary.

if that happened, i'd quit melee.

 

[VGmasta]

people should spend less time whining about jiggs and more time learning the match-up and developing strategies to combat her

Or they should just use Doctor Mario for a counterpick against Puff.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Isn't puff's grab game (not throw game) pretty sub par, though? short arms, low run speed... it seems pretty hard to get grabs with her

 

[Turazrok]

if that happened, i'd quit melee.

QFT. He should find a guaranteed 0-death on all characters with pichu.

 

[illboyzeus]

Doc is not a counter against jiggs lol, thats such bs...

Jiggs is the best in the game until a fox or falco can play technically flawless. Then they will be the best in the game again. The effort a puff has to exert is far less than that of any other char trying to beat her. add on the ohko and you have a great char. Mango is far and away the best player in the world, but hbox is a great player as well. I think the discontent comes from the style of play that hbox uses(its gay but get the money while you can breh). Mango has a very aggresive random as hell entertaining puff. Hbox is pretty much bair and rests. I can understand people getting pissed that something so seemingly simple can win against player putting forth much more effort.

That being said jiggs isn't broken, just gay as ****. But this is the smash scene which whines about every ****ing thing. and I loathe playing jiggs, pretty much any jiggs is a chore to play against. bad ones get ***** but its such a ****ing chore...but people need to man up and figure it out. M2K looked unstoppable and people called his style gay, now you got him calling out puff. It seems the community just dickrides one movement after another. This year falcons might start destroying the comp, then he'll be broken too.

I will say this though, jiggs supposed vulnerabilities are vastly overrated. she's floaty, but isn't dying below 80 if the jiggs knows whats it doing. she has a bad approach, but that is bs too considering she has the godlike bair with outranges everything and she can throw them out without punishment. And therein lies her supposed weaknesses, shes floaty and has a bad approach. I don't see it. Not saying shes perfect or anything but the other top tier chars have much more abusable weaknesses to prey upon. And don't let a jiggs get a stock lead, jeez.

but even though shes wack as hell as a character and makes melee boring playing against her, shes by no means broken. To this point she is the best until players can tap into that well and play a flawless technical game.




And sveet seriously, just stop.

 

[Toobz]

Doc is not a counter against jiggs lol, thats such bs...

Jiggs is the best in the game until a fox or falco can play technically flawless. Then they will be the best in the game again. The effort a puff has to exert is far less than that of any other char trying to beat her. add on the ohko and you have a great char. Mango is far and away the best player in the world, but hbox is a great player as well. I think the discontent comes from the style of play that hbox uses(its gay but get the money while you can breh). Mango has a very aggresive random as hell entertaining puff. Hbox is pretty much bair and rests. I can understand people getting pissed that something so seemingly simple can win against player putting forth much more effort.

That being said jiggs isn't broken, just gay as ****. But this is the smash scene which whines about every ****ing thing. and I loathe playing jiggs, pretty much any jiggs is a chore to play against. bad ones get ***** but its such a ****ing chore...but people need to man up and figure it out. M2K looked unstoppable and people called his style gay, now you got him calling out puff. It seems the community just dickrides one movement after another. This year falcons might start destroying the comp, then he'll be broken too.

I will say this though, jiggs supposed vulnerabilities are vastly overrated. she's floaty, but isn't dying below 80 if the jiggs knows whats it doing. she has a bad approach, but that is bs too considering she has the godlike bair with outranges everything and she can throw them out without punishment. And therein lies her supposed weaknesses, shes floaty and has a bad approach. I don't see it. Not saying shes perfect or anything but the other top tier chars have much more abusable weaknesses to prey upon. And don't let a jiggs get a stock lead, jeez.

but even though shes wack as hell as a character and makes melee boring playing against her, shes by no means boring. To this point she is the best until players can tap into that well and play a flawless technical game.




And sveet seriously, just stop.

AMEN. You and I are on the same level. I posted something very similar to this on page 23. I'm glad someone else thinks like I do.

ALSO:

I'm not saying that jigglypuff will be the best character forever. But right now, she certainly is. Every major tourney for more than 2 years have been won by puff. In the capable hands of Mango and Hbox, she has been able crush every opponent, despite which character they play. This shows the current possible metagame for puff. It is more advanced than every other character's metagame, and defeats all the other character's metagames. We know how far puff can go right now because we can SEE IT in the tournament videos and tournament results.

Back during Ken and M2K's reign, Marth was the best character in the game. At that time, he had the most advanced metagame, as shown by Ken and M2K. Now however, Puff has taken over. Why can't the tier list reflect this? Why is the smash community so reluctant to have an evolving tier list to go with an evolving metagame? I don't understand why its such a big deal. A new tier list every year or two is NOT BAD. It just reflects how much the game is changing.

Anyone want to comment on this? An evolving tier list for an evolving metagame. Whats to hate?

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

wow I saw it say 61 people were veiwing melee discusstion. But HOw something is broken is when t's unstoppable there is NOTHING you can do about it like laser camping on hyrule or the freeze glitch there are some unfair things like waveshining agaist a wall but it takes skill and doesn't work on everyone. puff bairs you don't have to run into it and it's not like you can't escape it she only covers one side/angle top speed like every sec. 1/10 of a sec there is hitbox out like 10% of the time at max.... not broken you simplely don't know how to deal with it.

But noobs and whiny people should deal with it, i've seen some amazing johns as pichu my brother was tired of getting juggled and whinned all I had to do is up-air win wtf peoplestop crying get better have some pride when you lose. I mean I'm agiast chain throwing and wtf camping so I don't do it really if people do it to me all that means it they are punishing me differently than a fancy combo. YOu can still di and not get grabed. Really even when i'm pichu vs sheik snf I only got 22%(lol 2 good) I don't john I laugh at down-throw and try to learn. THat's a 100000000000000000000000000> -14 match-up staight up but I believe it's truely my fault that I lost It's my fault I got grabbed, it's my fault I didn't pick______, my fault I don't know the match-up, my fault I have no clue how I would even play that match-up. Sheik isn't like wtf broken she has flaws(help anybody?) she can get hit I got 22% some how. I smiled other people cryed. also I smiled because I would switch to ice climber next.

QFT. He should find a guaranteed 0-death on all characters with pichu.

pichu can O death a FEW people by tech chasing like fox, falcon, bowser, (maybe sheik you COULD take her up to roughy 60% with d-throw tech chase then pummel up-throw dair give like 90% on her) roy or whatever.

give more ideas m2k

 

[Raistlin]

If it is as easy as you say, No one would even be discussing this. Just stop, you people just sound like a revolving door.

I don't even know what you're trying to say here. Revolving door? Whatever. And I'm not saying that camping is fullproof, but it is definitely much more effective than any other playstyle against her. She can't keep up with the other characters, so if you don't approach, she is forced to approach you, which means you won't have as many opportunities to screw up. Try to think before just dismissing **** out of hand. I'm a Jiggs main, I think I know what I'm talking about.

 

[Toobz]

I don't even know what you're trying to say here. Revolving door? Whatever. And I'm not saying that camping is fullproof, but it is definitely much more effective than any other playstyle against her. She can't keep up with the other characters, so if you don't approach, she is forced to approach you, which means you won't have as many opportunities to screw up. Try to think before just dismissing **** out of hand. I'm a Jiggs main, I think I know what I'm talking about.

I'm not saying its not POSSIBLE. I'm saying once a jiggs gets good at camping and landing rests, there's not much of a chance for any character at this point in the metagame. Sure its possible, but IT HASN'T HAPPENED YET. Puffs still dominate. I wish people would read my god**** posts.

 

[Raistlin]

I'm not saying its not POSSIBLE. I'm saying once a jiggs gets good at camping and landing rests, there's not much of a chance for any character at this point in the metagame. Sure its possible, but IT HASN'T HAPPENED YET. Puffs still dominate. I wish people would read my god**** posts.

you apparently did not see who i quoted lol