Jigglypuff for Top Tier?

[Rubyiris]

honestly, i don't play this game to wait around. that's why i picked the most offensive (imo) character, falco.

i agree though. more mistakes are made approaching than camping, but like hell i'm gonna turn a game of melee into something brawl like.

Camping originated in SSB64. People need to stop associating camping with Brawl.

It's a winning strategy people, and it's a competitive game. People are being scrubs for not camping.

Btw I'm no exception, but at least I can acknowledge that camping is too good. It's also a large reason why most of the stages are banned in the first place.

 

[Igcoris]

i'm less exposed to 64 than brawl, so i wouldn't know anyways.

doing everything to win ie gay stages/camping, is like punching a dude in the balls. leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

the reason i picked up melee was to not camp. if melee's metagame evolves to camping, i'm gonna rage quit a lot more than i usually do.

 

[Rubyiris]

i'm less exposed to 64 than brawl, so i wouldn't know anyways.

doing everything to win ie gay stages/camping, is like punching a dude in the balls. leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

the reason i picked up melee was to not camp. if melee's metagame evolves to camping, i'm gonna rage quit a lot more than i usually do.

I highly doubt anyone will resort to this. Hell, players APOLOGISE for chain grabbing people. What kind of a ****ty *** mindset is that?

All this says is that melee players for the most part treat this game as if the rule of cool dictates the entire game, and shun people for using actual, winning strategies.

Hbox is a genius but he gets alot of crap. M2K back in the day apparently received a lot of hate for his efficient/gay play style.

It's been said a few times in the past, but gay is synonymous to playing correctly. People need to accept this.

 

[PottyJokes]

jiggs is a brawl char in melee broooken

 

[Requiem]

I loled at how all of them are ****ty *** players who obviously don't understand this game. It's not even theorybrothers. It's the truth of things.

Also no, people haven't even started to attempt to camp Jigglypuff. Everyone still approaches her like its the only possible option.

He might be a complete ********/******, but this man is right in the things he's said about camping and people playing gay.

What happened ruby, did you decide that since being an emo kid didn't work out, that a ******** was probably the way to go?

(I like the change though)


edit: I hate the dang censor, the stars (in both places) are a combination of the male sexual organ, and the word head.

 

[Rubyiris]

He might be a complete ********/******, but this man is right in the things he's said about camping and people playing gay.

What happened ruby, did you decide that since being an emo kid didn't work out, that a ******** was probably the way to go?

(I like the change though)


edit: I hate the dang censor, the stars (in both places) are a combination of the male sexual organ, and the word head.

Partially. I realized that people have treated me like crap ever since I joined the boards, with little, or no reason what so ever.

"Treat people like you want to be treated."

I've tried being nice, and I've tried figuring out why people dislike me, but none of that work, so **** it.

Plus Forward said I'm more entertaining when I'm being a *****. Gotta listen to my smash idol. ;D

 

[Rubyiris]

jiggs is a brawl char in melee broooken

If anything, most of the brawl cast wishes they were Jigglypuff.

 

[Requiem]

He's right. Your posts are hilerious now, and alot of them have a good amount of truth in them.

Way to be a rebel I guess.

 

[Igcoris]

chain grabbing is part of the game. if you get grabbed, you obviously made a mistake, and should be punished accordingly. i loved watching ken and m2k 'cause chain grabbing and gimping to death looked amazing to me.

i rarely give jiggs players crap. i just wanted to say that camping isn't the absolute last resort to take out this jigglypuff reign, it's just the safest. (and most boring)

 

[Requiem]

So you're saying that we must come up with a whole new way to approach her.












































That no one has thought of yet.

 

[Rubyiris]

So you're saying that we must come up with a whole new way to approach her.












































That no one has thought of yet.

Play Falco
Have Forward/Lambchops level laser game
Have amazing spacing
????
Profit!

 

[Requiem]

Does forward actually still play?

 

[Rubyiris]

Does forward actually still play?

Yes.

He mostly plays Brawl at the moment, but yeah he does play Melee.

He's the biggest flake ever. As good as his spacies is, he's always alternating between fox/falco/falcon/marth, skewing his practice with each character.

There was a period where he played only puff for like a month or two, then he played peach for another month of two, then played pure sheik until m2k like 3 stocked him at devastation.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

At the risk of being as repetitive about my character as ICG, why doesn't someone pick up marth and just try to out space her? i mean, you don't have to worry about tech skill, she can't really gimp you and as long as you don't fsmash in the wrong spots you won't get rested as punishment for moves.

 

[Rubyiris]

At the risk of being as repetitive about my character as ICG, why doesn't someone pick up marth and just try to out space her? i mean, you don't have to worry about tech skill, she can't really gimp you and as long as you don't fsmash in the wrong spots you won't get rested as punishment for moves.

I've thought about trying this. I did like, 8 months ago, but I hated when Puff finally got in on me because I made a mistake, and I hated having my nuts squeezed firmly until I lost a stock.

At least spacies have that wonderful panic button called Shine, which forces characters to stop sexually molesting their stocks.

 

[Requiem]

At the risk of being as repetitive about my character as ICG, why doesn't someone pick up marth and just try to out space her? i mean, you don't have to worry about tech skill, she can't really gimp you and as long as you don't fsmash in the wrong spots you won't get rested as punishment for moves.

I agree with you.


Only one thing: Edgehog ledgehop rest.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

yea but you gotta accept your stock losses sometime.

plus if you're lucky you will be a high % and be able to DI directly to the blast zone and come back fast with a fully charged neutral b to take the stock right back.

 

[Rubyiris]

yea but you gotta accept your stock losses sometime.

plus if you're lucky you will be a high % and be able to DI directly to the blast zone and come back fast with a fully charged neutral b to take the stock right back.

I don't think any smart jigglupuff player would risk a high percentage rest KO unless they had like at least a full-stock lead, or if it was for game,

 

[Requiem]

I don't think any smart jigglupuff player would risk a high percentage rest KO unless they had like at least a full-stock lead, or if it was for game,

They sometimes do. But shouldn't.

 

[Overswarm]

I'm wondering if people can double stick Jiggs' rest and pull an amash. That'd be a pretty epic counter to resting Marth's up+b.

 

[Requiem]

I'm wondering if people can double stick Jiggs' rest and pull an amash. That'd be a pretty epic counter to resting Marth's up+b.

I'm pretty sure there was some discussion about it, and ken shut everyone up by showing it was possible o.o;

 

[Paix]

Mango and Hbox could be really gay if they wanted to by timing out matches (when they're winning ofc) by using Sing over and over lol

 

[Requiem]

Mango and Hbox could be really gay if they wanted to by timing out matches (when they're winning ofc) by using Sing over and over lol

I'm not sure, but I believe that this is not a perfect stalling method.

Stalling methods are mostly banned though so I don't give a ****.

 

[Overswarm]

I'm pretty sure there was some discussion about it, and ken shut everyone up by showing it was possible o.o;

Well it seems someone needs to look at frame data for (character that is mostly shut down by rest) and Jiggs and find out:

-what moves Jiggs has taht can be punished on block
-what moves you can use on a blocking jiggs that can't be punished
-what moves out-prioritize Jiggs fair and bair
-common situations where you are rested

Once you find that out, you can see if a character can go toe-to-toe with Jiggs by actually fighting her. You can even the score by calling the rest on your recovery and double sticking it to tech... which would give you a free KO.


Other than that, I still say laser camp all day.

I'm not sure, but I believe that this is not a perfect stalling method.

You can't fall asleep in the air, so you can just jump and grab the ledge and Jiggs basically kills herself.

 

[Requiem]

Well it seems someone needs to look at frame data for (character that is mostly shut down by rest) and Jiggs and find out:

-what moves Jiggs has taht can be punished on block
-what moves you can use on a blocking jiggs that can't be punished
-what moves out-prioritize Jiggs fair and bair
-common situations where you are rested

Once you find that out, you can see if a character can go toe-to-toe with Jiggs by actually fighting her. You can even the score by calling the rest on your recovery and double sticking it to tech... which would give you a free KO.


Other than that, I still say laser camp all day.




You can't fall asleep in the air, so you can just jump and grab the ledge and Jiggs basically kills herself.

I also feel lazer camping is simply the way to go.

anywho, you said framedata

So let's try to summon Magus D:


How come all of you ancient backroom members are suddenly posting (in the melee section) btw? o__o

 

[Overswarm]

I recognize easily solvable problems and can see a pattern that has shown its face a million times before.

The game will continue to grow "smaller" in terms of options though. Can't stop that. As the stage list grows smaller, less characters and strategies become viable. As that happens, less people have secondaries that matter. It just goes on like that.

 

[Requiem]

I recognize easily solvable problems and can see a pattern that has shown its face a million times before.

The game will continue to grow "smaller" in terms of options though. Can't stop that. As the stage list grows smaller, less characters and strategies become viable. As that happens, less people have secondaries that matter. It just goes on like that.

The only problem I have with that statement, is that in the metagame we have now, arguably more characters are playable (and viewed as tourney viable) than before.

 

[Overswarm]

The only problem I have with that statement, is that in the metagame we have now, arguably more characters are playable (and viewed as tourney viable) than before.

You would be incorrect. You're experiencing the results of the "death throes" of a game. Since Melee took a big hit from Brawl, you're just seeing a lot more consolidation of players and thus more sporadic results at lower levels. At higher levels you'll see more of a choking factor as time goes on; people will win or lose based on matchups because the gameplay is more limited than it ws before. More knowledge, less stages, more experience, less room for creativity... It'll take a lot of dedication to break the status quo at this point.

 

[gm jack]

You would be incorrect. You're experiencing the results of the "death throes" of a game. Since Melee took a big hit from Brawl, you're just seeing a lot more consolidation of players and thus more sporadic results at lower levels. At higher levels you'll see more of a choking factor as time goes on; people will win or lose based on matchups because the gameplay is more limited than it ws before. More knowledge, less stages, more experience, less room for creativity... It'll take a lot of dedication to break the status quo at this point.

You mean like jiggs did out of nowhere at Pound 3?

 

[KirbyKaze]

It's funny that Rubyiris has a lot of merit to his posts.

 

[Overswarm]

You mean like jiggs did out of nowhere at Pound 3?

This was not out of nowhere.

 

[Requiem]

Though I do see where you are going, isn't it still true that you still see alot of different play styles, and different characters placing pretty decent at large tournaments (axe, kage, etc)?

The only thing that is ****ing this up is the jigglypuff MU. It's really the only MU that I see binding people to having to play a different style/character (camping fox).
whereas tournaments used to excist of sheik, fox, falco, and marth?

 

[gm jack]

This was not out of nowhere.

IIRC, people were saying for ages that it was just that people didn't know the match up. I know Mango was doing well before, but nothing on the scale of that. The point it, a decent character in a well, but not excellently regarded (truth of that is obviously debatable) went and beat a string of some of the best players in the game using what were supposed to be the best characters in the game. The same is unlikely to happen without a massive revelation in the metagame of a character, but a couple rmay find tricks to give jiggs a hard time, so becoming a popular secondary to beat jiggs with, if nothing else.

The closest I can think of is brawl and bowser with his theoretically possible but practically impossible to keep up chaingrab on MK. Considering how Bowser does against MK anyway (surprising well), it could have given MK a slight counter. Didn't work because of the sheer impossibility of doing the maths in your head at the rate required to force a ground release, but the point still could apply.

Any character in the roster could find a trick against jiggs which could give her a counter. If jiggs is dominating tournaments, then these tricks could still surface, despite how deep the metagame is at the moment. Could just be a better player come along with another character. Maybe we will get a Marth who can zone completely robotically with Hbox style safe play, but with a sword. Or maybe Foxes will get better to the point where they don't make a punishable mistake, just through keeping their endurance up for a whole match.

 

[Overswarm]

IIRC, people were saying for ages that it was just that people didn't know the match up. I know Mango was doing well before, but nothing on the scale of that. The point it, a decent character in a well, but not excellently regarded (truth of that is obviously debatable) went and beat a string of some of the best players in the game using what were supposed to be the best characters in the game. The same is unlikely to happen without a massive revelation in the metagame of a character, but a couple rmay find tricks to give jiggs a hard time, so becoming a popular secondary to beat jiggs with, if nothing else.

People still say it's because they don't know the Jiggs matchup XD

But yeah, such revelations are possible, but unlikely. It was not out of nowhere at all though. KillaOR's Jiggs is laughable compared to Mango's Jiggs now, but it still did some damage back in the day. Later on we saw King and he really showed people what was up. King's double dominance with Jiggs was something to be in awe of, and it really got people talking about Jiggs. King did some stuff that people hadn't seen before; he was known as "the marth killer" because previously, Marth always beat Jiggs. Always.

It was a slow rise for Jiggs, but Mango was on top of it when he won Pound. He built off of what others had started, and I don't think anyone back then would have said Jiggs was worthless.

If you saw Doc come and win a national this summer? THAT would be out of nowhere. There is literally zero high level Doc mains. Ever.

I could see Doc coming up as a crazy secondary for someone. Doc doesn't do poorly vs. Jiggs at all. But tearing through the bracket? Unlikely without a ton of matchup history to look off of.

The closest I can think of is brawl and bowser with his theoretically possible but practically impossible to keep up chaingrab on MK. Considering how Bowser does against MK anyway (surprising well), it could have given MK a slight counter. Didn't work because of the sheer impossibility of doing the maths in your head at the rate required to force a ground release, but the point still could apply.

Any character in the roster could find a trick against jiggs which could give her a counter. If jiggs is dominating tournaments, then these tricks could still surface, despite how deep the metagame is at the moment. Could just be a better player come along with another character. Maybe we will get a Marth who can zone completely robotically with Hbox style safe play, but with a sword. Or maybe Foxes will get better to the point where they don't make a punishable mistake, just through keeping their endurance up for a whole match.

Tis possibleh!

 

[Rubyiris]

It's funny that Rubyiris has a lot of merit to his posts.

I find it more funny that people are only acknowledging this AFTER I start acting like an *******.

 

[Overswarm]

I find it more funny that people are only acknowledging this AFTER I start acting like an *******.

It's the only way to go.

 

[Jam Stunna]

Any character in the roster could find a trick against jiggs which could give her a counter. If jiggs is dominating tournaments, then these tricks could still surface, despite how deep the metagame is at the moment. Could just be a better player come along with another character. Maybe we will get a Marth who can zone completely robotically with Hbox style safe play, but with a sword. Or maybe Foxes will get better to the point where they don't make a punishable mistake, just through keeping their endurance up for a whole match.

Reverse Blazer damit

Spoiler

Roy's my boy

 

[KirbyKaze]

D-tilt --> Up+B

KOs at like 70 on FD with Roy but some skill is required.

 

[gm jack]

You were definitely right about the brawl comparison. Brawl is so match up based, player have to adapt their playstyle for different characters to exploit their opponents weaknesses and hide their own. I see a lot of people claiming they struggle with a supposedly advantaged match up because "they don't have the right style". In that case, deal with it. In brawl, even MK players need to adapt their play for Snake and IC (can't hit Snake to much or get grenade countered, have to air camp IC to not get grabbed).

Jiggs has a ridiculous punishment game, which everyone knows about. She also excels at bating moves, so everything falls into place for her quite nicely. Now, all you can control is getting baited. Against jiggs, never try and play a risk:reward ratio game, as a single error gets punished by death (or a decent chunk of them anyway. Play as infuriatingly safely as possible and don't et jiggs bait you into doing something stupid. Choke and go for a kill move and you may get punished for it. Just because they are at kill percents doesn't mean you have to kill them. Just let kills come, but don't get hit.


TL;DR
A lot of theory-core, but jiggs can't beat out everything. Safety seems the more reasonable solution to a character based on punishing.

 

[KirbyKaze]

That would be dandy if she actually was just based on pure punishment.

Even without her monster punishes, she still fares well. Her pokes are insane. She's also basically guaranteed to take more hits than you (even if she winds up dying at a lower percent) because of her resistance to combos, gimps, and edgeguarding. I guess there might be exceptions like Fox if he lands an U-smash or Ice Climbers if they get a ledge chain grab or Wobble going but other than those, pretty much anything you try on her is escapable or a two-hit string whereas she has reasonable combo potential most of the time.

It's not just the punishment that makes her good, really. It's the punishment on top of everything else.