Jigglypuff for Top Tier?

[Smasher89]

Nice trick against puff, roys reverse up-b tipper, KOs in as low% as 0 at certain stages (with very good spacing from roy so it cant be DI'd =)

Something thats is probably even better,, and with more chars: techskill up, play too fast for puff to have a chance to react...

 

[KirbyKaze]

If they CC it Roy is sad.

If they DI it away Roy is sad.

 

[gm jack]

That would be dandy if she actually was just based on pure punishment.

Even without her monster punishes, she still fares well. Her pokes are insane. She's also basically guaranteed to take more hits than you (even if she winds up dying at a lower percent) because of her resistance to combos, gimps, and edgeguarding. I guess there might be exceptions like Fox if he lands an U-smash or Ice Climbers if they get a ledge chain grab or Wobble going but other than those, pretty much anything you try on her is escapable or a two-hit string whereas she has reasonable combo potential most of the time.

It's not just the punishment that makes her good, really. It's the punishment on top of everything else.

Which is why I focused on safety. People seem to know she ca't really be comboed, but on the livestream of pound, people still kept trying and being punished for it. Armada - Mango at Genesis was fairly combo free. Armada gave quick strings, or just single hits, then backed off, got a turnip and reset the situation. For character with priority and/or range advantages, I think this is how the matchup should be played. Yes I know Armada lost, but that was because Mango is just insanely good and got him figured out, so didn't have to react so much, as he already had a good idea of what Armada was going to do.

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

I've thought about trying this. I did like, 8 months ago, but I hated when Puff finally got in on me because I made a mistake, and I hated having my nuts squeezed firmly until I lost a stock.

At least spacies have that wonderful panic button called Shine, which forces characters to stop sexually molesting their stocks.

Ruby, you're funny

 

[Dark Sonic]

Some characters bodies lift pretty high off the ground during their hitlag animation, preventing double stick techs past low percentages (because of the ASDI not being enough to make the character reach the ground). Heck, Marth can't even double stick tech THE KNEE past 40%, and that move has a fairly low angle when compared to rest.

Not every character is CAPABLE of double stick teching the way you see it shown in Magus's cool video. Pretty sure he actually had a list of characters who lifted too high to do it somewhere (hey if we're lucky, Shiek might be able to double stick tech rest or something <_<)

 

[Overswarm]

Some characters bodies lift pretty high off the ground during their hitlag animation, preventing double stick techs past low percentages (because of the ASDI not being enough to make the character reach the ground). Heck, Marth can't even double stick tech THE KNEE past 40%, and that move has a fairly low angle when compared to rest.

Not every character is CAPABLE of double stick teching the way you see it shown in Magus's cool video. Pretty sure he actually had a list of characters who lifted too high to do it somewhere (hey if we're lucky, Shiek might be able to double stick tech rest or something <_<)

That'd be a helluva mindgame.

Run in and dash grab, get crouch rested, double stick tech to fully charged u-smash.


o_O

 

[JPOBS]

to give some light on the topic of Jiggs Vs character X

First of all, at this point i find it unlikely that we will find a new method of fighting/countering jiggs with any of the top tiers if we havent already. Jiggs pplayers already have too much experience vs the top tiers and the top tiers have been trying (unsuccessfully) to find a answer to her for almost 3 years now.
The only solution which comes to mind is camping but thats another story.

However, one thing which we havent started looking at are possible lower tier'd semi-counters to puff.
Im going to throw out Doc mario for arguments sake.

lets start with rest. How does jiggs lands generally?

upthrow, jab reset, uptilt, falling upair, recovery rest, rest OOS (vs laggy attacks, normally would-be killing moves), crouch rest

i may have missed a few. But the point is all of the top tiers fall into some combination of 2-3 of these relatively frequently. Doc on the other hand, doesnt fall for any of them other than MAYBE recovery rest but you can do things like pill to force her t either grab the ledge early (which is bad cuz she has a slow ledge jump so she cant refreash invincibility frames) or get hit and stay on stage lol.

anyway, obviously theres other things she can do like straight of WoP doc, or other ways of fighting vs him, but doc instrinsically take away the most broken thing about jiggs just by nature of his char.I've got more i want to say on this topic if others are interested in hearing/debating it.

tl:dr top tiers wotn find anything "new" to beat jiggs with, lets start looking at lower tier matches

 

[X1-12]

Some characters bodies lift pretty high off the ground during their hitlag animation, preventing double stick techs past low percentages (because of the ASDI not being enough to make the character reach the ground). Heck, Marth can't even double stick tech THE KNEE past 40%, and that move has a fairly low angle when compared to rest.

Not every character is CAPABLE of double stick teching the way you see it shown in Magus's cool video. Pretty sure he actually had a list of characters who lifted too high to do it somewhere (hey if we're lucky, Shiek might be able to double stick tech rest or something <_<)

I'm inclined to disagree

I'm sure the magus post said that some characters hitboxes disform during high hitlang, mainly electrical attacks, the exceptions were like puff, ICs, DK, G&W and M2 I think. The electricalness of the knee probably deforms the hitbox but most attacks dont (iirc) i would assume rest doesn't thus it can be DS teched




ALSO


how to play against jiggs

General tips
Be gay, dont try to combo much

as marth - simple
Jabs and F-tilts - do NOT F-smash do NOT attack her sheild

as falco - most complex
DD around and SHFFL D-airs, run away and laser lots, don't try to combo, if you do a d-air and the puff is out of shine range just run away, if you can shine her the do so but then just run away full hop lasers. at like 40% you got d-air to upsmash/side smash. do NOT get grabbed or hit off the side, don't be afraid to spam lasers or do one attack then run away again

as falcon
dont extend combos too much, dont attack her shield, land aerials behind her

erm i dunno anything about sheik/fox so i'll leave that up to someone else

 

[Blea Gelo]

puff is right where she is.. what happened when ken was the god of smash and then m2k came? the king wsnt good enoth? and no more jiffs were good enouth?.. fox marth sheik top tiers, then falco peach and jiggs.. what happen is mango and hungrybox are just really good.. if u see the other positions of the tournament, u wont see another jiggs in the other top 10 maybe u wont see another jiggsin the top 19. . . so thers no excuses.. u always play in a kill %? dude, wtf.. have u seen marth? fox? both of them fking kill u fast.. jigs wont die wif a shine, thats so true, but u have lasers, fox is12312532 times faster than jiggs, and can fking camp her really well. and u smash at 70 80 percent for jiggs means death. . . lets be clear in this, the only one who was doing something before armada came was m2k, wif marth, and everybody loved, the way he killed jiggs wif a sweetspotted fsmash, mango started to beat him, thats true. lemme ask u something, does that mean that jiggs has a good matcuop vs marth? if u say yes, no offense, but ur fking stupid . . . watch priorities, watch range, watch fking everything.. m2k just sucks at that matchup, and thers not a lot of good marths right now.. marth, fox, sheik, top tiers, falco, peach, jiggs med.. thats all.. just thiunk about it, dont let ur brain think because of the tournaments results, just think, REALLY think, about matchups, marth and jiggs matchup, fox and jiggz matchup, and even sheik can do good vs jiggs.. who would fking think that a peach was coming and was the character who would be more near of taking a tourament to mango?.. mango is just another smashgod that its hard to take out off.. just as m2k, and ken. . . we just have to practice,and see who of us, all the players in the world, would be able to take him out.. dontthink that way, *** i hate that. i bet that if a bowser comes and beat mango, nowser would be fking high tier because u fking say so.. dont think that way.. these players are just good. mango does good wif fox and falco two, so wtf.. didnt mango fking three stocked hbox's jiggs in winterfest wif fox?? didnt he?? dam

 

[-ACE-]

lemme ask u something, does that mean that jiggs has a good matcuop vs marth? if u say yes, no offense, but ur fking stupid . . . watch priorities, watch range, watch fking everything.. m2k just sucks at that matchup

Lol. Look's like someone is forgetting about puff's superior aerial mobility. If marth never falls for a single mindgame, yeah he ***** puff. As long as we're talking about reality, the matchup is almost even imo.

 

[`Jammin' Jobus]

jiggs punishing makes up for every one of her flaws. kind of like peach who is primarily a punishing type of character. I mean it in the sense that peach should just spam turnips and safe floats and wait for em to **** up and dsmash em or if they lag on your sheild nair out of it then do her really easy follow ups (ie more dmash, dash attack, uair, etc etc). thats how i play my peach anyways. Jiggs just punishes so much harder. instead of nair oos its rest oos. Instead of chain grabbing its uthrow rest and take peaches great edgeguarding and make it a lot better. I dunno I just cant see how jiggs is below peach. Jiggs deff better than CF and a bit better than peach. Top tier should be
fox
falco
sheik
marth
jiggs

 

[-ACE-]

fox
falco
sheik
marth
jiggs

I think that's legit. I don't really see a problem with 5 players being in the top tier

edit: didn't necessarily mean in this order lol

 

[Mew2King]

yes dude it's just me that sucks in the matchup

she doesn't tkae top 2-3 at every big tourney

..

>_>

amsah got 3-0d and armada wants her banned and mango even said she's dumb. i don't support banning but that at least should say something about the characters goodness. Seeing ANYONE put her as 5th best is disgusting at this point in the metagame.

 

[null55]

**** .

 

[`Jammin' Jobus]

how would rank top 5?


I dont feel like i can safely put jiggs ahead of any of those 4 characters yet... but i could see why someone would.

 

[X1-12]

yes dude it's just me that sucks in the matchup

she doesn't tkae top 2-3 at every big tourney

..

>_>

amsah got 3-0d and armada wants her banned and mango even said she's dumb. i don't support banning but that at least should say something about the characters goodness. Seeing ANYONE put her as 5th best is disgusting at this point in the metagame.

ok i didn't see you vs mango at pound4 but if its like the first match you vs mango at RoM (only marth/jiggs i could find) then tbh you're playing way too reckless I know i'm just some scrub but seriously

dont jump
dont use any smash attacks
only grab her if she's sheilding

 

[-ACE-]

I hope you're taking notes M2K.

 

[X1-12]

I hope you're taking notes M2K.

i keep thinking m2k is gonna appear behind me and murder me for being too darn irritating

 

[Strong Badam]

fox
jiggs
falco
sheik
peach
marth
falcon
doc
ic's
samus
ganondorf
dk
luigi
Mario
link/pika
everyone else

 

[-ACE-]

Lol. Such Ganon hate.

 

[choknater]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4GdGSnhr_c&feature=related

what is going on in the wo-

 

[x After Dawn x]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeitijKtPSA

reason why jiggs should be banned. it takes a fox and a falcon to pull that **** off, but jigglypuff can do it by herself WITH HER HANDS.

banhammer now.

 

[SDC]

You know how Sveet posted some vid of M2K beating a mediocre jiggz, and I said a better vid to post would be two players of more equal skill? Best jiggz vs best foxes/marth, all of them recent vids:

Mango vs Jman, Brackets from Winterfest in Orlando, FL 12/19/09
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkAR_jMo5nk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLCvMxQcqOw

Notice how mango refuses to rest, despite multiple opportunities, and still wins the set.

Hungrybox vs Mew2King, Brackets from Winterfest in Orlando, FL 12/19/09
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOqp61sfJM0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x91Q8aV72W0&feature=related

Lol at how, in first match, Hbox misses all his rests and still wins the match

Hungrybox vs Mew2King, Loser's Finals from Winterfest in Orlando, FL 12/19/09
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9ET0CdOAcU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRtxrEE92bk&feature=related

Hungrybox vs Mew2King, Winner's Finals from Tipped Off 5, 09/06/2009
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPX_zM3TLes&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0g5Z6JwPXLY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqGqZKsgWm8&feature=related

 

[Zatchiel]

I dont have to watch any of these to tell you that jiggz is one of the highest tiers....

 

[Blea Gelo]

yeah, ace, she would fking **** you if u enter with a laggy move like a fsmash or someting kit.. just wait some1 take out those two, and ull remember about me. . .

 

[otg]

This thread is like 99% johns. The smash community sucks.

 

[Rubyiris]

to give some light on the topic of Jiggs Vs character X

First of all, at this point i find it unlikely that we will find a new method of fighting/countering jiggs with any of the top tiers if we havent already. Jiggs pplayers already have too much experience vs the top tiers and the top tiers have been trying (unsuccessfully) to find a answer to her for almost 3 years now.
The only solution which comes to mind is camping but thats another story.

However, one thing which we havent started looking at are possible lower tier'd semi-counters to puff.
Im going to throw out Doc mario for arguments sake.

lets start with rest. How does jiggs lands generally?

upthrow, jab reset, uptilt, falling upair, recovery rest, rest OOS (vs laggy attacks, normally would-be killing moves), crouch rest

i may have missed a few. But the point is all of the top tiers fall into some combination of 2-3 of these relatively frequently. Doc on the other hand, doesnt fall for any of them other than MAYBE recovery rest but you can do things like pill to force her t either grab the ledge early (which is bad cuz she has a slow ledge jump so she cant refreash invincibility frames) or get hit and stay on stage lol.

anyway, obviously theres other things she can do like straight of WoP doc, or other ways of fighting vs him, but doc instrinsically take away the most broken thing about jiggs just by nature of his char.I've got more i want to say on this topic if others are interested in hearing/debating it.

tl:dr top tiers wotn find anything "new" to beat jiggs with, lets start looking at lower tier matches

Your entire post is meaningless because nobody has attempted to camp jigglypuff properly.

 

[SDC]

This thread is like 99% johns. The smash community sucks.

I agree, aside from a few insightful posts, this thread has kinda devolved into
"OMGz she's so broken, who can save us from teh mighty jiggly"

But that's not the point of this thread at all. People, please just go back and read my OP lol, please.

 

[JPOBS]

as falco - most complex
DD around and SHFFL D-airs, run away and laser lots, don't try to combo, if you do a d-air and the puff is out of shine range just run away, if you can shine her the do so but then just run away full hop lasers. at like 40% you got d-air to upsmash/side smash. do NOT get grabbed or hit off the side, don't be afraid to spam lasers or do one attack then run away again

i dont see anything in here about uptilt. wtf kind of advice is this?

 

[holypho]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeitijKtPSA

reason why jiggs should be banned. it takes a fox and a falcon to pull that **** off, but jigglypuff can do it by herself WITH HER HANDS.

banhammer now.

she should get banned, pound does not have enough pp to knockout that many
clefairy,

the top tier shouldn't be a list just like a circle and arrows pointing weakness to the character they are bad and or good against like pokemon grass kills water and water kills fire and fire murders grass. So all the characters can share top tier without there being a number 1 character : D

 

[JPOBS]

Your entire post is meaningless because nobody has attempted to camp jigglypuff properly.

nice contribution.

 

[gm jack]

nice contribution.

Entirely true. Camping is a valid approach to a match up. If a character has an effective camp on Jiggs that gives them an advantage, do it.

u wont see another jiggs in the other top 10 maybe u wont see another jiggsin the top 19. . . so thers no excuses

Which shows how dominant Jiggs really is. The two best jiggs player waded through the best of every other character to face each other in the final. That could be down to the player alone, but it is unlikely that the top two would place with the same character if said character was not **** good. You have to remember there aren't floods of really good jiggs players, especially compared to the numbers of most other top tiers.

It could just be Mango and Hboxx are miles better than anyone else, but the fact they both cleared out rows of their hardest counter (Fox) shows that somewhere along the line, Jiggs is **** good.

As I have said before, people need to step it up and stop treating her like other top tiers, but who die earlier. She can't be comboed, so safety is paramount. Add in that a misspacing attempting to combo gets you rested, people just need to play more gay. Comboing may still work on every other character, including a potential jiggs counter, if one emerges. Jiggs will just join into the cycle of top tiers.

 

[Rubyiris]

No, it really does come down to Mango and Hungrybox being that much better than the rest of the world.

IMO, anyway.

 

[holypho]

it would be kinda interesting to me lol to see an all jiggs tourny to see who really knows how to use jigglypuff. I main jigglypuff sort of so thats why this would be cool to me. : D

by all i meant all the pros using her.

 

[Rubyiris]

Dittos really doesn't mean you're a better player though. Especially gay dittos like Jigglypuff dittos.

Falcon dittos fall under this category. Take SS as an example. SS does much better at tournaments as a whole in comparison to the newer generation of falcons, but Hax and Scar are pretty amazing at Falcon dittos, as opposed to SS who doesn't seem nearly as good at the match up.

However it's also been speculated that SS sandbagged Hax and Scar at the Falcon tournament, but let's not get into that.

 

[JPOBS]

Entirely true. Camping is a valid approach to a match up. If a character has an effective camp on Jiggs that gives them an advantage, do it.

i never said camping wasnt a good strategy :/

 

[M@v]

This post is for those who are saying ban jiggs. For everyone else, ignore this

Your whining because 2 jiggs players are taking a lot of tourneys.

Brawl has hell, at least 6 mks that take every tourney they enter(and if they are in the same tourney, they **** the top 5). He hasn't been banned yet. And he has been *****ed about for months.


I know they are completely different games, but I think its going to take a lot more than 2 really good players to ban jiggs. What other jiggs have been consistently ****** tourneys?


......



....Im waiting

.......

 

[Mew2King]

raistlin or some jiggs got 9th at genesis and darc got 13th when he should have done much better cuz he went even with shiz in their set. Hbox got 3rd i believe losing puff dittos to mango twice without having a shot at armada

top 5 at rom2 was 3 jiggs

and all the jiggs players admit their character is stupid

the popularity of a character does not determine how good it is.

I do not want jiggs banned but if MK gets banned then jiggs should too, because she is more dominant at the top level, just not as popular by the masses. If a big tourney has mk banned but not jiggs then I'm done smash or at very least not attending those tourneys

 

[Atlus8]

This thread is like 99% johns. The smash community sucks.

The community is amazing, but you're right about the Johns! People just can't accept how f***en amazing both Mango and Hbox are! It's ridiculous! I don't see why the people complaining just don't pick up Jiggs? They don't want to put the time and effort of learning the character! Is she not the easiest character to pick up like a lot of people keep saying? Man the f**k up people!

 

[Turazrok]

The community is amazing, but you're right about the Johns! People just can't accept how f***en amazing both Mango and Hbox are! It's ridiculous! I don't see why the people complaining just don't pick up Jiggs? They don't want to put the time and effort of learning the character! Is she not the easiest character to pick up like a lot of people keep saying? Man the f**k up people!

Because jiggs dittos are gay.