4nace
Smash Ace
Seems like you can tech the back-air based off that vid. I won't believe it until both boards confirm it haha.
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Is Sonic Mid-tier material? Is he better than Bowser again? (Read the OP)
- Thread starter Chis
- Start date
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Quoted for emphasis
Budget Player Cadet_
Smash Hero
Is ganondorf good other than that?
The argument that it's useless is rather stupid because the Ftilt is insanely fast (fast enough for a lock) and virtually unpunishable. Plus, Shiek is already a good/decent character without stuff like that.
Chis
Finally a legend
I rather wait for frame data and validation.
Browny
Smash Hater
Id rather wait for it to be tested on humans lol...
Rickerdy-doo-da-day
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jun 13, 2008
- Messages
- 4,861
- NNID
- RicardoAvocado
I really can't see that being an infinite. After watching the vid, it looks like MK has bags of time after the F Tilt to hit Shiek with something, he's there falling in 'simply falling' animation. Can't he just Nair or Uair to stop Shiek footstooling him?
RenegadeRaven
Smash Ace
Doesn't seem legit...
Also... some frame data...
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7438443&postcount=82
But there's still discussion going on. =o
Also... some frame data...
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7438443&postcount=82
Kinzer
Mammy
This is exactly the kind of response he wanted, because if you could see is [sarcasm] tags then you know that Ganon still sucks even if he can infinite Wario.
Also yeah about that new infinite, I want to see it being done on people who will... well, ya know... try and DI/break-away. I'm not going to take it for a second that Sonic can get the **** like Toon Link (if this even really affects/affected him in the first place).
@#$% I love the Spring Jump, it fixes most crap for recovery and gay locks (some frame-perfect and some otherwise, such a shame it can't fix all our problems).
RenegadeRaven
Smash Ace
This. All Hail
Chis
Finally a legend
Do stay on topic. So is it time to wrap this up now? What else haven't we taked about?
Kinzer
Mammy
Not yet.
What about that silly new "tech" Sheik has? (I'm not gonna call it an infinite or whatever, call me in denial or optimistic or whatever the Hell you want)
If it proves to do some thing then what does that do? (It probably shouldn't affect Sonic though since I've seen people say stuff with Frame Data/ some type of DI/that lovely Spring) (or if it doesn't do anything... or if it still isn't an infinite but gives Sheiks something else to use and blah blah blah, you know how it is.)
LOL @ how I'm only worried about how it affects Sonic and not about other characters, I really do wonder if this will do anything other than just another cool but impractical thing to do in-tourneys.
I'm hungry.
What about that silly new "tech" Sheik has? (I'm not gonna call it an infinite or whatever, call me in denial or optimistic or whatever the Hell you want)
If it proves to do some thing then what does that do? (It probably shouldn't affect Sonic though since I've seen people say stuff with Frame Data/ some type of DI/that lovely Spring) (or if it doesn't do anything... or if it still isn't an infinite but gives Sheiks something else to use and blah blah blah, you know how it is.)
LOL @ how I'm only worried about how it affects Sonic and not about other characters, I really do wonder if this will do anything other than just another cool but impractical thing to do in-tourneys.
I'm hungry.
Chis
Finally a legend
It hasn't been fully verified so don't involve it.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
You missed the point, though I should ahave used DK's GFSC since thats simlar and easier to understand.
Yes Sheik has an infinite.
So what?
Metaknight has greater range and speed than Sheik and is adept at maintaining the spacing to a greater degree than Sheik. So her ability to land the infinite is severely hindered by the fact that MK's gameplay prevents her from landing the Ftilt consistently enough to make a difference.
Hence the Ganondorf infinite on Wario.
While Ganondorf has an infinite, Wario's abilities allow him to prevent the infinite from seeing much use if any at all.
This infinite will most likely see as much use as Ganondorf's infinite o DK's GFSC combo.
Yeah when you land them its basically a stock off.
It sjust that you won't see it happen at high level of play where it matters.
Edit: We do NOT do weighted matchups. Matchups against top/high tier should not be looked upon with more weight than other matchups. They are treated equally.
So if Sheik gets ***** by bottom tier characters but ***** top tier characters, they are treated equally.
Chis
Finally a legend
Well it's more useful to have good match ups against characters that appear very often in tourneys (MK, Snake), then ones you hardly see at all (Ganon, Falcon).
Well... I'm glad you asked.Ah good, this moves us forward.
Now, this brings me to my next point:
Why then, does Shiek's speed matter vs the high/top tiers?
After all, they have very disjointed and minimal lag moves too.
Sheik's speed matters in two ways. Her high ground speed lets her get to places to punish... junk You guy sshould know all about that concept.
Her high attack speed (low end lag, low start up) are great for punishing attacks on sheild, wiffed or even when hit on occation. sonic lacks that advantage, espeacially on the ground.
A granteed punish OOS on even one of snakes ftilts, meta's dsmash, D3's ftilt and bair are a huge huge plus. espeacially when you concider in the air (against most of them) you have the advantage in terms of speed.
Another area where speed comes into play is with feinting attacks. Characters with high movement speed cover ground way way faster than... yep you guess it: slow characters. So when you feint a rush with sheik you opponent would have to react instantly to counter even at larger distances (when you are outside of their attack ranges) If they react in a poor way you can again take advantage of sheiks' speed and punish.
Sonic is a little wierd here. he opening dash is weird his air speed and attack speed or weird so his attack option in small amounts of time become a lot more limited. Even with his fast attack speed your options on reaction all become semi readable... at least thats how it seems to me.
Browny
Smash Hater
What does sheik punish these with? Anything other than a dash attack or grab and shes no better off than sonic. at the same time, sonics DA is very hard to punish and his grabs + throws are very useful / damaging. If theres a slightly larger frame window, an SH fair can do 14% which is powerful for such a quick aerial. Again, how does sheik punish as hard as possible when minimal frame windows are available? im sure the usmash is not quick enough to punish any of the above attacks. I would rate this aspect of gameplay as Sonics advantage over sheik.
.........
No.
ftilt -> ftilt lock.
fair -> ftilt lock.
bair -> ftilt lock.
lol, sheik can combo.
Of course dash attack and grab.
Needles (needles do 18 damage)
Again dash attack puts them in the air and sheik has strong advantages against people in the air above her.
DJbrownie:
What options does he have outside of dash attack fair and grab. Also how do you even feint an approach? Sheild cancel spin dashes?
EDIT:
Sheik has WAY WAY WAY better approach options than sonic. her aerials all end laggless ly letting her use them to space and presure. tilts for ground spacing.
Against sonic turn around and bair (D3), full hop dair (meta) granade -> sheild(snake) and he is shut down completely in all of his approaches. I think... that isn't a problem at all for sheik.
fair -> ftilt lock.
bair -> ftilt lock.
lol, sheik can combo.
Of course dash attack and grab.
Needles (needles do 18 damage)
Again dash attack puts them in the air and sheik has strong advantages against people in the air above her.
DJbrownie:
What options does he have outside of dash attack fair and grab. Also how do you even feint an approach? Sheild cancel spin dashes?
EDIT:
Sheik has WAY WAY WAY better approach options than sonic. her aerials all end laggless ly letting her use them to space and presure. tilts for ground spacing.
Against sonic turn around and bair (D3), full hop dair (meta) granade -> sheild(snake) and he is shut down completely in all of his approaches. I think... that isn't a problem at all for sheik.
Umby
Smash Master
Browny
Smash Hater
Lol so i was testing.
Outside of Diddy,
Sonic has the least punishable DA in the game.
The only thing that can hit him is a perfectly timed shield drop to dash attack or grab by the fast characters, or very fast projectiles like lasers. by comparsion, sheik can DA a G&W sheild and he can easily usmash oos. compared to each other, sonics DA is FAR less punishable. it requires perfect prediction of a DA to drop shield and being one of the faster character to land a hit.
and are you serious in implying that sheik can punish a properly spaced mk dsmash or snake ftilt with ftilt? I find that very hard to believe. Those attacks arent broken good while being easily punishable at the same time.
and im curious, which characters DOESNT mk full hop dair destroy? last time i checked, dair camping is untouchable by the vast majority of the cast. even snake cant reliably do anything about it.
<3 you say a lot of good things but then you kill your credibility with some random stuff that makes no sense. like snakes nades > all of sonics approaches. Just think for a second of what sonic actually approaches with... Its like us saying Sheik approaches with dair :/
-----
Ok so i did some moar testing...
vs snake ftilt. Dash attack and dash grab from both characters was pretty much guaranteed oos. However sonics fair was the only other attack which hit before snake could bring up a full shield. sheiks fair was always PS'd, and sheiks ftilt oos is not going to happen unless snake ftilts from right in front of your face.
vs D3 ftilt. only DA and grabs. needles and aerials all got shielded. again, if you are right in his face during the ftilt, both characters can punish with tilts.
vs mk dsmash. only a shielded front slash was punishable by a sheik ftilt if she was close enough to mk. reverse hit is lol. dont even bother with that ****.
So its pretty much a similar case for both characters. The only time sheik has it better than sonic when it comes to punishing these moves relies on the enemy spacing them very badly. Which you cant really consider (lol Sonic stutter step fsmash > Marth fsmash). While sheik has the potential for high damage punishment in the form of an ftilt lock, thats only going to happen a small % of the time. every other time, Sonic has it better with his superior throws. in the case of not dropping your shield ASAP and whiffing a DA, sheik is going to get punished hard while the worst sonic is going to take is a dash attack from MK/Snake and MK's grab/fair.
Basically, in terms of guaranteed/safe Oos attacks on the most quick and disjointed moves in the game, Sonic has the advantage. For everyone else, Needles and the ftilt lock are superior. but these rely on either having full charge needles, and the enemy being at low % to lock them. add to this the fact that full charged needles do 18% while sonics grab + pummel uthrow does 15 and fair doing 14, the difference is minimal. Whilst I understand that sheiks punishing options are more numerous and potentially very high damaging, I just cant see them being more reliable, and certainly not guaranteed.
BTW sonics uair oos *****.
DI behind them and autocancel it, too good
Outside of Diddy,
Sonic has the least punishable DA in the game.
The only thing that can hit him is a perfectly timed shield drop to dash attack or grab by the fast characters, or very fast projectiles like lasers. by comparsion, sheik can DA a G&W sheild and he can easily usmash oos. compared to each other, sonics DA is FAR less punishable. it requires perfect prediction of a DA to drop shield and being one of the faster character to land a hit.
and are you serious in implying that sheik can punish a properly spaced mk dsmash or snake ftilt with ftilt? I find that very hard to believe. Those attacks arent broken good while being easily punishable at the same time.
and im curious, which characters DOESNT mk full hop dair destroy? last time i checked, dair camping is untouchable by the vast majority of the cast. even snake cant reliably do anything about it.
<3 you say a lot of good things but then you kill your credibility with some random stuff that makes no sense. like snakes nades > all of sonics approaches. Just think for a second of what sonic actually approaches with... Its like us saying Sheik approaches with dair :/
-----
Ok so i did some moar testing...
vs snake ftilt. Dash attack and dash grab from both characters was pretty much guaranteed oos. However sonics fair was the only other attack which hit before snake could bring up a full shield. sheiks fair was always PS'd, and sheiks ftilt oos is not going to happen unless snake ftilts from right in front of your face.
vs D3 ftilt. only DA and grabs. needles and aerials all got shielded. again, if you are right in his face during the ftilt, both characters can punish with tilts.
vs mk dsmash. only a shielded front slash was punishable by a sheik ftilt if she was close enough to mk. reverse hit is lol. dont even bother with that ****.
So its pretty much a similar case for both characters. The only time sheik has it better than sonic when it comes to punishing these moves relies on the enemy spacing them very badly. Which you cant really consider (lol Sonic stutter step fsmash > Marth fsmash). While sheik has the potential for high damage punishment in the form of an ftilt lock, thats only going to happen a small % of the time. every other time, Sonic has it better with his superior throws. in the case of not dropping your shield ASAP and whiffing a DA, sheik is going to get punished hard while the worst sonic is going to take is a dash attack from MK/Snake and MK's grab/fair.
Basically, in terms of guaranteed/safe Oos attacks on the most quick and disjointed moves in the game, Sonic has the advantage. For everyone else, Needles and the ftilt lock are superior. but these rely on either having full charge needles, and the enemy being at low % to lock them. add to this the fact that full charged needles do 18% while sonics grab + pummel uthrow does 15 and fair doing 14, the difference is minimal. Whilst I understand that sheiks punishing options are more numerous and potentially very high damaging, I just cant see them being more reliable, and certainly not guaranteed.
BTW sonics uair oos *****.
DI behind them and autocancel it, too good
Umby
Smash Master
We probably have to specify whether we're talking about a regular Sonic DA or a late Sonic DA to come to a better understanding of this.
MrEh
Smash Hero
And Bowser's Fortess.
Then again, that's like the best OoS move in the game, so it pretty much punishes anything. lol
JayBee
Smash Champion
however that moves doesn't hit as soon as Sonic's DA, right? plus strategically speaking, shieks seem to have to be more concious of the aspect of stale moves, especially when they want to use upsmash, which it seems they won't use too often in fear of losing one of thier very few kill moves.
Browny
Smash Hater
sonics ASC has better range than sheiks down b and can do 28+ and can KO
zzzzzzzzz
zzzzzzzzz
Yeah, at like 150% near the fin of Corneria.
Browny
Smash Hater
Ive got a few KO's with it in the low 100's on normal stages when the enemy chases me too high. only on jiggs, MK etc though
Nixernator
Smash Ace
Lol transform? = sheiks Down B? And the priority on ASC makes it a good move overall IMO.
professor mgw
Smash Champion
Grabs,up kick,faking.
that what MOST sonics prove good to do, but his metagame didn't step up.
that what MOST sonics prove good to do, but his metagame didn't step up.
Browny
Smash Hater
And now for something completely different
^^
^^
PhoenixoKaZe
Smash Ace
yet some metagames rly don`t need to lol xD ^^
Chis
Finally a legend
And now we move on to Fox.
Discuss//
Discuss//
Kinzer
Mammy
4 supposed unwinnable Matchups.
I don't want to say much more beforeI am alone when I say Sonic should be a better character because his worst MUs can still be won (maybe only to a degree but still) other people state their opinion.
I don't want to say much more before
Chis
Finally a legend
Who is the 4th one? I know Sheik, ZSS and Pikachu.
Kinzer
Mammy
*Eye twitch*
... I could've sworn SOMEWHERE I saw Fox had 4 MUs where he has an extremely hard time like that... Uhm... Crap... I don't know where to confirm that either anymore... maybe ICs...
...Yeah I'm pretty much caught Red-handed.
... I could've sworn SOMEWHERE I saw Fox had 4 MUs where he has an extremely hard time like that... Uhm... Crap... I don't know where to confirm that either anymore... maybe ICs...
...Yeah I'm pretty much caught Red-handed.
Rawnie
Smash Champion
Ice Climbers.
25/75
25/75
Kinzer
Mammy
^^
I love you.
But seriously now, other than those 4 MUs, Fox is a pretty decent character. I would know, I've been playing around with him for a while (note, I am not going to pick him up as a secondary or a main). He's got a lazah! gun, a reflector, that upsmash, decent aerials with Nair/Dair being great for getting down to the ground... and for a spacie, his recovery is pretty good.
I would say more but yeah, I'm not gonna speak on behalf for him when I don't even play him for truly srs bzns.
I love you.
But seriously now, other than those 4 MUs, Fox is a pretty decent character. I would know, I've been playing around with him for a while (note, I am not going to pick him up as a secondary or a main). He's got a lazah! gun, a reflector, that upsmash, decent aerials with Nair/Dair being great for getting down to the ground... and for a spacie, his recovery is pretty good.
I would say more but yeah, I'm not gonna speak on behalf for him when I don't even play him for truly srs bzns.
Terios the Hedgehog
Smash Hero
Those matchups. If Sonic's better it's because of that and because Fox is spike bait.