Is Sonic Mid-tier material? Is he better than Bowser again? (Read the OP)

[ShadowLink84]

I did post intelligent answers. Maybe the Sonic boards just need an intelligent troll to take care of this... whine thread?
I gave my info and I was flamed. -_-

You provioded information was false and inaccurate. Of course you will get flamed. Especially when the information is readily available.

I'm sorry but I have seen a lot of threads out there fail. This one is up there. -_-

oh look, someone who has based their opinion on the fact that they were criticized for their ignorance.
nothing new.

To ShadowLink:
Half of what you posted was usless. 1/3 of what was left from that half was false (or you didn't explout the entirety) and the rest has some fact to back it up.

Perhaps you did not understand that most of what I said was actually true and that the 1/3rd that was false was meant to be a satire in order to show the sad state of your argument.

If you do want a serious argument about sheik vs Sonic though, I will be more than glad to offer my opinion, just not here.

I don't feel like waisting my life on such a meaningless task as arguing with you, but I will point out one thing.

LOL he goes to a video game board.
how much of a waste is it already LOLOL

Sonics bair vs Sheik's bair=Sonic wins (Sheiks comes out faster though)

Speed is irrelevant in terms of priority.

Sonics Fair vs Sheiks Bair=Sonic wins (Sheiks has more range and thus we are safe if we retreat our Bair)

Sonic has higher air mobility so... what were you saying?
You run away and we continue chasing, you won't get away,

Sonics Uair vs Sheiks bair= Sonic wins (why would you use Bair against Uair?) (I prefer Nair for this Sonics Uair) so we win

you wer enot specific in your statement hence I provided the situation for all of them.
Which by the way if it was from side to side, sheik loses.

I looked back and I saw rathy Aro (a none Sheik main) and <3 (one of the coolest guys out there). <3 Barely touched on Sheiks meta game.

As opposed to you who brings up amtchup and NOTHING on metagame m i rite?

Why are you all so worried about the tier list anyways. If you think Sonic rocks then that's you opinion. Stive to exploit his strengths and hide his weakness's. I have tried to do this with my Sheik.

When people say things like this.

"I can stop all of Sonics approaches with flying kong/jab/dtilt".
Which is then factored into tier list discussion, which then bleeds out all over the place.
So yes, correcting the issue allows us to provide more accurate information for the masses and hence, advance the metagame further for our character and their own.

Oh and BTW... I have fought a very good Sonic, he won. I have fought at least one pro at each character so I am starting to get a good idea of where each character stands. A;; Sonic needs is high priority IMO.

Sonic has high priroity on a few of his moves but the low priority stemds from his ground moves which ahve alow attack output/range.
on the whole though, his priority is average (if we were to actually be capable of emasuring priority hur hur)

ps I use Sonic in none important matches.

Don't care.

 

[saviorslegacy]

You provioded information was false and inaccurate. Of course you will get flamed. Especially when the information is readily available.


oh look, someone who has based their opinion on the fact that they were criticized for their ignorance.
nothing new.


Perhaps you did not understand that most of what I said was actually true and that the 1/3rd that was false was meant to be a satire in order to show the sad state of your argument.

If you do want a serious argument about sheik vs Sonic though, I will be more than glad to offer my opinion, just not here.

LOL he goes to a video game board.
how much of a waste is it already LOLOL

Speed is irrelevant in terms of priority.

Sonic has higher air mobility so... what were you saying?
You run away and we continue chasing, you won't get away,

you wer enot specific in your statement hence I provided the situation for all of them.
Which by the way if it was from side to side, sheik loses.


As opposed to you who brings up amtchup and NOTHING on metagame m i rite?


When people say things like this.

"I can stop all of Sonics approaches with flying kong/jab/dtilt".
Which is then factored into tier list discussion, which then bleeds out all over the place.
So yes, correcting the issue allows us to provide more accurate information for the masses and hence, advance the metagame further for our character and their own.




Sonic has high priroity on a few of his moves but the low priority stemds from his ground moves which ahve alow attack output/range.
on the whole though, his priority is average (if we were to actually be capable of emasuring priority hur hur)


Don't care.

And people called me a troll. I came here to provide information on Sheik vs Sonic but the nerds didn't like it. -_-

Speed= everything mr. Sonic main/alt (looks at the airials)
priority doesn't come into play when I beat you to the punch.
BTW... Fair and Bair have the same priority. (That is if they hit when they first come out.)

"Why is this post active?"
A: you must be easy to entertain?


BTW... why do you want to prove me wrong so bad? I could go out and make a huge post showing your faults and making an idiot out of myself. Then again I would be making myself no better than you......

One of these days I might understand why people need to show their ballz off on the internet. Last time I checked this is just a video game. Why get all flame happy?

 

[Orange_Soda_Man]

start-up lag on [move X] might be a better way of phrasing it than speed, for clarity's sake.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

One of these days I might understand why people need to show their ballz off on the internet. Last time I checked this is just a video game. Why get all flame happy?

And people called me a troll. I came here to provide information on Sheik vs Sonic but the nerds didn't like it. -_-


"Why is this post active?"
A: you must be easy to entertain?


BTW... why do you want to prove me wrong so bad? I could go out and make a huge post showing your faults and making an idiot out of myself. Then again I would be making myself no better than you......

What is this... I don't even......

 

[Chis]

Let's all respond to each other in friendly terms, okay?

 

[ShadowLink84]

And people called me a troll. I came here to provide information on Sheik vs Sonic but the nerds didn't like it. -_-

Hmm I believe he may be dyslexic

Speed= everything mr. Sonic main/alt (looks at the airials)
priority doesn't come into play when I beat you to the punch.
BTW... Fair and Bair have the same priority. (That is if they hit when they first come out.)

Really?
*looks at rose's fierce in SF3*
I am sorry what?
You do realize that Sonic is faster aerially and ground wise so, your speed doesnt mean much if you cannot get into range to utilize it.
Like Ganondorf.

"Why is this post active?"
A: you must be easy to entertain?

A: Troll

BTW... why do you want to prove me wrong so bad? I could go out and make a huge post showing your faults and making an idiot out of myself. Then again I would be making myself no better than you......

Oh don't worry you have already made an idiot of yourself already.
Plus, unlike you, what I ahve said is perfectly true. (unless I said otherwise)
Furries>sheik

One of these days I might understand why people need to show their ballz off on the internet. Last time I checked this is just a video game. Why get all flame happy?

I can show you my balls in person. Of course i am afraid you might try to touch them.

Okay i'll stop feeding the troll now.

 

[PhoenixoKaZe]

Let's all respond to each other in friendly terms, okay?

that usually diffcult in the interwebs xD

 

[saviorslegacy]

Hmm I believe he may be dyslexic

Really?
*looks at rose's fierce in SF3*
I am sorry what?
You do realize that Sonic is faster aerially and ground wise so, your speed doesnt mean much if you cannot get into range to utilize it.
Like Ganondorf.

A: Troll



Oh don't worry you have already made an idiot of yourself already.
Plus, unlike you, what I ahve said is perfectly true. (unless I said otherwise)
Furries>sheik


I can show you my balls in person. Of course i am afraid you might try to touch them.

Okay i'll stop feeding the troll now.

Sonic can run faster. Unless he has frame 1 attacks then they are even in attack speed.

This ladies and gentlemen is a perfect example of someone who has 5,000+ posts and thinks he has it all figured out.


k.. I'll stop feeding the troll now

 

[ShadowLink84]

SO as I was saying earlier before this typical 08'er arrived n the scene.
(wonders if he is still posting)
I cannot see Sonic being better than SHeik primarily because of the Sheik/zelda duo thing.
They just work so much better than SOnic does (and by much I mean significantly enough to show herself being better than Sonic).
Event hen I can still see Sheik being better simply ebcause her amtchups are better as a whole as well.

 

[aeghrur]

Speed= everything mr. Sonic main/alt (looks at the airials)
priority doesn't come into play when I beat you to the punch.

No... that's not true.
Look at DDD.
His Fair come out in 16 frames, yet it's decent.
His Bair comes out in 6 frames, more than our Fair, nair, and uair, but it's definitely better than nair, and arguably more useful than fair and uair.
Then, his ftilt and utilt come out on frame 12 while our comes out on frame 6 and 7 respectively. Which is better, DDD's or ours? DDDs. But ours is faster. :o
Just like our Fair, nair, and uair are faster than all his aerials.
So, does that mean we have better priority, a better aerial game, or that we can negate his priority because of our speed?

 

[saviorslegacy]

No... that's not true.
Look at DDD.
His Fair come out in 16 frames, yet it's decent.
His Bair comes out in 6 frames, more than our Fair, nair, and uair, but it's definitely better than nair, and arguably more useful than fair and uair.
Then, his ftilt and utilt come out on frame 12 while our comes out on frame 6 and 7 respectively. Which is better, DDD's or ours? DDDs. But ours is faster. :o
Just like our Fair, nair, and uair are faster than all his aerials.
So, does that mean we have better priority, a better aerial game, or that we can negate his priority because of our speed?

I meant in a Sonic vs Sheik match up.

 

[aeghrur]

I meant in a Sonic vs Sheik match up.

This isn't a match-up discussion.

 

[Tenki]

Original post:
How is Sonic better than... No.6 Sheik (Read the OP first)

This isn't a Matchup Thread. It's not who would win in a game between Sonic and Samus. It's a discussion on whether Sonic is an overall better character against the entire cast with more potential then Samus has.

I hear a lot about how Sonic was placed so low in January's tier list. Since you want him to rise Sonic mains, you need to explain why he's better then certain characters Such as tourney results and match ups. I'll slow work my way up starting from Samus. In turn it'll hopefully improve some understanding of that character and clear away some miss conceptions...

If you can't bring em to the water, you bring the water to them. lol.

 

[Umby]

In that case.
WTF is this post? Some poor excuse to try and make Sonic seem good?

This post negated any serious consideration of any possible logic that this user might have had to offer.

 

[da K.I.D.]

SL

shut up.

also, in regards to shiek as a stand alone, I think sonic is slightly better.

i make this statement because shiek as a playstyle seems very limited and easy to read, where as sonic has tools to not be repetitive even tho sheik has more ability to be repetive seeing as its harder to do anything about it

 

[Kitamerby]

Then what's the deal with AS, IIRC Ike can like just literally PAWNCH them out of the way.

Aura Sphere and Force Palm are unique. Force Palm is an energy projectile with laser priority, and Aura Sphere is a regular projectile whose size, speed, range, and priority increases as Lucario's aura builds up. You cannot clank with any of Lucario's ground moves on the aura boxes at any time. Lucario however also has extra hitboxes on his body, which allows him to still negate projectiles and clank with anything that he does not outrange.

 

[RenegadeRaven]

I really don't see how Sonic can be better. Their play style are similar in a sense. They both rely on punishment while Shiek has a better CQC game since she can chain attacks better. They can both gimp pretty well and Shiek even has the ability to tether gimp. She even seems to have more range and power in the air.

Just like Sonic she has problems killing, and another one of her problems is her below average recovery.
Doesn't she also have better match ups?

 

[<π]

No... that's not true.
Look at DDD.
His Fair come out in 16 frames, yet it's decent.
His Bair comes out in 6 frames, more than our Fair, nair, and uair, but it's definitely better than nair, and arguably more useful than fair and uair.
Then, his ftilt and utilt come out on frame 12 while our comes out on frame 6 and 7 respectively. Which is better, DDD's or ours? DDDs. But ours is faster. :o
Just like our Fair, nair, and uair are faster than all his aerials.
So, does that mean we have better priority, a better aerial game, or that we can negate his priority because of our speed?

good point, I'm glad you brought it up.

D3s moves have either big range, stay out for a long period of time, or have very little end lag. when spaced correctly that time starts to matter a lot less. You are either hitting sheild or your opponent, and they can't get in at you to counter or through your hit box.

 

[JayBee]

if someone can, can we look at why shiek loses in the matchups against the most commonly played characters in tourneys, so we can see similarities, and if that weakness is more less universally exploited in brawl by the cast, then see if that plays a difference in tourney results.

 

[ShadowLink84]

SL

Kid

shut up.

You can't say anything until you bring me my steak.

But yeah I think Sheik is better than Sonic currently primarily because Sheik/Zelda combination which I do think we should factor into consideration

 

[Chis]

The Shiek/Zelda combination shouldn't be considered because it's not conisdered in the tier list.

 

[ROOOOY!]

It doesn't really need any thought anyway. Sheik + Zelda combo is definately better than Sonic, no question.

Sheik by herself however, I'm not convinced. Their strengths lie in different places, though they both play similarly.

Comparing character-wise, they're about even. Match-ups taken into account, Sheik is probably better, but I dunno.

Also Chis, get to school.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Both of you get to school. Skivers

I'm surprised they haven't put a Zelda/Shiek spot on the tier list. I wonder if they'll do it next time

 

[ROOOOY!]

They should do, they're better and probably used more together then they are seperately.

Ill johns. And get in teh chat group.

 

[JayBee]

to be fair , we need to just look at shiek, as a separate character, since she can be played competantly by herself and thier is no incentive forcing the change to zelda (PT has that stamina factor, and when one dies the change is automatic.) And I thought Zelda was worse than Sonic?

 

[ShadowLink84]

Personally i believe Zelda is worse than Sonic but unlike Sonic, she has some setups for her kill moves.
she has no need to rack up damage considering she has Sheik who racks damage up pretty well.

Hence why I feel Sheik/Zelda is something we should deal with more, primarily because more often than not, you need to utilize both in order to bring out the full potential of those characters.

 

[RenegadeRaven]

The point is that we don't have to use the other, it's not required.

It should be discussed after (or during w/e) discussing the characters individually. But all three possibilities should be taken into account.

 

[JayBee]

agreed. shiek being able to switch to zelda isn't something people HAVE to do, and usually dont.

 

[Kinzer]

Personally i believe Zelda is worse than Sonic but unlike Sonic, she has some setups for her kill moves.
she has no need to rack up damage considering she has Sheik who racks damage up pretty well.

Hence why I feel Sheik/Zelda is something we should deal with more, primarily because more often than not, you need to utilize both in order to bring out the full potential of those characters.

...I'm gonna come back to this when and if we get up to Zelda, because other people have finally said it:

Yes, it helps greatly if you learn both, but in this situation the player has a choice to use another character. Maybe the other character does not fit their style of play (you gotta admit, they both play a helluva lot differently), or they're just too lazy to learn, it's not PT where a hybrid playstyle is almost if not a necessity.

For now though I'll wait, because I was gonna ask "what setups besides DTilt and tripping" but forget it.

... Actually I just remember, DTilt wrecks Sonic, so GG get wrecked/*****/pwned.

 

[Kataefi]

Guys... you don't have to switch, but if switching is tactically advantageous then you're hindering yourself if you don't. This can apply with quite a few matchups. By all means Sheik can definitely get the kill, but there are moments when her setups and gimps might just not work in the right percent window.

Zelda may have tons of hideously bad matchups, but they're far from hideously bad when her opponent is over 100%.

You'll be playing half a character if you stick to just one

 

[Chis]

We'll talk about Zelda and Sheik after Zelda. But now we talk about Sheik.

 

[ShadowLink84]

The point is that we don't have to use the other, it's not required.

It should be discussed after (or during w/e) discussing the characters individually. But all three possibilities should be taken into account.

You also have a choice not to play Metaknight.
Yet we know if you don't play Metaknight you hinder your chances at winning.

yes playing Zelda and Sheik individually is a choice left up to the player, but we are talking about the characters.
Frankly, I cannot see Sheik or Zelda individually because their capabilities lie within the utilization of both characters.

Hence why I also feel the tier list should reflect this as well.
We are comparing Sonic's abilities to those of Sheik and Zelda./ Why only do one character if their abilities rely on each other?

 

[Chis]

This is not the place for that debate >_>

Just discuss Sheik already.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Okay. Sheik now. Zelda later. Sheik and Zelda after that.

 

[Kinzer]

You people do realize that Sheik/Zelda together are more than Sonic could ever be, right?

Why would you even try?

Also if the False SBR counts them both individually as two separate characters in both MAY-LAY! and Brawl, why can't we?

 

[Kataefi]

Read the PM I sent you Kinzer... let's keep it at that as this isn't a debate about Zelda/Sheik as we're discussing them after Zelda, which is still quite sometime away (what would amuse me is when you do get to Zelda Chis she'll have dropped about 10 positions in the tier list anyways haha!)

 

[4nace]

Discussion about this is better than no discussion at all.

On topic: I think that Sonic could actually rise above Sheik in the tier list over the next year or so.

I think that the main thing that Sonic has on the 6-7 characters above him is that there are no real characters that shut him down completely and make the fight pointless. (Even Marth is beatable heh)

Sheik has a really difficult time against both the Ice Climbers and Lucario, which are both characters seen at high end tournaments.

And the amazing matchups that Sheik has dont really help her in high end tournaments as there arent many foxes or jigglypuffs placing in the top 8.

I still think that right now Sheik is a better character, but she is one that I could see dropping below Sonic as the Brawl metagame progresses. Since Sonic is so hard to counter, I can only see him going up over time, and the fact that Sheik has such trouble killing and she can get pretty shut down by Lucario (who many people are able to secondary), I think that Sheik alone has only down to go.

Sheik/Zelda on the otherhand...

 

[Camalange]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmsrrBDfTXc

Hmm...Shiek probably won't be dropping soon

 

[ShadowLink84]

wow she has an infinite on MK.
Ganondorf has an infinite on Wario.

 

[Browny]

lol as soon as i saw that thread title i knew who made it

same guy who likes to argue priority vs me and SL etc. and gets beat the fk down and retorts with 'you guys are trolls'

Lets wait until someone reputable proves anything first