Is Sonic Mid-tier material? Is he better than Bowser again? (Read the OP)

[Shadow13]

4 supposed unwinnable Matchups.

I don't want to say much more before I am alone when I say Sonic should be a better character because his worst MUs can still be won (maybe only to a degree but still) other people state their opinion.

well, duh, it's even possible to beat Snake or MK with Gannon (but just barely possible)

 

[Shadow13]

4 supposed unwinnable Matchups.

I don't want to say much more before I am alone when I say Sonic should be a better character because his worst MUs can still be won (maybe only to a degree but still) other people state their opinion.

Sonic isn't good, in another post someone (don't remember who, don't ask) said that with FS and items he is good, but he is only good with items because being the fastest is a duh to being more likely to getting the item, and his FS is to level out how much he sucks

 

[aeghrur]

Sonic isn't good

Please disprove the tournament results, his matchups(***** by less characters than Fox), along with high level play shown by the likes of Malcolm, Espy, Wes, and other sonics first before making this statement.

 

[Camalange]

Sonic isn't good, in another post someone (don't remember who, don't ask) said that with FS and items he is good, but he is only good with items because being the fastest is a duh to being more likely to getting the item, and his FS is to level out how much he sucks

Well, more and more top players now are considering him to be around Mid Tier. Their views are changing thanks to what Ghrur said...

Ever since the games release, Sonic has had one argument on his side. TOURNEY RESULTS. He doubles, even triples in placing against the other low tiers and some mid tiers. CONSISTENTLY. He has moved around from 16th-20th placing in the rankings list for as long as I can remember. He is obviously the best out of Low Tier.

He just has an insanely high learning curve. It discourages a lot of people from playing him, and makes elitists see him as "dtilt moar".

 

[Kinzer]

Guys just ignore him, he's an idiot.

I kind of stopped actually taking him seriously when he had to bring items to this. Well no actually even before then when he said Sonic sucks (without reason anyway, Sonic sucking is undisputably wrong, to an/what extent/reasons is debatable) and maybe some other things must've done it but this was what broke the Camal(ange)'s back.

TBH, I'm surprised he's not banned yet, he's revived things that were dead a long time ago and instead of editing his posts he would instead double post. It's obviously just a bad attempt to get people to feed the troll and I feel bad that I even gave him some food out of sympathy.

I should be more like , but sadly cares about people, contrary to popular belief that he rides solo.

 

[Umby]

From my point of view, Fox's unwinnable matchups would only contribute to his tournament viability, not his overall being as good or bad. I count the two as separate entities, but that's probably just me.

In any case, if one were to agree with my standpoint in that regard, lasers and usmash are too good by themselves to make Sonic better than Fox in general. In a tournament setting, Sonic does considerably better.

 

[da K.I.D.]

As someone who seriously plays both Fox and Sonic, I have always been a strong proponent of two facts.

1. Fox has a definite advantage in the matchup between Fox and Sonic
2. Sonic is definitely a better character than Fox.

Sonic's worst matchups are (IMO) MK, Falco and Snake. Sonics (me included) have definitely won matches against all 3 of those characters to the point that while its not expected for sonic to win, its not uncommon by a longshot.

Fox's worst matchups are Sheik, Pikachu, and ZSS. And while Ive won matches against ZSS and Pikachu (one time ever), those matchups are INSANELY more difficult for fox than MK and snake are for sonic.

Sonics worst matches still require thought, intelligence and reaction on the part of the other player. When it comes to Fox's worst matches, the only thought needed by the other player literally doesnt get any deeper than: "Get a grab", "Land an f tilt", or "hit with d smash"

Fox is a very one dimensional character. Dont you dare let the Fox boards or anybody else convince you otherwise. The fact that he doesnt have much to work with coupled with teh fact that literally A THIRD of the cast has some kind of dumb lock on him. (I can make a list if necessary) Makes him a very meh character. He is also Stupid light. and the fact that people think hes heavier than he looks, means that people are never going to try to hit him with a kill move below kill percents. People will always rack more damage than necessary to kill on fox. thus, he will die very quickly.

HOWEVER, I wouldnt play this character seriously if he had no good points. He is one of the few characters that has TRUE combos, and BRAWL combos
Brawl combos: a number of sequential attacks that, while escapable, are very hard to get out of and rarely avoided.
Not only does Fox have very strong, high-damage combos, but he can mix and match moves that may or may not be escapable, for tons of damage racking potential. its not uncommon for a fox to turn one dair into anywhere from 40-80%. Yes against good people you can get 80 in one combo with fox. Many of you may not believe me, and thats fine but i know what Ive done and who ive done it too.
Fox also has by far the best recovery of the 3 spacies and in the hands of a skilled fox he is rarely gimped. Thanks to 4 special factors he gets gimped far less than falco or wolf.
1. double jump f air. this gains him a crapload of distance while putting a hitbox in front of him.
2. shine stalling. this variation on the timing of your recovery can sometimes be all you need to get to the stage safely.
3. A usable up b. foxs up b actually has very good distance to it and like shine stalling can be used to vary the timing of your recovery.
4. Mobility after his up b. unlike Falco and wolf, Fox can drift directly after using his up b, which is sometimes just enough to get you on the stage to avoid being edgehogged to your doom.
Fox also has something very few characters in this game have. An easy and effective way to combo into a kill move. A kill move that by the way, that is one of the best kill moves in the game. (id say top ten in terms of overall effectiveness)
This being said, unless youre fighting a very tall character, fox really doesnt have the effective options needed to vary his game up and be an adaptable character. and adaptability is something that I value most than just about any other factor as far as chaaracters in brawl are concerned. and its something that sonic has in spades. And while fox can punish mistakes very hard Sonic also has the ability to punish more mistakes, which i think is more important when it comes to the tourney scene.

TL;DR
Fox is very strong and combos hard and CAN recover, yet is very light and doesnt have the adaptability that sonic has. Fox also doesnt have the ability to win his worst matchups. Fox makes a great secondary but sonic is better in the tourney setting as a stand along character.

sonic is a better character than Fox

 

[RenegadeRaven]

1. Fox has a definite advantage in the matchup between Fox and Sonic

...What is this? I don't even...

 

[Kinzer]

That's arguable, but that's not what this thread is for.

But I do suppose when it isn't his "get *****" MUs, Fox does pretty well for himself.

Did I already said that? Oh well.

 

[Chis]

Can someone please go to the Fox boards and link them to this thread? Thanks.

 

[Sukai]

Um, so.....are we like..supposed to debate here?

I'll try.

In a nutshell.
Fox has a projectile, and that goes without saying is always useful in any match, Sonic and Falcon are the only ones who beat him in speed, so Sonic definitely excels in that field, so Sonic can run to and from faster than Fox can, but Fox can maneuver better overall, because of Fox's jumping speed and fastfalling.

Sonic takes a fair bit of risks in his matches, and can be grabbed out of his spindash if his opponent times it right. Fox can, if he has to, play a shoot and run game the whole match, but it goes without saying that Fox carries risks as well as Fox cannot space.
Sonic can on the other hand, just barely. Sonic can escape setups with his spring jump, but on the flipside he can be baited into doing so.
Fox certainly has the worst bad match ups, but his camping skills do make for a well base for Fox's game, Fox also excels in kill power, although up smash is his earliest killer, forward smash and down smash can deliver KOs as well, along with his back air, up air or even Firefox if his opponent's percentage is high enough (like around 190 or so), Fox can also combo into his kill moves while Sonic's combo kills (what few of them that exists) are DI escapable.
However, Sonic is heavier, so he can survive hits better and his vertical knockback resistance (same a Mario's) is much better than Fox's (same as Kirby's), however, Fox can cover more lateral recovery ground and can stall himself with his shine if he has to, so Fox for sure has the better recovery potential.

Sonic has some high points, but I say Fox is better, but not by a whole lot for what it's worth.

 

[Fenrir VII]

This is an interesting thread... I like it.

I'm a bit confused by the aim here... are we discussing in a tournament setting, or in general, based on character attributes, etc?

Anyways... to disprove stuff that's going around... Fox does not have "4 unwinnable matchups" at all...

ZSS has long been disproven as a bad matchup... and it's given slightly in her favor due to it being incredibly hard to hit a skilled Fox with a dsmash that will lead into the lock... The rest of the match (imo, at least...not speaking for the rest of the Fox board with this one) is pretty heartily in Fox's favor.

Pika has always been a LOL matchup... but there are a few Foxes who disagree with this. Pika has to land a grab, and his grab range and speed is pretty terrible... he also does not have any guaranteed grab lead-ins... so the argument "don't get grabbed" is incredible viable.

Sheik... I don't know why... but it came out a long time ago that the ftilt lock is escapable...and every Fox forgot it. again... somewhat of an advantage for her... but definitely not bad.

ICs... nah... we outcamp them, never have to approach, can split and kill nana easily... not terrible. Hard match, sure, but not ****.


Now...sticking to the matchup thing... Fox should do better in tournaments (arguably does not because of the relative lack of upper level Fox players....I know of like 4, rather than a handful of Sonics) because he has better matchups against the entire upper tiers... who will be more played in-tournament than lower characters...

Fox has winnable matches against:

MK: most deem it slightly in MK's favor... but never more than 65-35... most often 6-4.
Snake: most deem it exactly even, or slightly in Fox's favor... from 5-5 to 6-4 Fox
DDD: usually called straight even
ROB: been a while since that discussion, but again, mostly even or in Fox's favor
Falco: (me personally), I think Fox is one of the few Falco counters in the game.. I have reasons for this (and quite a few Foxes share the opinion, but due to the nature of this thread, I'll hold those back for now.
Diddy: straight even...
etc. I don't really want to continue this through the whole list

Since these characters are better (and arguably easier to play) they will show up more often in tournament... and the characters Fox has problems with will mainly be used to CP him... which should really not scare any Fox player who is able to avoid a grab or dsmash...or get out of the ftilt lock.

Now Sonic's worst matchups are all in the upper tiers... meaning they will show up WAY more often here.


Outside of tournament discussion...

Fox has actual combo lead-ins to smashes and grabs...
a good air game.
a very adaptive ground game with sliding shields and such...
incredible kill moves..with easy lead-ins (as long as the Fox remains unpredictable)
a more variable recovery than Sonic (not saying better...but he has more choices... thus is actually quite hard to land a gimp on)


Fox is made for putting damage on quickly and killing early... he is quite light, though... but I do not see him as "one-dimensional" as somebody said before me.

I feel he is less predictable than quite a few characters... he outclasses Sonic in damage output and killing ability.
He has a projectile and is one of the better anti-campers/campers in the game.
and I believe he wins in the recovery vs. edgeguarding area against Sonic, meaning, he is a good edgeguarder against opponent's recoveries, and has quite a good recovery himself...

 

[Jim Morrison]

Sonic takes a fair bit of risks in his matches, and can be grabbed out of his spindash if his opponent times it right.

I wish there was a facepalm emote.


Other than that, good post :O

Now we are talking about matchups, but you must realize that in reality, Sonic's matchups aren't horrid at all because Sonic is 50% mindgames, which don't count in the matchup discussion, so some matches that are 60:40 are still pretty even. Marth is Sonics worst matchup (IMO) and I'd indeed pick a counter, but there's not that many Marth players. But Marth is like the same story as Fox has with Pikachu or something. It's a hard but definitly not unwinnable matchup. MK is also 60:40 or something against Sonic, Sonic does surprisingly well against MK, because he is one of the few characters that can punish fast enough when you think you're safe.
Snake is kinda even with Sonic. And Sonic does have near unescapable combos too .
Enter Spin dash.

EDIT: The end of your post I 100% disagree with. First off, Sonic has most likely the best/most versatile recoveries in the game. His edgeguarding is amazing as well, with his D-air as a semi-spike, Spring gimps, falling F-air and B-air knocking people away. Even HA is useful there, because punishing it off-stage is hard.
I'm quite uninformed about how Fox edgeguards :/. Enlighten me.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

GF2. You can grab Sonic's out of spindash. When I didn't suck so much I could even do it on wifi. D=

 

[Jim Morrison]

I mean you can not grab someone out of Spindash, unless it is used as a direct approach. It is a punisher or unexpected move, not one that you can grab Sonic out of. You know what I mean Terios, it's just not supposed to happen that you get grabbed out of it (approaching)

 

[Chis]

Um, so.....are we like..supposed to debate here?

I'll try.

In a nutshell.
Fox has a projectile, and that goes without saying is always useful in any match,

Sonic's spring is also a projectile. However, I don't see how not having one would be seen as a disadvantage. Especially if you don't need one.

Sonic and Falcon are the only ones who beat him in speed, so Sonic definitely excels in that field, so Sonic can run to and from faster than Fox can, but Fox can maneuver better overall, because of Fox's jumping speed and fastfalling.

Well Sonic can manoeuvre quite well on the ground due to some pivots, dance dances and other 'stuff', which is useful for spacing and baiting.

Sonic takes a fair bit of risks in his matches, and can be grabbed out of his spindash if his opponent times it right.

I don't really see how this can be a disadvantage as tourney level Sonics don't often do a grounded spin dash as there are better ways of approaching.

This is an interesting thread... I like it.

I'm a bit confused by the aim here... are we discussing in a tournament setting, or in general, based on character attributes, etc?

Anyways... to disprove stuff that's going around... Fox does not have "4 unwinnable matchups" at all...

I'm going naturally assume that the match up chart represents high level foxes.

ZSS has long been disproven as a bad matchup... and it's given slightly in her favor due to it being incredibly hard to hit a skilled Fox with a dsmash that will lead into the lock... The rest of the match (imo, at least...not speaking for the rest of the Fox board with this one) is pretty heartily in Fox's favor.

That's not really valid as I could just say a skilled ZSS should hit a fox with a D smash. It's still 35:65 anyways.

Pika has always been a LOL matchup... but there are a few Foxes who disagree with this. Pika has to land a grab, and his grab range and speed is pretty terrible... he also does not have any guaranteed grab lead-ins... so the argument "don't get grabbed" is incredible viable.

The 'don't get grabbed' thing is a bit like the 'don't get hit' thing, regardless, the matchup is still 10:90 iirc. And that IS bad.

Sheik... I don't know why... but it came out a long time ago that the ftilt lock is escapable...and every Fox forgot it. again... somewhat of an advantage for her... but definitely not bad.

25:75 looks bad though

ICs... nah... we outcamp them, never have to approach, can split and kill nana easily... not terrible. Hard match, sure, but not ****.

It says 25:75, that's not good....

/Chis got lazy/

Since these characters are better (and arguably easier to play) they will show up more often in tournament... and the characters Fox has problems with will mainly be used to CP him... which should really not scare any Fox player who is able to avoid a grab or dsmash...or get out of the ftilt lock.

Now Sonic's worst matchups are all in the upper tiers... meaning they will show up WAY more often here.

Sonic has disadvantages against most of them and goes even with Diddy and 35:65 with Marth and G&W. Anyways, Fox has more bad match ups, and these characters do turn up in tourneys regardless.

He has a projectile and is one of the better anti-campers/campers in the game.
and I believe he wins in the recovery vs. edgeguarding area against Sonic, meaning, he is a good edgeguarder against opponent's recoveries, and has quite a good recovery himself...

I hope that you're not suggesting that he's got a better recovery then Sonic.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Chis:

our matchup thread is severely outdated. We are somewhat in progress discussing them all over again... But as of now, it's not a good guide of the relative standing now. so your natural assumption, while well-grounded, is incorrect...

A projectile is useful in Brawl... just a fact... sure, you can make a point that you may not need it, but you would be better if you had something in that area...

That's not really valid as I could just say a skilled ZSS should hit a fox with a D smash. It's still 35:65 anyways.

Well, not really... it is more difficult to hit it, than to avoid it. It's limited hitbox and uses really hurt its viability as a solid tactic. Also, ZSS has to hit a grounded Fox, or it messes up the lock... so if Fox falls into it, and is just high enough, he still avoids the lock.

as play level gets higher, the number of dsmashes a ZSS hits aFox with will decrease... is my main point.

The 'don't get grabbed' thing is a bit like the 'don't get hit' thing, regardless, the matchup is still 10:90 iirc. And that IS bad.

Zeton, one of the better Foxes around, recently went quite even with Anther. I realize that this argument is flawed, but an example is always good to have. Anther himself has said that the matchup isn't as bad as Fox players have thought due to Pika's horrible grab game.

Don't get grabbed is a horrible argument if you're discussing playing against....DDD or something. Pika, though... that is quite viable.

25:75 looks bad though

It says 25:75, that's not good....

matchup chart is outdated.

I hope that you're not suggesting that he's got a better recovery then Sonic.

He has more choices with his recovery than does Sonic. That is what I'm suggesting. Sonic's recovery is good, sure... but Fox's is more adaptible to get around edgeguarding.

 

[Browny]

ummm...

Fox has actual combo lead-ins to smashes and grabs...
a good air game.
a very adaptive ground game with sliding shields and such...
incredible kill moves..with easy lead-ins (as long as the Fox remains unpredictable)
a more variable recovery than Sonic (not saying better...but he has more choices... thus is actually quite hard to land a gimp on)


and I believe he wins in the recovery vs. edgeguarding area against Sonic, meaning, he is a good edgeguarder against opponent's recoveries, and has quite a good recovery himself...

When comaparing these two characters against the rest of the cast, you have to like, compare them against the rest of the cast.

If fox has a good air game, what does that give marth/mk/wario/lucario/luigi/ddd... just about any good character? IMO fox's air game is not a real strong point. outside dair and nair, the other aerials will see limited use and are practically useless for spacing, juggling, defense or retreating with.

again, adaptive ground game? Who doesnt have an adaptive ground game? maybe wario and ness... very few characters are limited when on the ground. and fox' grabs and throws are not threatening at all. at the same time, fox cant just suddenly change a ground approach into an aerial approach against anyone with a shield.

incredible kill moves. again, this catergoy is reserved for G&W, snake, wario, DK etc. outside of usmash, all his other ko moves are mediocre. lack of range and ease of punishment counter their above-average strength.

LOL @ thinking fox has more recovery options than sonic. Fox has what, stall with reflector, fair boost, upb and side b. Sonic has DI (since he doesnt fall like a brick), sideb, spinshot, ISDJ, spring and homing attack. and sonic doesnt have any recoveries which travel a set distance and are just asking to get G&W fsmashed etc. Whilst I agree fox is very difficult to gimp, for any character, his recovery is by no means EVER better than sonics, in any aspect.

I see where youre coming from, in how some of fox's traits are far superior to sonics respective traits, but that is only going to help in a tourney situation against a sonic, which is very rare indeed. Fox's good traits are outclassed by top/high tier, and his weaknesses are very exploitable. for example, fox can have all the variations he wants to his recovery, but how does that help him vs an MK who simply sits at the edge and tornadoes the invevitable upb/side b? does he have any safe on block approaches which wont end in death from the IC's or snake grab combos?

I think fox is a better character than sonic, but not because he has any amazing qualities. simply because you cant argue he racks up damage fast and KO's fast. keeping the enemy constantly in worry of being usmashed is worth a lot and will definitely force a change of habit, the sorts of which sonic has trouble with

 

[ShadowLink84]

1. Fox has a definite advantage in the matchup between Fox and Sonic

No he doesn't and I would expect from our matches at Apex you would understand such an idea.

2. Sonic is definitely a better character than Fox.

If only because FOx has those 3 bad matchups.

HOWEVER, I wouldnt play this character seriously if he had no good points. He is one of the few characters that has TRUE combos, and BRAWL combos
Brawl combos: a number of sequential attacks that, while escapable, are very hard to get out of and rarely avoided.

Brawl comboes=strings
They are moves that place the opponent in a bad situation that allows you to follow up more easily even though its not guaranteed.
This was noticeable in melee where Marths grabs placed you in a bad position. While they typically did not combo, they usually placed you in a bad situation.

This also occurs in several other fighting games. So no, its not BRAWL combos its a string.

Not only does Fox have very strong, high-damage combos, but he can mix and match moves that may or may not be escapable, for tons of damage racking potential. its not uncommon for a fox to turn one dair into anywhere from 40-80%. Yes against good people you can get 80 in one combo with fox. Many of you may not believe me, and thats fine but i know what Ive done and who ive done it too.

Do they forget how to DI and shield?
Cause frankly, Fox's Dair does not set up for such high damage.
He can land a jab/grab after a Dair that is guaranteed Every other time though the move's hitstun is so poor that he cannot follow up with anything else.As soon as the opponent is out of hitstun for even 1 frame, they can shield.
So this leads to you have to jab orgrab with Fox. If you grab and Dthrow you can try to follow up with a Fair but it isnt very good because you can DI that and avoid it.
You can ja but they can SDI and avoid most of the damage that would result.

Of course i am not denyigint he possibility of racking such large damage, but the fact remains that this typically does not happen at high levels of play. primarily due to the behavior of Fox's moves.

So while he does punishes hard, he does not punish nearly as hard as you say he does.

Fox also has something very few characters in this game have. An easy and effective way to combo into a kill move. A kill move that by the way, that is one of the best kill moves in the game. (id say top ten in terms of overall effectiveness)

No he does not.
Fox's Dair does not lead into ANY of his kill moves.
The only time he can land a kill move after his Dair is if the Dair causes the opponent to trip.
The likely hood of which is rather small.

Which is why I was rather irritated that you landed the Usmash kill after the Dair.

Don't believe me? You can check it out with the debug code as well.

 

[Fenrir VII]

If fox has a good air game, what does that give marth/mk/wario/lucario/luigi/ddd... just about any good character? IMO fox's air game is not a real strong point. outside dair and nair, the other aerials will see limited use and are practically useless for spacing, defense or retreating with.

Fair? easily Fox's best aerial in terms of spacing and priority... also autocancels on SH, making it virtually unpunishable... and lifts opponents into the air... which is easily Fox's best matchup position. Bair also spaces quite well through many characters' aerials... trading/beating Snake's Nair, MK's Fair, Marth's Fair, etc etc.

again, adaptive ground game? Who doesnt have an adaptive ground game? maybe wario and ness... very few characters are limited when on the ground. and fox' grabs and throws are not threatening at all. at the same time, fox cant just suddenly change a ground approach into an aerial approach against anyone with a shield.

not sure what you mean with your last sentence....uh...jump? Fox also has a very long sliding dash shield, which can be canceled with usmash...one of the best killers in the game, overall. He also has the fastest pivot grab in the game, and his PWG slides incredibly far... giving him very many different, safe options on the ground.

incredible kill moves. again, this catergoy is reserved for G&W, snake, wario, DK etc. outside of usmash, all his other ko moves are mediocre. lack or range and ease of punishment counter their above-average strength.

Bair neither lacks range, nor is easy to punish. Dsmash is one of the better low-sending smashes in the game... of course not near the best... but comboing out of almost any aerial, and hitting both sides of Fox very fast, mixed with it's very nice low-sending knockback make it a huge threat... it is applicable out o f shield, too...

LOL @ thinking fox has more recovery options than sonic. Fox has what, stall with reflector, fair boost, upb and side b. Sonic has DI (since he doesnt fall like a brick), sideb, spinshot, ISDJ, spring and homing attack. and sonic doesnt have any recoveries which travel a set distance and are just asking to get G&W fsmashed etc. Whilst I agree fox is very difficult to gimp, for any character, his recovery is by no means EVER better than sonics, in any aspect.

That's fair... I do think Fox has more varied options here... Fox's recoveries don't travel a set distance either, save FireFox...

for example, fox can have all the variations he wants to his recovery, but how does that help him vs an MK who simply sits at the edge and tornadoes the invevitable upb/side b? does he have any safe on block approaches which wont end in death from the IC's or snake grab combos?

First of all, tornado isn't effective against Fox. Secondly, why would Fox either up or side b into the edge at eye level, anyway? not a terrific example, really...

And yes... Bair, PWG, Fair, utilt all can space and be safe against shield easily... : / or just grab... but whatever. Snake has to guess Fox for his "combos" to work... so I don't really count him there.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Sorry for the potential double post but...

If only because FOx has those 3 bad matchups.

Read my post on that.

Brawl comboes=strings
They are moves that place the opponent in a bad situation that allows you to follow up more easily even though its not guaranteed.
This was noticeable in melee where Marths grabs placed you in a bad position. While they typically did not combo, they usually placed you in a bad situation.

This also occurs in several other fighting games. So no, its not BRAWL combos its a string.

Fox has quite a few true combos... that count as combos... not sure what you're saying.

Do they forget how to DI and shield?
Cause frankly, Fox's Dair does not set up for such high damage.
He can land a jab/grab after a Dair that is guaranteed Every other time though the move's hitstun is so poor that he cannot follow up with anything else.As soon as the opponent is out of hitstun for even 1 frame, they can shield.
So this leads to you have to jab orgrab with Fox. If you grab and Dthrow you can try to follow up with a Fair but it isnt very good because you can DI that and avoid it.
You can ja but they can SDI and avoid most of the damage that would result.

Of course i am not denyigint he possibility of racking such large damage, but the fact remains that this typically does not happen at high levels of play. primarily due to the behavior of Fox's moves.

So while he does punishes hard, he does not punish nearly as hard as you say he does.

No he does not.
Fox's Dair does not lead into ANY of his kill moves.
The only time he can land a kill move after his Dair is if the Dair causes the opponent to trip.
The likely hood of which is rather small.

Which is why I was rather irritated that you landed the Usmash kill after the Dair.

Don't believe me? You can check it out with the debug code as well.

This is all false. every bit of it.

Dair combos into:
jab
grab
utilt
usmash
dsmash
possibly others that aren't important here

at varying %s... check it out...it's true. And it doesn't require a trip. I'm actually confused that you stated this as fact without checking it out thoroughly...

Outside of that, Nair combos into almost every attack he has.

0-40,50 combos for Fox aren't very rare....even at high play.. it's really simple to do that kind of damage without too much thought.

 

[da K.I.D.]

ignore him, I hit him in person with a dair to upsmash at 90 (the % where it comboes) and he still doesnt believe that its a true combo. That should have tipped you off not to listen to him.
Also, SL, the only sonic that beat my fox at apex was ITT and that was after I was pissed at losing a money match, but i deffo beat every other sonic that my fox played there

Thats what happens when you try to sound smart when you have no idea what you are talking about

also Sonic's recovery is leaps and bounds above foxs.

because of the recovery, sonics edgeguarding is better than foxs as well

 

[Kinzer]

I hope you're not assuming anything true combos from the counter from training mode. If you're not, ignore this, but if you are, want to know how I know that way of measuring is flawed?

Use any character (preferably Captain Falcon to make this epic), then proceed to to set the opponent to any character (preferably MK, for good measure), proceed to start the match and set MK's percentage to 999%, once that's done grab him, and then proceed to set his damage to 0% (so that what you see is even more convincing), then start pummeling like a madman, then proceed to ensue Baws/Gasps/Lulz/WTFs/etc.

 

[Fenrir VII]

ignore him, I hit him in person with a dair to upsmash at 90 (the % where it comboes) and he still doesnt believe that its a true combo. That should have tipped you off not to listen to him.

also Sonic's recovery is leaps and bounds above foxs.

because of the recovery, sonics edgeguarding is better than foxs as well

I was more responding for the community to see, rather than him...but yeah, thanks.

and yeah, I think Sonic's recovery is indeed better than Fox's... It goes farther, higher, and overall is more useful..

I believe Fox's is more variable.. .and better suitded for some stages (completely different discussion), but yeah, Sonic has the better recovery.

I think Fox has the better edgeguarding options, generally... but that is a VERY wide field...not only dependent on off-stage edgeguarding.

Fox is very adept at getting on and off the ledge... between the stage, and even off the stage very quickly, due to his falling and running speed.....

He also, as you stated before, has very good punishers... and can use them in the lag time that many characters have in their lag time if they land on the stage...

basically... against many characters, he can cover the edge very well...drop off as a surprise, and punish an on-stage comback...
Of course, this is char dependent... but it is quite effective against many of them.

His dair also semi-spikes, sending very low, and allowing for a shine afterward, in some cases...

Double jump rising dair send opponents downward, and puts Fox back on the stage... this is highly effective against quite a few chars, like the tether chars, spacies, etc...

 

[da K.I.D.]

as far as mobility goes, Sonic can cover more distance than fox but the distance that Fox does cover, i think he covers better and faster than Sonic, if that makes sence

 

[MarKO X]

as far as mobility goes, Sonic can cover more distance than fox but the distance that Fox does cover, i think he covers better and faster than Sonic, if that makes sence

In better terms.

Sonic has the ability to cover more ground than Fox due to his speed and such.
However, Fox has the ability to cover the distance that he can cover better than Sonic can.

How is Sonic better than... No.7 Fox

I don't think he is.
Fox has the pew pew,
Fox has legit setups into legit kill moves,
Fox can rack up damage almost as good, if not as good as Sonic.
but Fox can get gimped if read correctly offstage. (yes I know about his fair jump, but he still get gimped if read correctly)

But overall, I think Fox is better than Sonic (in this game). Sonic4life

 

[Kinzer]

What legit set-ups?

AFAIK Dair is easy to see coming (it only comes from above) and the worst that can happen if you just should the entire thing is that you get grabbed/jabbed (I believed this before I saw SL's post, I am not dickriding/bandwagoning).

 

[MarKO X]

Dair might be "easy to see coming" but so is a spindash.

Okay, thats not fair, we can cancel our spindash. So let me further explain.

Dair might be easy to see coming, but people still end up getting hit by it for whatever forsaken reason. Thus, it can lead to a series of utilts, a utilt into an aerial, a grab, a jab, a jab to a grab, an usmash, or a dsmash.

 

[da K.I.D.]

oh my god people...

can somebody from the fox boards please link the thread that show what dair combos into and at what %. The Fox boards did their homework, if dair is one of foxs best moves, dont you think the fox boards would have done the research into what it can and can not do?

if a fox main tells you that a dair combos into down smash at 60 and up smash at 90, i suggest you believe them.

also, if you think its easy to avoid dairs, than you must be playing MK, because if you do anything laggy around fox, dair out of shield is really not difficult at all to hit people with. and when you can do that out of shield and combo it into up smash, it can be very devastating.

stop trying to argue about characters you know nothing about.

saying foxs dair doesnt combo into his smashes is as insulting to fox as saying all sonic does is spindash

 

[Jim Morrison]

TBH, MK's D-air ***** Fox as soon as he falls below the edge. MK being the character you'll encounter the most by far, this is a very bad situation. Sure you can stall with Shine, but MK still has reaction time when you use up-B and have the little stall moment. Other characters can take advantage of this too. Fox's recovery is just very predictable as soon as he has to up-B (which becomes inevitable). Sure, you can move to 8 directions, but where will 7 of those lead to? If you're close enough near the edge you can use either up or diagonal up (given there is no FD like edge), which is still pretty **** predictable. Fox is unpredictable off-stage as long as he is above the ledge. Don't get below it against any character that is decent.

 

[Kinzer]

I'll believe when I see some referential, because I always end up shielding stuff like "that up-smash" after Dair (might've been the player, I'll admit this much).

And now that you happen to say that Dair can be done OoS... how is that possible when technically it's a drill (or mayeb teh fact that aerials have to be jumped and a rising Dair now..)? Not unless Fox somehow learned how to float OoS I don't know how that will be done (althoguh I mgiht be setting myself up for this one, Fox falls FAST, and maybe the other hits have enough stun for some other stuff)

One last thing, I'm not going to believe anybody because they main a character, that's like asking me to just believe that Captain Falcon can now immobilize his opponents and make Falcon Pawnch a OHKO in 0.5 seconds because somebody either has a C.Falcon icon next to their name or main Falcon.

Although MarKO kind of owned me, so there's no need.

 

[da K.I.D.]

very few characters have the ability to make fox recover from under the stage. its the same reason why falco doesnt get gimped as much as he should

 

[RenegadeRaven]

if you do anything laggy around fox

So, I guess we're assuming this is going to happen often?

I'm not doubting he can chain dair into crap, because I've played a pretty good Fox before and I know it can be done. The point here is setting up for that dair.

It's not as simple as jumping then dairing into someone as we all know, that's baaaad. If Fox is above you, what's he gonna do? Nair/Dair. Which a simple GTFO can take care of. Shielding works too. Unless you're using someone who can outspace/outprioritize/outrange his dair. Like IC, D3, DK, Bowser?, Sheik? And if you miss and your dair lags, we get free damage. But I'm sure good Fox's don't do such things.

I can see it being used as an OoS option.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Read my post on that.

I did I edited my post afterwards where I said you mentioned them being outdated.

Fox has quite a few true combos... that count as combos... not sure what you're saying.

No I was clarifying on what Kid had said earlier concerning brawl combos.

This is all false. every bit of it.

Dair combos into:
jab
grab
utilt
usmash
dsmash
possibly others that aren't important here

No I have checked repeatedly and I have tested it repeatedly.
The Dair does not offer enough hitstun for Fox to combo into his Usmash an Dsmash.
As I mentioned earlier, I used the debug code to check.
The hitstun provided by the Dair is not enough so that he can go into his kill moves.
The shield comes up on frame 1 so by the time the Dsmash or Usmash comes out, it gets powershielded. I have tested it repeatedly and it occurs on a consistent basis.
I thought I also mentioned earlier that at some percents it does combo into kill moves didn't I?

I know some characters tend to be more vulnerable to the combos due to the way the game handles hitstun but in general, Fox doesn't lead into his kill moves directly from the Dair.

@Kid: OH and did you not forget that every other time that you've attempted it the Usmash was power shielded? Yeah, selective memory is selective.
If you do not believe anything say, well simply realize i have the debug code as verification of my argument.

at varying %s... check it out...it's true. And it doesn't require a trip. I'm actually confused that you stated this as fact without checking it out thoroughly...

That is an assumption on your part and I am wondering if you didn't read my post thoroughly considering i mentioned using the debug code.

Outside of that, Nair combos into almost every attack he has.

I agree with this

0-40,50 combos for Fox aren't very rare....even at high play.. it's really simple to do that kind of damage without too much thought.

Read kid's post which was where I responded.
That is not what I was addressing, it was Kid's argument that Fox can pull off an 80% combo on a consistent basis as well as addressing his usageofthe terms.

ignore him, I hit him in person with a dair to upsmash at 90 (the % where it comboes) and he still doesnt believe that its a true combo. That should have tipped you off not to listen to him.

Oh look, ANOTHER instance in which Kid's mouth opens before he thnks.
Do you also not remember every other time where it was power shielded?
Or the fact that I said I tested with the debug code?

Also, SL, the only sonic that beat my fox at apex was ITT and that was after I was pissed at losing a money match, but i deffo beat every other sonic that my fox played there

We played two matches.
One where I lost and one where I beat you.
After which I kept telling you to stop directly trying to Dair through my Uair. Remember? It was either before or after the steak match we had.

Thats what happens when you try to sound smart when you have no idea what you are talking about

You should follow your own advice.
I use the character regularly since the beginning of brawl.
I figured you would have at least learned to think before you speak kid, especially after Apex. One would think your assumptions would cease.
I am looking forward to the steak you are going to buy me.

 

[da K.I.D.]

if its never supposed to happen, how did i do it?

dairs hitstun is damage dependant, as in it has more hitstun the more damage you have. It also has more hitstun depending on how many individual ticks of the dair you hit with, because it creates more damage. Theres also less hitstun on the dair based on how stale it is. to the point that even if the dair should combo into an upsmash at 90, if the dair is too stale there wont be enough hitstun to do so.

 

[aeghrur]

If he tests in training mode, where there is no stale moves, with the debug code, which gives frame by frame info, are you really going to doubt that he's right?
And even so, he can do it without training mode too with 2 controllers, and should SL need it, he can test with 1 stale through 9 stale... given he has the 2 controllers, lol.

 

[ShadowLink84]

if its never supposed to happen, how did i do it?

I shielded too late.
I tested the exact same circumstances using the debug code kid. You get powershielded.

stuff

Um no. THe number of hits has very little to do with the connection. Its actually due to how late you land it.
Basically as long as the last hit of a Fresh Dair lands, you can link into it no matter what (unless the opponent SDI's properly then you land the Usmash too late)

to the point that even if the dair should combo into an upsmash at 90, if the dair is too stale there wont be enough hitstun to do so.

Let us say you land a Dair. IF you land that final hit (which would be number 5 if you did a SH Dair as soon as possible) the Usmash will hit.
The thing is though that if you SDI it the Usmash will hit just a frame or two too late and the opponent can powershield.

Also did I not agree that it lands at certain percents?
People these days...

If you want I will check all the stale points and pinpoint exactly when it gets powershielded.


1.1 =Usmash hits(6 hits)
1.0=Usmash hits(6 hits)
.9=Usmash shielded (6 hits)

This was done with the opponent DI'ing the hits. (no SDI)
So Fox will land it provided it has either a fresh bonus or is fresh itself.
Once staled though hitstun drops and if the opponent DI's the Usmash will land just as the opponents shield comes up.


1.1=Usmash shielded( 4 hits landed)

Done with DI+SDI.

 

[Fenrir VII]

He's testing at wrong percentages... whether or not he used debug mode is of no consequence if he is using the wrong setup...

we also used frame data and debug mode to form these combos...after seeing that they already worked. Believe me... the Fox board has done much more testing than you alone could ever hope to...

Dair combos into utilt around 10-15%

Dair combos into dsmash around 60-70%

Dair combos into usmash upwards of around 85%.

i could check actual numbers...but I'm lazy here... there %s are roughly right...

please do not come and spout incorrect information... I'm sorry your tests didn't work out, but you are wrong here.

The number of hits simply adds more damage, increasing stun times...

testing was performed using only one hit of the Dair, as well as many hits of it...

You say that it doesn't combo into kill moves...and then you say that at some %s it does... I'm quite confused by your argument
done.

 

[ShadowLink84]

He's testing at wrong percentages... whether or not he used debug mode is of no consequence if he is using the wrong setup...

Wow did you just try to assume I used the wrong set up without any justificationa t all? Especial when I used YOUR percentages?

we also used frame data and debug mode to form these combos...after seeing that they already worked. Believe me... the Fox board has done much more testing than you alone could ever hope to...

That is disrespectful to me because you are saying that because I did not achieve the same results I am wrong?

That is hardly any good at all.

Did they test with DI and SDI respectively?
Did they test with both?
How many hits?
How late were the hits?
What mode?
Training mode or outside of training mode?
What character was used?

please do not come and spout incorrect information... I'm sorry your tests didn't work out, but you are wrong here.

Please do not come and start spouting that I am wrong simply because the results did not match up with your desires.

I tested with both DI and SDI by themselves and together and thatw as the data retrieved.

The number of hits simply adds more damage, increasing stun times...

Read the above post, I included the number of hits that were landed.
SDI doesnt let you land anything more than 3 or 4 hits for the Upsmash.
THat is also included with DI.
THis also includes Fox moving in the same direction as the opponents DI/SDI.

testing was performed using only one hit of the Dair, as well as many hits of it...

When the Dair is fresh the number of hits needed to be landed are irrelevant.
The hitstun from any singular hit is enough so that the Usmash will land.

THe multihits matter once the move has staled but if the opponent DI's they can move far enough that the hitstun cannot make up for it. I've tested it repeatedly.

I tested it with the following
DI (landed until th move had staled.)
SDI (didn't move them far enough)
DI+SDI (wouldn't land)

You say that it doesn't combo into kill moves...and then you say that at some %s it does... I'm quite confused by your argument
done.

I thought I had edited my first post repsonded to you.

I mean to say that yes, the Usmash will truly combo after the Dair when it is fresh and at certain percentages.
However, it will not combo if the opponent DI's and SDI's correctly.
Is that clearer?

 

[da K.I.D.]

No I have checked repeatedly and I have tested it repeatedly.
The Dair does not offer enough hitstun for Fox to combo into his Usmash an Dsmash.
As I mentioned earlier, I used the debug code to check.
The hitstun provided by the Dair is not enough so that he can go into his kill moves.

Also did I not agree that it lands at certain percents?
People these days...

If you want I will check all the stale points and pinpoint exactly when it gets powershielded.


1.1 =Usmash hits(6 hits)
1.0=Usmash hits(6 hits)

WTF?
Pick a story please

We played two matches.
One where I lost and one where I beat you.
After which I kept telling you to stop directly trying to Dair through my Uair. Remember? It was either before or after the steak match we had.

I wouldnt let myself be on even ground with you. We played a tie breaker and I won. 2-1.


Lets get back on topic please.
Fox can avoid getting gimped, but sonics recovery is much better.
Fox has powerful combos that go into even more powerful killmoves.
Sonic can punish more mistakes than fox can however his punishment is usually much weaker and much less gauranteed
Sonic has more effective range than fox
Fox has a projectile
Sonic is MUCH more adaptable to bad situations than Fox is.
Fox has more priority than Sonic in general
Sonics grab game is much better
Sonic doesnt have to deal with ******** locks
Fox attacks much faster
Sonic is heavier and has much more survivability
Sonic does much better in tournaments.

My Conclusion:
Sonic is a better character than Fox