Is Sonic Mid-tier material? Is he better than Bowser again? (Read the OP)

[ShadowLink84]

WTF?
Pick a story please

I actually had meant both my error. I tend to imply things rather than say them directly.

I wouldnt let myself be on even ground with you. We played a tie breaker and I won. 2-1.

I do not remember there being a third match Kid.

Quit your stupid grudge.

 

[Umby]

Let's end this right now.

Sonic has Amy furry.

Fox has Krystal furry.

Fox wins.

 

[RenegadeRaven]

So he can rack up damage really, and he has a guaranteed(?) Usmash from a dair at really high %'s. But that's if it isn't stall right? And I'm more than sure that dair isn't going to be fresh, since it seems to be so important.

The point is. It's not gonna happen too often. Especially since dair needs a set up itself right?

What's the priority on dair, and his other aerials? Their hitbox's? I'll venture to their boards real quick. =o

 

[Jim Morrison]

Let's end this right now.

Sonic has Amy furry.

Fox has Krystal furry.

Fox wins.

He has Creampie
He has the other females that Fox doesn't.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Let's end this right now.

Sonic has Blaze furry.

Fox has Krystal furry.

Fox wins.

He has Creampie
He has the other females that Fox doesn't.

He ain'ta pedo. <_<

 

[Chis]

And how about we leave the spam out of this thread?

 

[Jim Morrison]

Chis I propose we abort this discussion because it seems like it's not getting anywhere soon, and with the tier list coming out this week, I don't think there's much to discuss.

Of course, you can also keep it open :O

 

[Chis]

What are you talking about? We've done 6/9. Why wouldn't there be much to discuss?

Carry on.

 

[MarKO X]

gf has a point to an extent.

the new tierlist cometh soon, and it could change things...........

 

[da K.I.D.]

i say we keep going until then. its fun when people arent being ********

 

[Chis]

I say we should keep going untill Zelda.

 

[Kinzer]

Yiff yiff yiff yiff yiff yiff (what is yiff anyway, this was just the first thing that came to me, I'm tired, and I felt like being ********).

Eh okay but seriously I still stand by my opinion that Sonic > Fox as a stand-alone character, no matter how hard you might try and work around your MUs, it's undeniable that they are there unless the metagame changes.

Fox does make a good counterpick, but why would you want to second (let alone main) a character that isn't top tires when it comes down to the skin of your teeth in competitive play? It's not smart, but meh oh well, we all do our own @#$%.

Besides, I could just say the same thing about Marth & G&W but now we're not getting anywhere are we? Point is **** characters are ****, players controlling said character though... that's a different story.

 

[<π]

fox is a much stronger character. (read Fenrir's posts)


Tourney results don't define how good or viable a character is. And isn't something that should really be concidered in this debate. Character match ups and over all statistics are what define character.

 

[Chis]

Yiff yiff yiff yiff yiff yiff (what is yiff anyway, this was just the first thing that came to me, I'm tired, and I felt like being ********).

....

Tourney results don't define how good or viable a character is. And isn't something that should really be concidered in this debate. Character match ups and over all statistics are what define character.

It gives an idea on how tourney variable the character is. Which also defines how 'good' they are in tourneys.

 

[ShadowLink84]

fox is a much stronger character. (read Fenrir's posts)


Tourney results don't define how good or viable a character is. And isn't something that should really be concidered in this debate. Character match ups and over all statistics are what define character.

I oncur.
THe tournament results are similar to creating weighed matchups.
As such they are very easily swayed by such things as popularity.
So some characters like Fox may suffer when ZSS is very popular while he may see a boost when ZSS has become much less used.

 

[<π]

And similarly fox see very little action in tourney even when compared to sonic. We've agreed that sheik, over all, is a better character but I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that her results fail in comparison to his. It obvious that if you have more people playing a character you increase the chances of seeing that character place well.

Put simply If 10 sonics show up at a tourney and 2 foxes show up You'll more likely see a sonic placeing higher.

 

[Kinzer]

We?

...But forget about it I guess, we've moved on from that.

Also please go read my second blog, I don't feel like explaining a second time about tournaments and @#$%.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Let's end this right now.

Sonic has Amy furry.

Fox has Krystal furry.

Fox wins.

Knuckles has Julie-Su furry so HE wins. ^_^

Spoiler

loljk PLEASE tell me we aren't going to get into that Digimon discussion we had in the chat the other day.... >.>

 

[aeghrur]

Wait, wait, wait.
I'm with Kinzer.
We? Where did the sonic boards collectively say, "Yeah, we agree, sheik is better than sonic"?
Or did the discussion just get nowhere and both boards said their respective characters were better?(<- what I thought happened)

 

[<π]

So... sonic is better than sheik?

 

[Browny]

who cares

Sonic performs better in real tournaments, sheik is better against the whole cast on average

make what you want from that

btw kinzer you really dont wanna be posting that word on forums hahaha

 

[Fenrir VII]

Couple things... I've been pretty longwinded in this thread, so I'll make it quick...

lasers are an instant move-refresher... that purpose, along with forcing approaches... are its two main uses...

Therefore, Dair should never really be stale... plus, Dair is not the staple of Fox play as it used to be, as it is pretty predictable...

a one-hit dair... if nothing else... combos into everything I mentioned before...

most often, Dair will only hit 3-4 times... so SDI and DI aren't really a factor...

of course, every combo is tested and approved with DI


Fox's four "terrible" matches, as I posted before... are not as bad as previously thought...

and he does better against almost the entire upper cast... making him the stronger character, at least in tournaments.

 

[ShadowLink84]

a one-hit dair... if nothing else... combos into everything I mentioned before...

most often, Dair will only hit 3-4 times... so SDI and DI aren't really a factor...

I disagree. With both DI and SDI you can avoid the kill setup.
And I also affirmed what you said about multihit and single hit.

of course, every combo is tested and approved with DI

Did they do SDI as well?
Cause I know DI will not be enough.

Fox's four "terrible" matches, as I posted before... are not as bad as previously thought...

Can you provide more recent ratios?

and he does better against almost the entire upper cast... making him the stronger character, at least in tournaments.

I am not too sure about that primarily because of the way the tournament results have been working.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Wow people still pulling the fanboy to tournament card out of their *****. I can agree that there's more people who play Snoic than Fox, but you must realize, you have to be GOOD in order to place. You can knock out all those Sonics if you're better than them. But because there's more Sonics there's also more good people. Therefore there has been tapped deeper into his skills and limits and has advanced as a character quickly. This is why Sonic is better AT THE MOMENT than Fox. Because Fox has less great players, his development goes slower, thus making him worse AT THE MOMENT. You can't state 'Fox is better, but because he hasn't seen a lot of play we haven't been able to show it yet' or something like that. It is basically what you are saying.

In conclusion, fanboy card is banned now.

 

[aeghrur]

Lol, it's funny.
Before, it was the Fsbr that was like, show us tourny results and sonic will go up. Then we did, and he didn't go up.
Now it's like, we have tourny results, show us yours, or else sonic should go up. :o
OMG, WE'VE BECOME LIKE THE FSBR! Lol.
And Fenrir, how well does Fox do against the current high tiers?
He seems to do pretty well vs the top tiers (MK, Snake, Falco, DDD), but how good is he against, say, Marth, Diddy, maybe even Oli, etc.

 

[Sukai]

Fox and Marth are roughly even.

Diddy is not in Fox's favor, but it's not a "bad" match up, kind of the same with Olimar, but because Olimar cannot handle camping very well, it's slightly even.

This is what happens when there aren't any guidelines to credit reason to why Sonic is better than "X" character.
I just see people launching back and forth with bases to why which is better than the other, then someone else denying their basis with their own.
Now it's chalked to bias, because no side is even acknowledging the other.
We gave our argument and said that Fox is better, and because of lack of proper guidelines to how we should give reason, our standing reasons are just as credible as yours.
Do with it as you see fit, but if it comes to this, then there's basically no point in asking for our input if it's just going to get shut down and ignored.

 

[JayBee]

who cares

Sonic performs better in real tournaments, sheik is better against the whole cast on average

make what you want from that

btw kinzer you really dont wanna be posting that word on forums hahaha

wait a minute.

sonic performs better in tourneys is not the end all be all, because we know that even though that there are not a million sonic's out there the truth is that not only more sonics are going out there as of late, the metagame of sonic has progressed a lot more than fox or shiek, which combined with the overall disrespect of sonic's viability (leading to the average smasher not knowing crap about him) gives sonic a solid environment to do this well. i think, that if a character may naturally be better than sonic, but doesn't do as well in tourneys, its because competative brawl relies heavily on things that sonic accels in, at the moment. and when i look at characters that have very, very, bad matchups (regardless of the reason) how does its many tools matter overall if sonic has less tools but does better?

since this game apparently hasn't been out long enough, we also have to consider the potential of these characters we compare, which brings more speculation than truth, especially when you can't really name players for them or when the number that participate in tourneys are very small. this is the hardest part from what I've seen in this thread, and quite honestly, in many cases sonics can say "here's our tourney results" and stop there, since those other characters clearly can't compete with that.

my question is, if the character has better tourney results, but is a naturally less equipped than another not as well placing character, does this automatically make that characer superior, or does this balance out the issue and make the comparison 'just as good as"? Or is the tournament viablity of Sonic in reality solely based on the competetive brawlers reliance on mindgames, and survivability, along with the general lack of sonic knowledge due to past and lingering criticisms?

 

[da K.I.D.]

1. yes sonic is better than shiek
2. yes, sonic is better than fox.
3. yes, sonic is getting better tourney results because he is a better character.
4. NO, people no longer lack the matchup or game experience to fight sonic.
5. The only way that Fox (or generally any character with weaker results) can say that they are better than sonic, is if they freely admit that we as sonic players are legitamately better players at the game of Brawl than players of those characters.

 

[Camalange]

1. yes sonic is better than shiek
2. yes, sonic is better than fox.
3. yes, sonic is getting better tourney results because he is a better character.
4. NO, people no longer lack the matchup or game experience to fight sonic.
5. The only way that Fox (or generally any character with weaker results) can say that they are better than sonic, is if they freely admit that we as sonic players are legitamately better players at the game of Brawl than players of those characters.

^^QFT

Especially number 5.

 

[JayBee]

interesting KID. i like #5, but that may incite the flames of disaster....

lolKIDisdaiblistriggerlol

 

[Chis]

This is what happens when there aren't any guidelines to credit reason to why Sonic is better than "X" character.
I just see people launching back and forth with bases to why which is better than the other, then someone else denying their basis with their own.
Now it's chalked to bias, because no side is even acknowledging the other.
We gave our argument and said that Fox is better, and because of lack of proper guidelines to how we should give reason, our standing reasons are just as credible as yours.
Do with it as you see fit, but if it comes to this, then there's basically no point in asking for our input if it's just going to get shut down and ignored.

Well as the guide lines people should need is common sense and the rest is the rest is in the OP. I can't tell people how to discuss things in a civil manor. If anyone wants to achieve anything from this thread they should state valid reasons. Also I don't see people not acknowledging each other; I've seen valid points back up with evidence imo. Well on most part.

 

[Kinzer]

Well, there's KID for you, whether it will start flame wars or not, he doesn't afraid of anything.

Even though I agree with him.

So many tourney-placing Sonic's have been showing up, so there's no excuse for anybody not to know the MU anymore (even though Sonic is quite diverse, usually the people who play him stick to one plan... strangely it works.)

Most high tier characters have a lot of people playing them because they're good yes? Well now the opposite can be said for bad/mid/low-tier character because people would rather not have to do that kind of work. You all know how Boss works his magic with the Mario bros, and Luigi in specific has people like Biglou and... okay so I can't name any other Weegee players, but they are out there just because I can't recall them.

But Hell we already know that other than D3 Luigi is a better character than Sonic. So why is it that I am not seeing anybody else doing work with their character? I can EASILY name 5 Sonics who place... or at least by place get satisfactory results for what is suppose to be the 7th worst character in this game; so where is every other character "crusader?" I'll admit maybe this will be biased, and I know for example Reflex is stepping his @#$% up for PT... but why are people recognizing PT because of one, maybe two people (Typh has a good PT I heard) whereas people still don't want to acknowledge Sonic? Is it because other than _X_ few of us have yet to place first? That might be one reason why.

Then again the same thing can be said for some of these other characters who are in similar situations. If Fox or Sheik are better characters than Sonic, why hasn't anybody gone out there and proven that true? There's no excuse for Sheik because she actually is a tourney viable character save for a few MUs where she can turn into her favor with Down-B, and whether or not they require more or less work, look where we stand in the metagame as of now. I would assume that when you go higher up on the tier list, it means less work to be done for the same or better results... if this were true than tier list is even moar flawed than I thought.

Kojin, potential can't be considered for a tier-list, if that were true than I want to see Falcon above MK in SSS tier, just because "we don't know whether or not when and if he will ever surpass Meta Knight." IMO the tier list is suppose to reflect the metagame at the time it was made, and right now Sonic has made a huge jump just as you said.

Falco/D3 are great examples of characters who are going to take drops because of another characters' metagame evolving that severely affects them (ICs), so why are we not going to get Sonic higher because some characters are "believed" to still be better than Sonic or otherwise have undisplayed potential? Screw that @#$%, people are free to correct me wrong WHEN THEY CAN BACK IT UP, but as of now there is no reason why Sonic should not rise somewhat considerably.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I agree 150% with post 832 in this thread

 

[Chis]

Well, there's KID for you, whether it will start flame wars or not, he doesn't afraid of anything.

Even though I agree with him.

So many tourney-placing Sonic's have been showing up, so there's no excuse for anybody not to know the MU anymore (even though Sonic is quite diverse, usually the people who play him stick to one plan... strangely it works.)

Most high tier characters have a lot of people playing them because they're good yes? Well now the opposite can be said for bad/mid/low-tier character because people would rather not have to do that kind of work. You all know how Boss works his magic with the Mario bros, and Luigi in specific has people like Biglou and... okay so I can't name any other Weegee players, but they are out there just because I can't recall them.

But Hell we already know that other than D3 Luigi is a better character than Sonic. So why is it that I am not seeing anybody else doing work with their character? I can EASILY name 5 Sonics who place... or at least by place get satisfactory results for what is suppose to be the 7th worst character in this game; so where is every other character "crusader?" I'll admit maybe this will be biased, and I know for example Reflex is stepping his @#$% up for PT... but why are people recognizing PT because of one, maybe two people (Typh has a good PT I heard) whereas people still don't want to acknowledge Sonic? Is it because other than _X_ few of us have yet to place first? That might be one reason why.

Then again the same thing can be said for some of these other characters who are in similar situations. If Fox or Sheik are better characters than Sonic, why hasn't anybody gone out there and proven that true? There's no excuse for Sheik because she actually is a tourney viable character save for a few MUs where she can turn into her favor with Down-B, and whether or not they require more or less work, look where we stand in the metagame as of now. I would assume that when you go higher up on the tier list, it means less work to be done for the same or better results... if this were true than tier list is even moar flawed than I thought.

Kojin, potential can't be considered for a tier-list, if that were true than I want to see Falcon above MK in SSS tier, just because "we don't know whether or not when and if he will ever surpass Meta Knight." IMO the tier list is suppose to reflect the metagame at the time it was made, and right now Sonic has made a huge jump just as you said.

Falco/D3 are great examples of characters who are going to take drops because of another characters' metagame evolving that severely affects them (ICs), so why are we not going to get Sonic higher because some characters are "believed" to still be better than Sonic or otherwise have undisplayed potential? Screw that @#$%, people are free to correct me wrong WHEN THEY CAN BACK IT UP, but as of now there is no reason why Sonic should not rise somewhat considerably.

This I agree with.

 

[aeghrur]

Kojin's big post full of questions just basically shows how flawed our match-up systems are.
Iirc, adumbrodeus has been trying to revamp it or something, but the point is that theoretical matchups are... well... poorly done because things like mindgame potential, positioning, and such have no influence on them causing theoretical matchups to be far from being the real thing. This is why while most characters have better match-ups than sonic in these flawed match-up charts, they are not necessarily better. =/

 

[Jim Morrison]

So many tourney-placing Sonic's have been showing up, so there's no excuse for anybody not to know the MU anymore (even though Sonic is quite diverse, usually the people who play him stick to one plan... strangely it works.)

Great post Kinzer, but what bothers me is that nearly no one has Sonic expierence. This is because Sonics are CONCENTRATED. They are in Texas, Nevada, New York/Jersey, few in Maryland and other states might have one mediocre Sonic. You can't tell people 'there you have 10 Sonics in New York, now you know the matchup'. Honestly, if I pick a random person on SWF (that does have knowledge about something) chances are he still doesn't know the matchup if he does not live in any of the Sonic states.

 

[Kinzer]

I guess you're right.

Though I would like to counter that by saying that the only Sonic's are really in the MD/VA and NJ/NY area.

Espy has Texas to himself, _X_ has Utah, I... I guess I have Vegas, I won't say I've taken over the entire state on my own, but I wouldn't be surprised if I were the only real competition here. I suppose you then have some Sonic's in the Midwest that I don't keep up with... none of them are active sadly, but I'll at least acknowledge that they're there just because I forget/don't know who they are. :/

...There might even be some in California, but I'm not aware of any... then again they're either top-tires or May-Lay!, so blech...

You might be right though... however the Atlantic North REALLY does not have any excuse, not with the majority of us being there anyway.

 

[Camalange]

I agree 150% with post 832 in this thread

As do I.

gg Kinzer


@Gf2 - Not putting Sonic higher on the Tier List because of "Matchup Johns" is the stupidest thing I've ever heard in my life. I've never EVER heard that mentioned for any other character. They can not deny an entire year worths of consistent tournament placings.

Espy and Malcolm may be our only "zomgbig name" Sonics, but almost every Sonic that posts on our board (that's a regular) places WELL in whatever tourney they've been to/go to. That would not be possible if Sonic wasn't a moderatley good stand-alone character.

There's also a **** load of Sonics in the Tri-State area I've noticed XD

 

[JMan8891]

JMan, Umby, and Tenki all say hello

Sincerely,

ATL SOUTH

 

[Umby]

Umby is on the verge of not maining Sonic anymore.