Is Sonic Mid-tier material? Is he better than Bowser again? (Read the OP)

[Kinzer]

Tenki also can't go to many tourneys because of Subway.

So either you get all the credit Jman or Doc was right about not many Sonic mains being about outside of the MD/VA/Tri-State area.

 

[Chis]

Back on topic please.

 

[Kinzer]

I suggest we make these next discussions quick, as there is 6 days before the next tier list, and they said it was finalized so I still question why we even bother, and this will pretty much be voided once it comes out but I'm not the discussion leader so we'll go until Zelda just as you said.

Of course I'm going to say right now that Sonic > Fox as a stand-alone character, but that might be the only reason he would be higher up on the tier list, there may be others but I can't see them.

Bowser ought to be very interesting.

 

[Chis]

I suggest we make these next discussions quick, as there is 6 days before the next tier list, and they said it was finalized so I still question why we even bother, and this will pretty much be voided once it comes out but I'm not the discussion leader so we'll go until Zelda just as you said.

Of course I'm going to say right now that Sonic > Fox as a stand-alone character, but that might be the only reason he would be higher up on the tier list, there may be others but I can't see them.

Bowser ought to be very interesting.

My suggestion is why not? I don't see what's wrong by continuing discussions when the list is out. The new tier list will still be basis for discussion, like all other tier lists before it. If Sonic gets higher then Bowser, somehow, the question will still remain HOW is he better then Bowser.

And do not rush, it ruins the discussion. And we're still on Fox.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I thought it was coming out on the 5th?

 

[Kinzer]

It is.

10IstillthinkSonicisbetter.Lolbiasmightassistthis,butohwellaslongIknowSonicdoesn'tsuck(much)hecanbeaboveMK'splaceinmyheart.

 

[JayBee]

i honestly can't wait for the new list.

 

[ithrowthings]

If Sonic gets higher then Bowser, somehow, the question will still remain HOW is he better then Bowser.

Name me a good bowser player.... Sliq? Even my sonic is capable of beating Sliq's bowser. If a decent Sonic can beat the BEST Bowser, Sonic > Bowser.

As far as Sonic > Fox, Fox gets hard CP'd by pika. Sonic does not. that's all I got.

 

[Kinzer]

Uh... you're right ITT... about Sonic (probably) being a better character, but not for the right reasons.

@#$%, I can't be on this computer anymore, I'll explain it later

 

[Sliq]

Name me a good bowser player.... Sliq? Even my sonic is capable of beating Sliq's bowser. If a decent Sonic can beat the BEST Bowser, Sonic > Bowser.

As far as Sonic > Fox, Fox gets hard CP'd by pika. Sonic does not. that's all I got.

Just because one character has a good matchup over another character makes said character better.

Ice Climbers countered Sheik in Melee, yet Sheik is higher on the tier list.

Also, that sounds like a challenge, and I accept.

 

[Browny]

apples and oranges etc

you cant compare the matchup between sheik and IC as a factor which determines both of thier placement, when we're considering the matchups of sonic and fox against the entire cast, no each other

 

[Chis]

Name me a good bowser player.... Sliq? Even my sonic is capable of beating Sliq's bowser. If a decent Sonic can beat the BEST Bowser, Sonic > Bowser.

You took my post out of context.

I was using Bowser as an example, since I think Zelda will go down....

smh

Edit: Get back on topic.

Even though this discussion has some what broken down...

 

[ithrowthings]

Actually, we were mostly talking about bowser and they were arguing that just because a mediocre sonic can beat the best bowser doesn't mean that sonic is better than bowser. I've only been to a couple tourneys with Sliq. We both tied at C4 and I think I placed better than him WAAAY back at TYM 2 or 3 or whatever it was (when we played some friendlies)

Also from what I've heard, Sliq is out of practice and hasn't been performing as well with Bowser as he should be. I still think that on the highest level of play, If the best Sonic player in the world enters the same tourney as the best bowser in the world, the best Sonic player will place higher every time. I kinda thought that's what the tier list was supposed to be all about, the highest level of play and how well they can perform in a tournament.

According to Ankoku's list Sonic blows Bowser clean out of the water. (Fox too for that matter) Which brings me back to what we are currently talking about (Fox). On the highest level of play Sonic has better recovery options, more tricksies, and a better grab game than fox. Fox has lasers, drill combos, and a good usmash. Most importantly though, Fox has a HUGE weakness against pikachu. I've seen a Fox main get absolutely WRECKED by someone who mains Mario but just CP'd pika against fox. If someone who doesn't even main pika can wreck a fox THAT hard, fox is garbage.

 

[Chis]

ITT.

We are not talking about Bowser. We are on Fox.

Stop trying to derail things.

Edit: Fine fine

 

[ithrowthings]

I went back to Fox in my entire last paragraph. In regards to Bowser I was merely expounding on a previous statement.

 

[Fenrir VII]

According to Ankoku's list Sonic blows Bowser clean out of the water. (Fox too for that matter) Which brings me back to what we are currently talking about (Fox). On the highest level of play Sonic has better recovery options, more tricksies, and a better grab game than fox. Fox has lasers, drill combos, and a good usmash. Most importantly though, Fox has a HUGE weakness against pikachu. I've seen a Fox main get absolutely WRECKED by someone who mains Mario but just CP'd pika against fox. If someone who doesn't even main pika can wreck a fox THAT hard, fox is garbage.

If any Fox gets beaten by a non-maining Pika... well, they deserve to lose...

Pika should not be wrecking Fox on any skill level... especially if the pika player is inexperienced... That is a poor Fox player...and should not be an example.

To counter your example with another... again, Zeton (one of the best Fox players around) went just about even with Anther in a recent tournament. The match went to last stock, high-percentage... now Anther is notably an incredible Pika... and even he has said all along that the match isn't that bad...

 

[ithrowthings]

These are just things I've seen with my own eyes. So, you are correct those matches weren't at the highest level of play and aren't valid to this argument.

As far as Anther fighting Zeton, I was not aware of that. I've played Anther and been to several tournaments with him and I know that he is a good player. If he isn't capable of utterly destroying a fox then the matchup ratio is probably not "LOL" as the fox matchup forums state. As far as Sonic being better than Fox, in all honesty it's probably true that the highest level fox player will probably place better than the highest level sonic player on average. However, I don't think the gap is nearly as large as the tier list portrays it.

 

[JayBee]

If any Fox gets beaten by a non-maining Pika... well, they deserve to lose...

Pika should not be wrecking Fox on any skill level... especially if the pika player is inexperienced... That is a poor Fox player...and should not be an example.

To counter your example with another... again, Zeton (one of the best Fox players around) went just about even with Anther in a recent tournament. The match went to last stock, high-percentage... now Anther is notably an incredible Pika... and even he has said all along that the match isn't that bad...

lol that's because anthers pika is very defensive and ledge camps the **** outta you lol.
that's enough of that cause im not hatin on anther What are other notcable fox players that go to tourneys on a decent basis, and what are thier opinions on the matchup, as well as what tehy say you have to do to win? my point is, if they say something like, "you have to run the **** awa" a lot, or something that proves that fox's normal style of play is severely limited agaisnt a regular tourney character, then what does that say? Just because Espy can fight marths with sonic well doesn't make the matchup change for the rest of us, and this applies for fox as well.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Im not notable but I am a fox player, and I may be behind on the meta, but I am good and I will admit that personally when I play against pikapika, I have to change the entirety of my fox playstyle, And it requires me to camp about 300% harder than I normally do. I also feel that Many pikas would walk into the match with an auto win mindset and might rest on their laurels in a match like this, which would allow the fox to either beat teh pika, or get much closer to beating him than they normally would. however, this is all just one good fox players opinion

 

[Fenrir VII]

I can't really speak for the other Foxes here...

But Fox will camp Pika pretty hard... as it works pretty well, and that's a Fox mindset in a lot of matches...

Other than that, he just has to avoid shield grabs... which Fox players should be able to do. The only noticeable differences in the Pika match from a normal are:

Fox camps a bit more... (this is in a lot of characters that he can camp, though)
Fox doesn't use spontaneous usmashes or anything risky that could be shield grabbed.
Fox always lands with good spacing, or behind shield (which he really should be doing in every match, this one is just more important...)
And he stays in the air a bit more, to avoid random grabs...


Overall, I don't really play that much differently... just try to be more precise about it.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Pika has garbage grab range anyway.
It also looks like a ******** dinosaur trying to grab <_<.

Fenrir, what would be his worst matchups then if pika is not a bad matchup for him as is said?

 

[JayBee]

hold up a sec. pika can camp too. and with QAC and projectiles that have knockback, he can do it better than fox in the first place, and it seems harder to me to consistantly camp a pika who can reach you with a special attack that's ******** fast like that. If fox camps, he loses opportunities to kill, and his dair becomes less useful, which from what im hearing he uses often. camping doesn't take any of pika's tools away, since he can QA in and out of range with ease, attack, and do it again. and that's without grabs. so even if people can make the matchup better for them, that doesn't change the great lengths you have to go to change your style of play on a character who can camp better than you. just sayin.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Pika has garbage grab range anyway.
It also looks like a ******** dinosaur trying to grab <_<.

Fenrir, what would be his worst matchups then if pika is not a bad matchup for him as is said?

The threat of an infinite cg still keeps Pika as a harder matchup... just not as bad as previously thought, at least imo, and absolutely not unwinnable.

Fox's harder matchups include pika, Sheik (although the lock is escapable with tight timing), and Luigi (imo)

I'm not saying that he doesn't have bad matchups... I'm saying that people list these 4 matchups as unwinnable, and that just isn't the case...

hold up a sec. pika can camp too. and with QAC and projectiles that have knockback, he can do it better than fox in the first place, and it seems harder to me to consistantly camp a pika who can reach you with a special attack that's ******** fast like that. If fox camps, he loses opportunities to kill, and his dair becomes less useful, which from what im hearing he uses often. camping doesn't take any of pika's tools away, since he can QA in and out of range with ease, attack, and do it again. and that's without grabs. so even if people can make the matchup better for them, that doesn't change the great lengths you have to go to change your style of play on a character who can camp better than you. just sayin.

Nah, Fox can avoid Pika's camping pretty easily...and it leaves Pika open for other attacks, while he is still in the lag from the projectile (even while jumping...like, SH thunderjolt doesn't cancel.

QA also is telegraphed, and has momentary startup lag, which is really easy to avoid the attack while camping.

And to correct the middle portion, if Fox camps, he forces his opponent to approach... greatly increasing his options since Fox is actually a better defensive character than offensive. Case in point, Dair is only used for punishment...not for any kind of approach (at least it should never be use to approach.)

it actually increases the number of tools available to Fox, rather than decreasing, as you say...

Brawl is a more defensive game... in quite a few cases, the person approaching has fewer options than the one playing defensively... the defensive player is able to read what the approacher is doing before he even gets close, and determine a counter attack plan while the approacher has to literally guess what the defensive player will pull...

and since Fox is one of the best punishing characters in the game... if he catches an approach correctly, he can put quite a bit of damage or kill the approacher with relative ease.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Actually that was my error fenrir.
I meant to say "not as bad a matchup."
Not "not a bad matchup."

 

[Exceladon City]

I don't see why you guys think Luigi is that hard. He really isn't.

 

[ithrowthings]

Oreo, If TheMann shows up to the next circuit event, fight his luigi... It's scary how helpless he makes me feel... SCARY!

 

[Exceladon City]

Oreo, If TheMann shows up to the next circuit event, fight his luigi... It's scary how helpless he makes me feel... SCARY!

I MM'ed him at C4. I went to last match, last stock against him. He won however. Stupid mistake on my part and boy did he f*ck me for it. Sonic v Luigi is harder than Fox v Luigi imo.

 

[da K.I.D.]

i think they are the same in terms of difficulty in that particular match.

how does fox do against wario.
actually, in my mind the top five characters in the game as of right now are:
MK
Snake
DDD
Wario
Diddy
in that order. how does fox do against all of them
I think Sonic does better against MK
I think Fox does better against snake
I think they both do about the same against D3
Fox does slightly better against diddy
but i dont know about wario

 

[Fenrir VII]

About Luigi, you may very well be right. I mean, I do beat Luigis... it just feels like I'm trying harder than I should be... : /

i think they are the same in terms of difficulty in that particular match.

how does fox do against wario.
actually, in my mind the top five characters in the game as of right now are:
MK
Snake
DDD
Wario
Diddy
in that order. how does fox do against all of them
I think Sonic does better against MK
I think Fox does better against snake
I think they both do about the same against D3
Fox does slightly better against diddy
but i dont know about wario

Against MK, I really don't know how Sonic would do better than Fox... I don't know, though. Fox gets around tornado easily, by escaping it after it hits and punishing with Dair. Shield usmash mixed with dash shields really makes MK have to be very careful. it hits a slightly misspaced glide attack, too... I call it about 6-4 for MK

Snake vs Fox is mostly even. Fox outcamps, shoots grenades, combos really well, and can kill Snake... Snake can kill Fox. It's a good match.

Fox vs DDD is even, too... Fox can combo and kill without fear of CG, shield usmash is very nice... and Fox is actually quite good at edgeguarding him. DDD can edgeguard Fox too, and kill him...

Diddy vs Fox is mostly even, too, because Fox can pressure Diddy out of his banana game, and torture his recovery.

Fox vs Wario is also mostly even (sensing a trend?). Fox can combo and kill... He's actually one of the better Wario edgeguarders since his dsmash sends low, and dair wrecks a bike, when it can hit.

 

[Chis]

I've just finish updating the OP, you guys should check it out. And now we talk about Bowser wowser.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

These last 58 pages are now invalid and useless since it is now a fact that Sonic is better than all of them as stated by the current tier list



Better than Bowser? Erm...no probably not. He's got that fancy thing on MK and does ok vs other people. But he does get trashed by DeDeDe and DK I think?

To be honest, you could completely bypass this discussion and say Sonic is better than Bowser simply because of one undenyable fact

It's Bowser

 

[Kinzer]

Bowser, getting ***** by Donkey Bong?

I think you're confusing him for the ICs Rick.

But yeah, other than D3 and ICs, Bowser seems to be a more solid character than Sonic.

Bowser has a nice defensive game, and in a game where defense is King, Bowser is the Koopa King.

...Wonder who has that advantage though in the few times Bowser would have to approach... I'm just gonna be biased and say it's Sonic because he's got that speed and I main him and he seems fast and @#$% but I can be convinced otherwise.

...Guah, I should just go bed already da****!

That's all I will say for now though, and I heard that most scenes are like limiting/banning this kind of thing against Bowser, so that would just further prove his case.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Hmm that might have been a while ago then, either that or I'm gettin mixed up. I could see DK being bad for Bowser though since he eliminates both the things that make Bowser good - range and grab releases

Don't forget Bowser has OoS Fortress stuff and grab release powers. And crazy range/power. And that stupid Koopa Klaw

 

[Kinzer]

"Don't forget Bowser has OoS Fortress stuff and grab release powers. And crazy range/power. And that stupid Koopa Klaw"

Precisely why I said Bowser does so good on defense.

Also let's see what the Bowser mains have to say abou the MU against Donkey Bong, if they read this. I doubt that Donkey Bong poses any threat to Bowser but I could be wrong.

 

[aeghrur]

I also think that bowser is better... on paper.
In tournaments, bowser is basically unviable due to DDD's small-step CG.
However, on paper, bowser has a lot more.
Fortress OoS=AMAZING
Grab-release= AMAZING
He can bowser-cide
And I don't know much else about bowser, lol.

 

[Chis]

Can someone post a link of this thread in their 'Tier discussion' thread or/and 'match up' thread? Thanks.

 

[Phiddlesticks]

DK has the advantage against Bowser, but it's nowhere near trashed/***** level.

I'll post a link in the Bowser board's matchup thread. And speaking of the Bowser board's matchup thread, Sonic will probably be the next character discussed, so get ready.

 

[MrEh]

Bowser has Fortress OoS, which is GOD. If Sonic's spring made him spin around like a crazed idiot, Sonic would be high tier. lol

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Springing gives us the greatest joy in existence according to Sonic's face so we get an A for effort.

I wish spring had a hitbox.

 

[MrEh]

If Sonic spun around like an idiot after springing, that would be epic. Spring Fortress OoS. lol