Is Sonic Mid-tier material? Is he better than Bowser again? (Read the OP)

[B!squick]

I thought D3 was the most resistant to vertical kos, and DK to horizontal...I'm not sure. I know Bowser is the heaviest, but does that mean he has the best momentum cancelling?

FAir starts on frame 8, so it's generally the aerial we use for momentum breaking. Not sure how fast of an attack you would need to FF to over ride the reduction in knock back. :/ Either way, Bowser has awesome survivability.

 

[infomon]

The frame an attack's hitbox comes out has nothing to do with momentum-cancelling. All aerials in the game (except Sonic's Dair, lol) are equivalent in terms of when they allow you to fastfall. The only other relevant metric is the frame at which they end, that is, the sooner they allow you to use a jump or special which might also help you. Bowser doesn't really have one though; his jump helps a bit, but that's it.

tl;dr: Bowser's momentum-cancelling is pretty terrible. But he's freakin' heavy.

 

[Hobobloke]

I remember a chart a while ago showing who lived the longest vertically and horizontally, I think DDD lived longer vertically but overall Bowser lives the longest (taking horizontal and vertical into account).

 

[BSP]

Well, I kinda got us off-topic, lets not worry about who lives longest.

 

[B!squick]

The frame an attack's hitbox comes out has nothing to do with momentum-cancelling. All aerials in the game (except Sonic's Dair, lol) are equivalent in terms of when they allow you to fastfall. The only other relevant metric is the frame at which they end, that is, the sooner they allow you to use a jump or special which might also help you. Bowser doesn't really have one though; his jump helps a bit, but that's it.

tl;dr: Bowser's momentum-cancelling is pretty terrible. But he's freakin' heavy.

Okay, yeah, I read up on how DI works with aerials. Not sure if auto cancel frames matter, but if not then FAir is still the fastest at 41 frames.

 

[Flayl]

DK is the character that lives the longest, he is one of the heaviest and has the best momentum canceling moves.

Bowser is the heaviest in terms of mass: Ignoring recoveries and momentum canceling, he needs the highest % to be KO'd of the side of a screen.

But since he is rather floaty (meaning he doesn't fall down that fast), he is killed earlier off the top than Dedede, DK and Snake.

edit: Back on topic, I think Sonic is a tiny bit better than Bowser but not really good enough to stay out of low tier.

 

[B!squick]

I have to respectfully disagree on fall speed, Flayl.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=162546

 

[mars16]

Bowser compared to Sonic
_______

Sonic is the fastest dasher

Bowser the heaviest character
______________________-
I find Sonic to have more of a chance to win the match because he's faster overall

Bowser has power but he'sjust slow, and predictable

But he does have the fire breath and range

 

[B!squick]

And priority. And Fortress OoS. And don't count too much on Bowser being predictable. He does attack faster than Captain Falcon.

 

[Flayl]

I have to respectfully disagree on fall speed, Flayl.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=162546

It's not a matter of disagreeing or not. Snake, Dedede and DK live longer "vertically". It's something you can test if you want to.

I thnk the statistic that is put in the thread you linked is the falling acceleration rather than falling speed. Take a look at the terminal velocities in this link:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=244329

Thos values are taken directly form the game files, not measured.

 

[B!squick]

You're top fall speed when trying to decelerate doesn't really matter though, does it?

 

[A2ZOMG]

This thread is silly, and most of you clearly don't know what you're talking about.

But Sonic is clearly better than Bowser. I'd say slightly, but it's pretty obvious why.

Sonic has better pokes, better punish/defensive options, doesn't get autogimped by gimp moves with good hitboxes, and a safe KO move (B-air, which is very hard to land, but still, safe on block).

Bowser has a very predictable approach, bad grabs (his command grab really is not that good if you know how to react to it, and his other grabs aren't very good in terms of speed and range), pretty much no safe way to score a kill, and possibly one of the worst recoveries in the game. Bowser's horrible recovery alone worsens his matchups by at least 10 points, especially if his opponent has a move that is very good at gimping. Bowser literally is helpless offstage, lacking any safe priority or good mobility mixup in his recovery and if his opponent does not suck, he WILL take a hit when returning. Characters like Metaknight, Mario, and even Ganondorf have no trouble gimping this character at all, especially if the stage is not battlefield.

Sonic's only really noteable disadvantage compared to Bowser is lacking kill moves that hit before reaction time (and of course not having any really good setups to compensate for that problem), which makes him only *slightly* better, but pointed out earlier, Bowser has no safe kill move or strategy, and he loses VERY significantly in terms of consistent damage dealing. Well actually, if his Up-B out of shield is FRESH, and if his opponent makes a spacing mistake, then that is a pseudo safe KO option, but his Up-B should never be fresh unless he died.

Bowser's Klaw is an overrated tool and I will devote a paragraph to explaining why. The grounded version is mediocre for the most part. The hitbox really isn't very useful, basically being slower and worse than the Jab, and very punishable on whiff. Jab canceling or grab releasing into it helps a little though. The aerial version is the one most Bowser players like using. People seem to forget that it is MUCH SLOWER than the grounded version. Startup is about 17 frames, which is easily anti-aired if you know what you are doing. It's not a bad move since it can make someone think twice about shieldcamping and spotdodging, but in high level play, it really doesn't come close to being that great of a staple move.

Bowser is also crippled a lot by projectile camping due to his large frame and longer than average landing lag, while Sonic is much less hindered in comparison. Bowser also has problems getting **** "comboed", having a hard time getting back to the ground, Firebreath and D-smash also become much less useful when the opponent SDIs.

 

[Espy Rose]

Bowser is better than Sonic.

Only by a little bit. lol.

 

[Hobobloke]

This thread is silly, and most of you clearly don't know what you're talking about.

But Sonic is clearly better than Bowser. I'd say slightly, but it's pretty obvious why.

Sonic has better pokes, better punish/defensive options, doesn't get autogimped by gimp moves with good hitboxes, and a safe KO move (B-air, which is very hard to land, but still, safe on block).

Bowser has a very predictable approach, bad grabs (his command grab really is not that good if you know how to react to it, and his other grabs aren't very good in terms of speed and range), pretty much no safe way to score a kill, and possibly one of the worst recoveries in the game. Bowser's horrible recovery alone worsens his matchups by at least 10 points, especially if his opponent has a move that is very good at gimping. Bowser literally is helpless offstage, lacking any safe priority or good mobility mixup in his recovery and if his opponent does not suck, he WILL take a hit when returning. Characters like Metaknight, Mario, and even Ganondorf have no trouble gimping this character at all, especially if the stage is not battlefield.

Sonic's only really noteable disadvantage compared to Bowser is lacking kill moves that hit before reaction time (and of course not having any really good setups to compensate for that problem), which makes him only *slightly* better, but pointed out earlier, Bowser has no safe kill move or strategy, and he loses VERY significantly in terms of consistent damage dealing. Well actually, if his Up-B out of shield is FRESH, and if his opponent makes a spacing mistake, then that is a pseudo safe KO option, but his Up-B should never be fresh unless he died.

Bowser's Klaw is an overrated tool and I will devote a paragraph to explaining why. The grounded version is mediocre for the most part. The hitbox really isn't very useful, basically being slower and worse than the Jab, and very punishable on whiff. Jab canceling or grab releasing into it helps a little though. The aerial version is the one most Bowser players like using. People seem to forget that it is MUCH SLOWER than the grounded version. Startup is about 17 frames, which is easily anti-aired if you know what you are doing. It's not a bad move since it can make someone think twice about shieldcamping and spotdodging, but in high level play, it really doesn't come close to being that great of a staple move.

Bowser is also crippled a lot by projectile camping due to his large frame and longer than average landing lag, while Sonic is much less hindered in comparison. Bowser also has problems getting **** "comboed", having a hard time getting back to the ground, Firebreath and D-smash also become much less useful when the opponent SDIs.

Your silly.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Bowser is probably better.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Bowser is not better than Sonic. He pretty much can do nothing against any S/A tier that knows how to not get baited into airdodge->Up-B or Bowser's ****ty shieldgrab, and against someone who doesn't suck, he is almost guaranteed to either get gimped or incur like 60% worth of damage when he's forced to use his recovery, while Sonic actually has legitimate damage dealing strategies that are decently safe and viable in high level play and Sonic never gets gimped. A number of mid tiers also **** Bowser, while none of them really blatantly **** Sonic.

Bowser literally has almost nothing that he can do if you know how to anti-air his Klaw approach, which only takes skill and observation.

 

[infomon]

I actually agree that Sonic > Bowser

 

[JayBee]

At least right now in this metagame, Sonic is better than bowser. His natural size and linear recovery is a problem the way the game is played. especially if he gets behind, how does he get back if the person is intent on camping for 8 minutes? you can't exactly run away from sonic... plus even with sonic's problems with killing he doesn't really have issues manuvering and dealing damage, and his recovery compared to bowsers is a lot less gimpable. which is important to note, since a lot of this game will be played offstage and hin the air, where the hyped up abilities of Bowsers up B Oos doesn't mean as much. and like other people said side b in the air isn't some gaara like defense anyways. I also dont like how a character that can infinited by DDD can be considered better than sonic unless he has something really, really amazing that's consistantly being shown in high level play. Im not seeing it.

 

[A2ZOMG]

DDD infiniting Bowser isn't neccessarily Bowser's biggest problem, I should point out. Klaw Hopping alone does a good job of preventing Bowser from getting grabbed. The problem is that Bowser is terrible at everything else and this strategy is mad predictable.

 

[<π]

You mean like DK and Luigi?

bowsers recovery may be linear but it's hard to beat, and when you combine his weight as well, bowser will on average love much longer than sonic.

Bowser has plenty of viable approach options and pokes that make chasing characters down a definite possiblility, his range and attack speed make for greatness. He has arguably the best out of sheild option in the game in UpB. His grab which is another OOS is amazing for obvious reasons.

Klaw is a great move with great range and grab priority. Deals a whopping 18 damage and can also net suicide kills from pretty deep in the stage, a powerful way to end games at relatively low percents.

Bowser has his issues but I think the come more in the form of character specific match ups against characters like marth D3 MK etc who can play aggressively and pressure bowser without fear of upB much more so than an inability to approach, or poor recovery options.


I'm not trying to start a war but i feel like bowser is actually a better character over all.

 

[Espy Rose]

You mean like DK and Luigi?

bowsers recovery may be linear but it's hard to beat, and when you combine his weight as well, bowser will on average love much longer than sonic.

Bowser has plenty of viable approach options and pokes that make chasing characters down a definite possiblility, his range and attack speed make for greatness. He has arguably the best out of sheild option in the game in UpB. His grab which is another OOS is amazing for obvious reasons.

Klaw is a great move with great range and grab priority. Deals a whopping 18 damage and can also net suicide kills from pretty deep in the stage, a powerful way to end games at relatively low percents.

Bowser has his issues but I think the come more in the form of character specific match ups against characters like marth D3 MK etc who can play aggressively and pressure bowser without fear of upB much more so than an inability to approach, or poor recovery options.


I'm not trying to start a war but i feel like bowser is actually a better character over all.

Don't feel bad. Bowser beats Sonic.
Barely.

 

[A2ZOMG]

bowsers recovery may be linear but it's hard to beat, and when you combine his weight as well, bowser will on average love much longer than sonic.

Bowser's recovery is very easy to beat, what kind of BS are you giving me? His Up-B has no priority. If the stage is NOT battlefield, and especially if it is final destination, Bowser should NEVER be able to successfully recover if you have a good gimp tool, like Mario's Cape. Or if you can't gimp him, free 60% as long as you keep hitting him away from the stage. Landing onstage is not viable for him either due to landing lag leaving him open to be punished heavily. Actually one matchup for him does become unwinnable on BF. G&W is a completely unwinnable matchup for Bowser on Battlefield. D-tilt edgeguarding in addition to G&W's vastly superior zoning, pressure, and tools in general means Bowser actually has no options once he's offstage.

Bowser has plenty of viable approach options and pokes that make chasing characters down a definite possiblility, his range and attack speed make for greatness. He has arguably the best out of sheild option in the game in UpB. His grab which is another OOS is amazing for obvious reasons.

Bowser only has one viable approach, and that's betting on Klawhopping, which is insanely predictable. Everything else sucks and is not worth mentioning. F-tilt and F-air are significantly punishable on block or whiff. Jabs would be amazing except Bowser is huge and easily outzoned, which makes them unreliable and situational.

Klaw is a great move with great range and grab priority. Deals a whopping 18 damage and can also net suicide kills from pretty deep in the stage, a powerful way to end games at relatively low percents.

Klaw is not great. It is good, but not great. The grounded version sucks. The aerial version is decent, except it comes out in 17 frames, which you should be interrupting.

Bowser has his issues but I think the come more in the form of character specific match ups against characters like marth D3 MK etc who can play aggressively and pressure bowser without fear of upB much more so than an inability to approach, or poor recovery options.

Bowser has next to no good matchups, and he gets hardcore ***** by the S/A tiers, and several mid tiers also **** him.

I'm not trying to start a war but i feel like bowser is actually a better character over all.

Bowser is way too limited and unsafe to be the better character.

Bowser is in fact one of my secondaries keep in mind.

 

[Hobobloke]

Ok, I think Bowser and Sonic are pretty even, I personally feel bowser might have the edge but if so it'd be by a tiny amount. All i ask is you completely ignore anything AZZOMG says on the topic.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Instead of being stupid and ignorant, you can actually try to back your claims with real arguments.

I have logical backings that I highly doubt you have counters for. Try me. It's no fun when you give up a good discussion immediately.

 

[JayBee]

You mean like DK and Luigi?

bowsers recovery may be linear but it's hard to beat, and when you combine his weight as well, bowser will on average love much longer than sonic.

Bowser has plenty of viable approach options and pokes that make chasing characters down a definite possiblility, his range and attack speed make for greatness. He has arguably the best out of sheild option in the game in UpB. His grab which is another OOS is amazing for obvious reasons.

Klaw is a great move with great range and grab priority. Deals a whopping 18 damage and can also net suicide kills from pretty deep in the stage, a powerful way to end games at relatively low percents.

Bowser has his issues but I think the come more in the form of character specific match ups against characters like marth D3 MK etc who can play aggressively and pressure bowser without fear of upB much more so than an inability to approach, or poor recovery options.


I'm not trying to start a war but i feel like bowser is actually a better character over all.

question: is DDD's bair a good counter to Bowsers Klawhopping? i think so.

In anycase. Luigi does not have a linear recovery, he has three special moves that aid in his recovery, fireballs to aid him get back on the stage as well. and he can get to the ledge many times without the use of a second jump. This sounds similar to sonic as well in many ways, and a great recovery like that helps a lower ranked characters many times against higher damage outout high tiers characters. Bowser may be heavy, and that helps, but when you can get juggled consistantly by most characters off one mistake, and can get edgegaurded for more, it makes it hard for a character to mount an offence unless he has some ******** tool to balance those matchups. and i dont think Klaw, as cool as it is, is enough to alleviate that (besides it looks more like a defensive tool in most cases). yeah it does mad damage, but the fact that his defensive game at high levels almost revolves solely off of his side B and the actions right after that bothers me, because then it can be baited and punished more regularly than lets say, a side B with multiple attack options after, two escape options after, and a cancel before the attack is released.

Im not being baised here. I also feel that from the matches we all have seen, on the internet that against high tiers bowser has a more problematic chance overall. and we know why that's important to note. that and a stagnant metagame doesn't help either. Bowser's game is the same as it was 6 months ago, whereas almost every good sonic has played completely different from one another, making it even harder for players to quickly "learn the matchup" as they play more good Sonics compared to playing more good bowsers. We can even talk about how "easy" it is to beat sonic once you've learned the matchup, but how much longer does it take to understand that matchup compared to bowsers when most good bowsers are almost garenteed to play the same?

Also consider that the best characters in the game right now are ones that either 1: having superior mobility 2: have an ability to severly limit the mobility of the opponent or 3: have the ability to easily protect themselves even while mounting an offense. I dont think Bowser has anyof these on a high ranking level, while sonic, though not a great character overall, has an S ranked Recovery and very high level mobility.

Am I wrong here? am i missing something. It seems that Sonic is better in todays game honestly.

 

[A2ZOMG]

^Everything stated here is 100% correct.

 

[Espy Rose]

It seems that Sonic is better in todays game honestly.

That's because Sonic is more tourney-viable than Bowser.
Still loses to Bowser (or breaks even. He does NOT beat Bowser).

 

[JayBee]

isn't that the question? this isn't the Sonic matchup thread right? i thought we were takign about viability comparisons in copetative brawl. the matchup between the two doesn't mean too much, since Sonic isn't metaknight or snake or wario...

yeah, the matchup with D3 is really bad apparently (DDD matchup thread) even if the bowser is good. the reasons are obvious.

 

[A2ZOMG]

That's because Sonic is more tourney-viable than Bowser.
Still loses to Bowser (or breaks even. He does NOT beat Bowser).

You're silly, you don't even know what your topic is about.

So what if Sonic loses to Bowser? (which is kinda sketchy if you ask me since Sonic clearly has better stage options) He still has over a dozen other matchups that he does way better in. Thus in response to the topic title, he is better than Bowser.

 

[<π]

isn't that the question? this isn't the Sonic matchup thread right? i thought we were takign about viability comparisons in copetative brawl. the matchup between the two doesn't mean too much, since Sonic isn't metaknight or snake or wario...

yeah, the matchup with D3 is really bad apparently (DDD matchup thread) even if the bowser is good. the reasons are obvious.

Then why is bowsers worst match up important? I brought up Luigi and DK in response to A2ZOMG's post just before it "I don't see how a character that can be infinited by D3 is better than sonic." Bowser match up with D3 has a small impact on his match ups over all, and that is what defines how good or bad a character is.

I wasn't trying to compare bowser to luigi or DK

Bowser's recovery is very easy to beat, what kind of BS are you giving me? His Up-B has no priority. If the stage is NOT battlefield, and especially if it is final destination, Bowser should NEVER be able to successfully recover if you have a good gimp tool, like Mario's Cape. Or if you can't gimp him, free 60% as long as you keep hitting him away from the stage. Landing onstage is not viable for him either due to landing lag leaving him open to be punished heavily.

False, bowser is invincible on start up of UpB.
His upB has great horizontal speed which lets him get back to the stage quickly.
His upB has a big sweet spot that can easily counter GaW's Dowtilt :/ don't even know where you got that from.
he still has his klaw which even off stage makes approaching him in the air from the front a problem for a lot of the cast.
Which has ridiculous range and low start up again compared to most of the cast.
Assuming the bowser is smart and he still has his second jump gimping him off stage is a task for most of the cast.Watch any bowser and see how many times they get gimped off stage.
And this is all assuming the bowser isn't DIing correctly and recovering high from most of the cast high angled kill moves.

Landing on stage with your upB will get you punished... like most of the cast thats true. but because of bowsers weight it rarely ends in death, but more likely a grab dash attack or running usmash.

Actually one matchup for him does become unwinnable on BF. G&W is a completely unwinnable matchup for Bowser on Battlefield. D-tilt edgeguarding in addition to G&W's vastly superior zoning, pressure, and tools in general means Bowser actually has no options once he's offstage.

that is not an unwinnable match up by any means.
ftilt out ranges everything GaW can do on the ground. upB wrecks any poorly spaced aerials and those can happen a lot because of dash in sheild and situations where GaW is recovering high and left with no other choice but to land on bowser.
Do reseach watch bowser versus GaW if you don't trust my word...

Bowser only has one viable approach, and that's betting on Klawhopping, which is insanely predictable. Everything else sucks and is not worth mentioning. F-tilt and F-air are significantly punishable on block or whiff. Jabs would be amazing except Bowser is huge and easily outzoned, which makes them unreliable and situational.

Mmm... I disagree again. ftilit and fair are not significantly punishable on wiff, definitely not on block if spaced properly, short hop klaw (you end with normal landing lag), dash claw, dash upB, dash grab, dash sheild is really powerful because you can upB out of sheild anything they try and meet you with on reaction as well as sheild grab.
Personally I don't think claw hopping is a viable approach because as you mentioned its predictable and only works well against people who try and meet you in the air.
But I also feel that jab is a really good move, fast at five frames or so with very good range, it is actually safe on sheild versus a lot of the cast and sudo combos into grabs and even tilts if you do connect. jab is a very solild poking tool.

Klaw is not great. It is good, but not great. The grounded version sucks. The aerial version is decent, except it comes out in 17 frames, which you should be interrupting.

I think klaw may in fact be a little over hyped but 17 frames into going to be enough to just say "meh, I'll inturupt it." aerial klaws best atributes are it's range which makes inturuting very hard for most of the cast, the fact that it will give you grab armor if you are hit while that hit box is out, again in most cases, and the fact that it has vitually no landing lag which will allow you to punish spot dodges and rolls and teh like a lot of the time.
the grounded version is very very fast, thats why it is good, I think its around five frames? that would put it at fasted grab move in the game, and his fastest ground option aside from jab, it can also be used directly out of your run which makes for a good 18 damage punisher out of a run something most of the cast can't do that quickly. gorunded klaw definitely has a place in bowsers moveset.

Bowser has next to no good matchups, and he gets hardcore ***** by the S/A tiers, and several mid tiers also **** him.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=211975

According to the bowser boards no one really ***** him spare D3 and ICs, diddy to an extent. He goes about even or slight disadvantage with most of the cast but He doesn't really have any favorable match ups.
Random fact: If you klaw snake out of his upB you get a free kill.

Honestly I think they are being a little modest. but for the most part bowser's ability to survive and punish people with poor or even average approach options.

Bowser is way too limited and unsafe to be the better character.

Limited sure, but unsafe? never. bowser is kind of the definition of safety with the best out of sheild options in the game and an amazing sheild there are very few situations bower can't react to in a safe fashion.
And good pokes that are safe if you know their ranges. on everyone in the game.

Bowser is in fact one of my secondaries keep in mind.[/quote]
Bowser is one of my mains. :/

I'm not trying to make bowser out to be some god, that obviously isn't the case but he is definitely a beast in his own right. He has great tools espeacially defensively that most of the cast just can't answer head on.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Unsafe? lol Bowser's like the Judo character. C:

 

[A2ZOMG]

False, bowser is invincible on start up of UpB.

The invincibility is only for a very few frames, which is not enough to make this move safe at all.

His upB has great horizontal speed which lets him get back to the stage quickly.

it has ****ty horizontal speed. Great horizontal speed is Jigglypuff's NeutralB or Falco's SideB. Bowser's Up-B does not have great horizontal speed.

His upB has a big sweet spot that can easily counter GaW's Dowtilt :/ don't even know where you got that from.

Now you're just blatantly wrong. Bowser on BF cannot do anything to recover past G&W's platform spaced D-tilt except ledgeroll, which will be punished by a kill move.

he still has his klaw which even off stage makes approaching him in the air from the front a problem for a lot of the cast.

Klaw is extremely unsafe and easy to outspace.

Assuming the bowser is smart and he still has his second jump gimping him off stage is a task for most of the cast.Watch any bowser and see how many times they get gimped off stage.

Against bad players right?

And this is all assuming the bowser isn't DIing correctly and recovering high from most of the cast high angled kill moves.

And he gets ***** in the *** if his opponent has a gimp tool with a good hitbox. Ganondorf has no trouble gimping this character at all with reverse U-airs or D-airs. Watch good Ganons play against Bowser.

By the way, just using video or personal experience is not the best way to argue at all.

Landing on stage with your upB will get you punished... like most of the cast thats true. but because of bowsers weight it rarely ends in death, but more likely a grab dash attack or running usmash.

It's most true for Bowser who is extremely laggy and predictable.

that is not an unwinnable match up by any means.
ftilt out ranges everything GaW can do on the ground. upB wrecks any poorly spaced aerials and those can happen a lot because of dash in sheild and situations where GaW is recovering high and left with no other choice but to land on bowser.
Do reseach watch bowser versus GaW if you don't trust my word...

Video analysis is not a substitute for logical reasoning. Virtually no G&W plays this matchup correctly I should state. Up-B doesn't wreck well-spaced aerials, and G&W's superior mobility means dash shielding to punish high recoveries is very unreliable at best. F-tilt gets beaten by G&W's superior pressure and zoning game. G&W's B-air is more disjointed and can pressure Bowser with near impunity properly spaced. Fullhop F-airs are extremely gay for Bowser to deal with. On BF D-tilt and D-smash hit Bowser through the platforms, ****** Bowser on his best stage.

Mmm... I disagree again. ftilit and fair are not significantly punishable on wiff, definitely not on block if spaced properly

Mario can reverse F-smash out of shield to punish F-tilt. That is a very unsafe move on block or whiff.

short hop klaw (you end with normal landing lag), dash claw, dash upB, dash grab, dash sheild is really powerful because you can upB out of sheild anything they try and meet you with on reaction as well as sheild grab.

Klaw sucks as an approach. The air version is anti-airable on reaction. The ground version has a bad and situational hitbox and is unsafe on whiff. Bowser's grabs in general suck. Dash shield still loses to good vertical spacing and camping.

But I also feel that jab is a really good move, fast at five frames or so with very good range, it is actually safe on sheild versus a lot of the cast and sudo combos into grabs and even tilts if you do connect. jab is a very solild poking tool.

True. Jab is Bowser's best move, but the problem is it does not make up for Bowser's other weaknesses to better poke games.

the grounded version is very very fast, thats why it is good, I think its around five frames? that would put it at fasted grab move in the game, and his fastest ground option aside from jab, it can also be used directly out of your run which makes for a good 18 damage punisher out of a run something most of the cast can't do that quickly. gorunded klaw definitely has a place in bowsers moveset.

Dash punishes are alright, but the hitbox and ending lag are bad.

Honestly I think they are being a little modest. but for the most part bowser's ability to survive and punish people with poor or even average approach options.

Bowser cannot punish average approach options reliably at all.

Limited sure, but unsafe? never. bowser is kind of the definition of safety with the best out of sheild options in the game and an amazing sheild there are very few situations bower can't react to in a safe fashion.

Bowser's OOS game is not that good. His Up-B can be outspaced so that he can't use it out of shield. His other stuff comes out slowly in general, and his huge frame makes him an easy target for safe poking. Vertical spacing is too easy against Bowser's huge frame, and he can't throw out anything safely (except Jab against grounded opponents).

I'm not trying to make bowser out to be some god, that obviously isn't the case but he is definitely a beast in his own right. He has great tools espeacially defensively that most of the cast just can't answer head on.

Bowser only has semi-decent defensive tools and he's outright terrible at everything else. He has very very few competitive advantages.