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Is Sonic Mid-tier material? Is he better than Bowser again? (Read the OP)
- Thread starter Chis
- Start date
Jim Morrison
Smash Authority
TL;DR of the last pages;
No, Sonic isn't better than Fox.
No, Sonic isn't better than Fox.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
I would ahve to say, unless those 3-4 matchups Fox has were to improve, it is very well possible that he is overall better.
Simply because Fox is hurt badly if he has 3-4 matchups where he is hard countered.
So...have those matchups improved?
Simply because Fox is hurt badly if he has 3-4 matchups where he is hard countered.
So...have those matchups improved?
Exceladon City
Smash Hero
Not really. I think the GW match-up is easier than it was originally penned IMO. Pika is still "Why would you even consider it?" bad. IC's will always be "Get Grabbed, Get *****" so that match-up is basically how safely you can split up Nana, from Popo without dying. Sheik still sucks balls to fight. MK is stage dependant IMO. Luigi isn't hard at all and ZSS is a joke.
Terios the Hedgehog
Smash Hero
I remember... Shining..being BEAST at seperating the climbers in Melee. I haven't done that matchup in Brawl though. Still good?
Exceladon City
Smash Hero
I've tried it before. It works against IC's not named Lain, Meep, Atomsk and other competent players. I could try it against Lain. It'll be a 50 second match I'm sure. But whatever it's worth a shot.
chaoechidna
Smash Apprentice
Sigh.. every match with an ice climbers is a 50 second match as soon as they grab you..
Chis
Finally a legend
Bumpage, even though this place is kind of dead these days lol
Trent
Smash Champion
Fox h8s tru3 comb0s?!
chaoechidna
Smash Apprentice
Ok, i've been playing as fox a lot lately, and i gotta say, he really has a much easier time killing than sonic does.. Those combos really work well. Dair to Usmash or Dsmash is almost an instant kill at the right percents, and his speed really works well for him. The fact that he can hit then chase and hit over and over again makes him pronounced among the rest of the cast. People can argue over the better character, sonic or fox, and the results keep showing that sonics are owning more than foxes are. I think it's due to the sonic fanbase as opposed to him being a better character. So i think this is how it goes: Fox is the better character, but has a few really, really bad matchups. But outside of these matchups, he wins more easily than sonic does against the rest of the cast. Sonic is not an easy character to play as, and he has a harder time with matchups than does fox, due only to the fact that fox has some really good kill moves and can combo into them pretty easily. Sonic is much better with the few matchups that kill fox (sheik, pika, ZSS) and he lives for a significantly longer time than fox does, due to fox's lighter weight. Sigh.. this is so hard.. People on these glorious sonic boards maintain that Sonic is not a good character, and brawl fox has been pretty nerfed from melee fox.. But it's always been easier for me to win using fox. Sonic is just too hard to land kills with, and it's not cause i'm better with fox than sonic (i think). It's just easier to win with fox. Sonic's got the mindgames and the fanbase that helps him win (kudos to you all), but fox was built as a better character in this game.
Chis
Finally a legend
The question is why.
ShadoFiend
Smash Lord
Because Sonic was made for one fighting game and only one.
Sonic Battle. lol.
Fox may be the better character on paper but when it comes to a real match he just seems to get ****ed by so much. With Sonic you have alot of options (they may not be the best options but they are options)
Fox is one of those characters where you know what he is going to do. So you look out for those few moves the entire match or when you are in killing range. He does have reliable kills. And his dair is a perfect set up. But don't you ever wonder why Fox mains arent placing that high with the exception of a few. He just gets ****ed too easily. It takes a click over to Pikachu, Zss, whatever to just CP the character. I believe he is the better character in the game but from those horrible match ups he is just isnt as viable alone.
To my Knowledge, Sonic doesnt have any impossible match ups. While Fox has like..3
Sonic Battle. lol.
Fox may be the better character on paper but when it comes to a real match he just seems to get ****ed by so much. With Sonic you have alot of options (they may not be the best options but they are options)
Fox is one of those characters where you know what he is going to do. So you look out for those few moves the entire match or when you are in killing range. He does have reliable kills. And his dair is a perfect set up. But don't you ever wonder why Fox mains arent placing that high with the exception of a few. He just gets ****ed too easily. It takes a click over to Pikachu, Zss, whatever to just CP the character. I believe he is the better character in the game but from those horrible match ups he is just isnt as viable alone.
To my Knowledge, Sonic doesnt have any impossible match ups. While Fox has like..3
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
for the record, Ive beaten ZSS players in tourney with fox. please dont talk about her when you bring up impossible matchups. I swear fox mains arent kidding when they say its not that bad.
But then again, I beat prawn (New England IC) with fox in a money match too.
But then again, I beat prawn (New England IC) with fox in a money match too.
ShadoFiend
Smash Lord
KID i was seriously about to put ZSS as maybe. Because you really dont see much Foxs getting hit by Dsmash. But then again it wouldnt be hard to land if off a recovery. Most likely. I dunno. I just dont see it landing that easy but it doesnt change the fact that Fox as some **** match ups.
Fenrir VII
Smash Master
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2005
- Messages
- 3,506
If Fox has to recover, he is likely too high in % for the chain to start.
Not to mention that Fox shouldn't be getting hit by dsmash with his recovery...
Fox has bad matchups, but "impossible" is a bit inflated. They are rough, sure... but all doable.
ShadoFiend
Smash Lord
I have yet to see a fox beat a high ranked Sheik or Pikachu in any set. Being an all fox mainer is harder than being an all Sonic one. imho
Anyone can have a solid CP for fox. Like i said. On paper fox is better. But when it comes to tournies why do you think Foxs arent placing as high as most sonics?
Anyone can have a solid CP for fox. Like i said. On paper fox is better. But when it comes to tournies why do you think Foxs arent placing as high as most sonics?
The BlackChrimson
Smash Apprentice
Fox is good, but not that good, sad to say. In Melee, he had invincibility during the shine, thus making it the absolute. Taking that away, Fox is rather very vulnerable. He's still fun to use, of course, but I find more fun fighting against him with Sonic. Sonic does stand a high chance against Fox, mainly if they attempt to 'shine' because they are just as wide open if Sonic is in mid-attack, like a Spin Dash.
By the way, I have some saved footage on my Wii memory of using Sonic's "Perfect Combo" on falco. Fox and Falco weigh about the same, so various assaults like that are affective against them. They also lack a certain tech-skill, or recovery, and that's a cruical must-have, if I do say so myself. Using that while Fox, Falco, or anyone of the sort are recovering (Could simply begin this by tossing them off at about 22-40% damage; preferably using the down throw), simply persue after them in a mid-air battle, all they while trying to Stage Spike them! XD
trust me, against the Star Fox bregade, and other characters/players that possible hang-out under the ledge makes this the prime objective, and is, in my experiance, the most effective.
"Shi-sh-shaa"...Dail Gribble; King of the Hill.
By the way, I have some saved footage on my Wii memory of using Sonic's "Perfect Combo" on falco. Fox and Falco weigh about the same, so various assaults like that are affective against them. They also lack a certain tech-skill, or recovery, and that's a cruical must-have, if I do say so myself. Using that while Fox, Falco, or anyone of the sort are recovering (Could simply begin this by tossing them off at about 22-40% damage; preferably using the down throw), simply persue after them in a mid-air battle, all they while trying to Stage Spike them! XD
trust me, against the Star Fox bregade, and other characters/players that possible hang-out under the ledge makes this the prime objective, and is, in my experiance, the most effective.
"Shi-sh-shaa"...Dail Gribble; King of the Hill.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
ummmm... what?
ShadoFiend
Smash Lord
Did i miss something here?
Boxob.
Smash Lord
Who care? really when i plau fox i just make bait them i into the spindash in the air.
It's pretty simple :/
It's pretty simple :/
The BlackChrimson
Smash Apprentice
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.
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...Exactly. Do I need to reword that entire section I worte? Because I think I could do that if no one got it...
Fox is a fun character to play as in Brawl because he isn't stif, and his combos are easy to set up.
His faults are that he lacks key recovery techniques and no longer has invincibility and priority while 'shining'.
Using Sonic's fast paced movement proporly, especially the Spin Dash, can rip through an unsuspecting Fox. Even a skilled Brawl Fox could be destroyed if they're exploited and baiten at the right times. Reason why Fox is susceptable to Sonic's onsloughts is the fact that Fox has a fast dropping rate, meaning he can be easily set up of other attacks after the first set. If a Fox is between 20-44% Damage (at the very least), you could simply down throw his from the ledge of the stage and persue with air attacks and Homing Attack. Reason for Homing Attack is to avoind using your double jump too soon; you'll need it. They main goal is to keep Fox away from the stage and ledge jack him, or better yet, Stage Spike him.
This works on Falco too, but Falco is easier to pull this on because his special recovery is less that Fox's, so he can easily be Ledge jacked.
For that to work, and like most gimps, just simply begin with a Down Throw off the ledge of the stage and follow after them with an air attack to take away their Double Jump, then simply Lesge steal. It works almost guaranteed to work on an Ike evey time, but the same set up is a lethal way to claim a kill if it is proporly accomplished.
...Let me guess, I still threw everyone, haven't I?...
If so, then sorry. I'd show some footage for visual examples, but I can't get my Wii online to upload my videos on Youtube.
.
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...Exactly. Do I need to reword that entire section I worte? Because I think I could do that if no one got it...
Fox is a fun character to play as in Brawl because he isn't stif, and his combos are easy to set up.
His faults are that he lacks key recovery techniques and no longer has invincibility and priority while 'shining'.
Using Sonic's fast paced movement proporly, especially the Spin Dash, can rip through an unsuspecting Fox. Even a skilled Brawl Fox could be destroyed if they're exploited and baiten at the right times. Reason why Fox is susceptable to Sonic's onsloughts is the fact that Fox has a fast dropping rate, meaning he can be easily set up of other attacks after the first set. If a Fox is between 20-44% Damage (at the very least), you could simply down throw his from the ledge of the stage and persue with air attacks and Homing Attack. Reason for Homing Attack is to avoind using your double jump too soon; you'll need it. They main goal is to keep Fox away from the stage and ledge jack him, or better yet, Stage Spike him.
This works on Falco too, but Falco is easier to pull this on because his special recovery is less that Fox's, so he can easily be Ledge jacked.
For that to work, and like most gimps, just simply begin with a Down Throw off the ledge of the stage and follow after them with an air attack to take away their Double Jump, then simply Lesge steal. It works almost guaranteed to work on an Ike evey time, but the same set up is a lethal way to claim a kill if it is proporly accomplished.
...Let me guess, I still threw everyone, haven't I?...
If so, then sorry. I'd show some footage for visual examples, but I can't get my Wii online to upload my videos on Youtube.
chaoechidna
Smash Apprentice
TBChrimson, I don't think this thread is about whether fox is better than sonic, or vice versa.. It's about whether sonic is a better character OVERALL in this game. Meaning against the entire cast, and how his moves match up against the cast, rather than just fox. Don't worry, i made the same mistake when i first joined sonic board discussions..
I still agree with what i said earlier, fox has a few really bad matchups and that may be why he isn't as high as sonic in tourney wins, but I really believe he was made to be the better character, overall. Even if it's not by much, i still think he's better. Both characters aren't easy to win with though. And from what we've seen in tourneys, the sonic players themselves are doing incredible things with sonic. So i dunno, maybe sonic really is better.. I think sonics can beat foxs when it comes to that matchup, but fox has an easier time with MOST of the rest of the cast than sonic does, making him the better character. For those few CPs, well, that just sucks for fox..
I still agree with what i said earlier, fox has a few really bad matchups and that may be why he isn't as high as sonic in tourney wins, but I really believe he was made to be the better character, overall. Even if it's not by much, i still think he's better. Both characters aren't easy to win with though. And from what we've seen in tourneys, the sonic players themselves are doing incredible things with sonic. So i dunno, maybe sonic really is better.. I think sonics can beat foxs when it comes to that matchup, but fox has an easier time with MOST of the rest of the cast than sonic does, making him the better character. For those few CPs, well, that just sucks for fox..
Lightning93
Smash Champion
Well... let's face it, the presence of Pika mains and Shiek mains aren't that common at your normal tournament. It is region dependent, and if we're talking about tournaments we should be expecting more of a high-tier presence right? Fox goes even, or does rather well against most high-tiers, and for that reason you should at least see him have better placings than what he does at the moment.
The truth is, as has been argued before, Fox as a character does not have the really good reputation/players he needs. I mean, I have yet to hear of a well-known and respected Fox player lose it all because someone picked Pika or Shiek. Two factors play into this, the lack of Pika and Shiek players, and the lack of well-known Fox players. Let's remember Samboner and his recent performance at HOBO 20. I mean, it's possible that someone could have counter-picked a so-called "impossible" matchup against him, but is it probable? Again, he may have just picked Luigi, but honestly due to realistic probabilities, I would say Fox has more potential tournament-wise...
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
the few fox mains i know of dont really live or play in tourney against any really well known sheiks or pikas, yet they still cant get tourney results.
Lightning93
Smash Champion
See? Sounds like a player-based problem to me...
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
just sounds to me like the character just isnt good enough...
Lightning93
Smash Champion
Possibly, but I hope you don't base this off of the performance of a few rather unknown Fox mains.
Rookie, Zeton, and Samboner, a.k.a the good Fox mains have all managed to place in the top 5 if not top 3. Some more than on one account. Samboner doesn't even have tourney experience and managed to place 3rd while defeating some of the most respected Texas players, so I find it hard to believe that Fox is an incapable character...
Browny
Smash Hater
again, you have to consider none of the people (who placed high) at that tourney actively CP'd fox with one of those matchups.
Lightning93
Smash Champion
^ That's my point. If it doesn't happen at HOBO 20, what's the probability of it happening elsewhere? And honestly, Shiek and Pika are not a big problem if the player doesn't main/use them correctly and efficiently. For Fox to be put in these bad matchup situations, both players have to be playing at high-level. That can be only accomplished imo if the opposing player mains or uses Shiek and Pika very frequently, which in itself isn't too common at tournaments. Pika's grab range isn't too excellent, and Shiek has to be able to approach correctly to land a Ftilt lock if she doesn't get killed first. Again, this is no problem for a Pika or Shiek MAIN, but against a Fox, especially one with experience, it may be more difficult than most people acknowledge.
Again, my argument is still about probability, I'm not saying it's impossible, but I'm really trying to be realistic here... or at least more realistic-thinking based.
Again, my argument is still about probability, I'm not saying it's impossible, but I'm really trying to be realistic here... or at least more realistic-thinking based.
Fenrir VII
Smash Master
- Joined
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Yeah, it's not as if a CP of Pika or Sheik is an instant win for anybody.
In order for that matchups to be bad, the opposing player has to have some idea of what to do.
I mean heck, Pika MAINS have trouble grabbing and CGing me... not to mention killing me post-grab. And this isn't really a testament of my skill or their lack of skill or anything, it happens across the board of players.
You really have to understand both the character and matchup, or else, it's not a threat to the Fox player. This is a common misconception. I've heard "Just pick Pika" in my matches before and laughed at the thought.
The matchups are bad...they aren't unwinnable by any means... and they aren't that common.
The tourney results thread doesn't show ANY of the higher Fox tourney placings there are. This is a situation which we really can't fix, but using that as a basis for argument is faulty.
In order for that matchups to be bad, the opposing player has to have some idea of what to do.
I mean heck, Pika MAINS have trouble grabbing and CGing me... not to mention killing me post-grab. And this isn't really a testament of my skill or their lack of skill or anything, it happens across the board of players.
You really have to understand both the character and matchup, or else, it's not a threat to the Fox player. This is a common misconception. I've heard "Just pick Pika" in my matches before and laughed at the thought.
The matchups are bad...they aren't unwinnable by any means... and they aren't that common.
The tourney results thread doesn't show ANY of the higher Fox tourney placings there are. This is a situation which we really can't fix, but using that as a basis for argument is faulty.
Curaga
Smash Ace
Haha; this conversation is still going on?
Goofy.
Goofy.
Exceladon City
Smash Hero
I'm a former Fox main, and I have to say I've had a much easier time playing in tournaments with Sonic than with Fox. So many match-ups that I couldn't deal with as Fox have become easier to play 10 fold with Sonic. MK, Ice Climbers, Snake, Diddy Kong, etc. they have all given me hell with Fox and granted Diddy, Snake and ICs are still a pain, I have a less stressful time fighting them. Plus, I play in the Midwest and we have an Anti-Fox zone here anyway. You name the counter and we'll supply it.
Lightning93
Smash Champion
Excel... we all know your choice to main Sonic was a personal thing. You had personal problems maining Fox, which I guess also included regional counter-pick players. Half of the matchups you said were giving you problems, Snake, Diddy, MK, are actually not bad for Fox at all and are considered around 50:50. If you're saying Sonic was a better character for YOU, that's fine, just make sure not to make general statements with such player-specific evidence.
In other words, cool story bro.
In other words, cool story bro.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
i actually use fox to counter snake.
prawn, it was at memphis's tourney ove the summer. granted we never finished it, but i was winning, and yea, ill mm you again. im running a tourney in 2 weeks.
srs question. since when do rookie and zeton top 5 in tourneys?
prawn, it was at memphis's tourney ove the summer. granted we never finished it, but i was winning, and yea, ill mm you again. im running a tourney in 2 weeks.
srs question. since when do rookie and zeton top 5 in tourneys?
Fenrir VII
Smash Master
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718_ROOKI3
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4 out of 16 at Epic Scene Tourney 3.0 on ??/??
9 out of 42 at Perfect Tournament #1 on ??/??
13 out of 47 at S3 VI on ??/??
7 out of 24 at Late Night Smash Bash I on ??/??
1 out of 26 at Random Tourney on 6/12/09.
3rd of 20 at Trc corkscrew In Sc
Fenrir VII
9 out of 43 at November Brawl Gigabits 11/29/08.
5 out of 57 at September Brawl Gigabits ??/??
13th out of 56 at Gigabits: A June Brawl on 6/20/09.
9th out of 49 at Gigabits - back 2 school brawl on ??/??/??.
monkeyx4
GA.
3rd out of 32 at "The 1337" ??/??.
Duo55
NC.
Chu Dat Biweekly 17th out of 40 (10/10/08)
Chu Dat Special Haunted Halloween Biweekly Results 17th out of 51 (11/1/08)
C3 Ecrc Results 17th out of 97 11/22/08.
33rd out of 72 at Critical Hit 4.5 12/13/08.
1st our of 23 at PLUR Presents: L.U.R. on 1/10/08.
2nd out of 21 at P.L.U.R. presents: Re-emergence on 5/2/09.
1st out of ?? at NSCU Smash Stacks Bi-weeklies on 10/14.
Moogle
Tuscaloosa, AL
1st out of 35 at TCS IV on 02/09/09.
Johrune
Conway, Arkansas
5th of 30 at Brawlroom Blitz on 1/30/09
FreakingMethodiC
5th of 14 in Singles at I-CON.
NightShadow6
5th out of 30 at Battle for WNY5 on 1/01/09.
Samboner
3rd out of 33 at HOBO 20 on 11/07/09.
Zeton
Hutchinson, KS
25 out of 63 at MWCC 1/16/09.
17th out of 87 at NO KOAST WITCHITA KS on 2/21/09.
7th out of 49 at MWC: West Kahoka Me Your Moves.
1st out of 52 at TCC Metro SSBB Tournament Tusla on 6/6/09.
2nd out of 33 at Gigabrawl Lawrence Kansas on 7/25/09.
9th out of 65 at Phase 2 Tournament Dallas Texas on 10/17/09.
*PALADIN*
1st out of 13 at somthing to do/ Louisville, Kentucky on 03/07/09.
4th out of 30 at Somthing To Do on 4/04/09.
Rudementry
4th out of 37 at Prince Bistro Tournament on ??/??.
33rd out of 140 World Hobo (Whobo) Singles 04/11/09.
Tak
AU.
7th out of 24 at Ranbats 10/19/08.
5th out of 32 at Ranbats 09/21/08.
5th out 52 at Ranbats 08/17/08.
X
Victoria, Melbourne East, AU.
2nd out of 24 at Ranbats 10/19/08.
Ex-Post Facto
5th out of 35 at Prince Bistro Tournament on 03/07/09
CaptainMetaFox
4th of 22 at StreetGeekLP 9.03 on 3/13/09.
5th of 25 at StreetGeekLP 9.04 on 4/17/09.
Desert Eagle
2nd of 22 entrants at StreetGeekLP 9.03 on 13/03/09.
1st of 25 entrants at StreetGeekLP 9.04 on 17/04/09.
3rd of 22 entrants at StreetGeekLP 9.06 on 13/06/09.
t.o joe
17th out 70+ Only In Niagra 2 ?/??.
13th out of 72 - Let's Brawl Toronto 11/22/08.
1st out of 10 at Pro Gaming League Toronto on 2/7/08.
5th out of 26 at Pownz March to Brawl 03/14/09.
2nd out of 64 at Anime North on 5/22/09.
4th out of ?? at Duys Biweekly 5/24/09.
A6M Zero
Port Alberni BC
1st out of 12 at UVic Bi-Weeklies on 12/13/08.
1st out of 13 at UVic Biweeklies on ??/??/??
FzeroX
17 out of51 singles on 8/26 at Vegas Weekly 15
17 out of 59 singles on 9/02 at Vegas Weekly 16
13 out of 61 singles on 9/30 at Vegas Weekly 20
25 out of 51 singles on 10/06 at Vegas Weekly 21
9 out of 58 singles on 10/13 at Vegas Weekly 22
9 out of 55 singles on 10/20 at Vegas Weekly 23
13 out of 47 singles on 10/27 at Vegas Weekly 24
7 out of 64 singles on 11/03 at Vegas Weekly 25
5 out of 53 singles on 11/17 at Vegas Weekly 26
5 out of 47 singles on 3/23 at Vegas Weekly 42
5 out of 59 singles on 3/30 at Vegas Weekly 43
3 out of 28 singles on 4/5 at Top Deck Weekly 3
5 out of 22 singles on 4/12 at Top Deck Weekly 4
3 out of 54 singles on 4/13 at Vegas Weekly 45
3 out of 28 singles on 4/19 at Top Deck Weekly 5
4 out of 46 singles on 4/20 at Vegas Weekly 46
4 out of 32 singles on 4/26 at Top Deck Weekly 6
4 out of 48 singles on 4/27 at Vegas Weekly 47
I never understood why FzeroX didn't get more respect... those placings are pretty impressive...
Exceladon City
Smash Hero
Because he was a douche, kinda like A6M.
Lightning93
Smash Champion
^ LOL. That would do it.
But even so, Fenrir, are any of those results up in the official tourney-result directory?
But even so, Fenrir, are any of those results up in the official tourney-result directory?
Fenrir VII
Smash Master
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2005
- Messages
- 3,506
I'm not sure which are up, but I am sure that a large number of them are not. I don't really have the ability to go looking through countless threads to try to update that, but at least there is SOME record of Foxes doing well, eh?
And I never thought FzeroX was that bad... he did really well, and was a bit arrogant, but actually had good ideas...