Is Sonic Mid-tier material? Is he better than Bowser again? (Read the OP)

[da K.I.D.]

WOW. fox has a lot of tournament placings. but this is what you get when you take all the tourneys that happened since the current tier list came out. june 09

718_ROOKI3
Brooklyn, NY.
13th out of 69 at No Maps on 08/08/09.
9th out of 55 at Gauntlet Collabo Edition 9/5/09.
3rd out of 32 at DREXEL on 10/18/09.

Pgh-M@v-Pgh
State College, PA.
17th out of 35 at Test Your Might 5 on ??/??

Area 6
1 out of 26 at Random Tourney on 6/12/09.
3rd of 20 at Trc corkscrew In Sc

Fenrir VII
13th out of 56 at Gigabits: A June Brawl on 6/20/09.
9th out of 49 at Gigabits - back 2 school brawl on ??/??/??.

Duo55
NC.
1st out of ?? at NSCU Smash Stacks Bi-weeklies on 10/14.

NightShadow6
5th out of 30 at Battle for WNY5 on 1/01/09.
Leaving this in, cus i beat this kid with his own character, at that tourney.

Samboner
3rd out of 33 at HOBO 20 on 11/07/09.

Zeton
Hutchinson, KS
2nd out of 33 at Gigabrawl Lawrence Kansas on 7/25/09.
9th out of 65 at Phase 2 Tournament Dallas Texas on 10/17/09.


Desert Eagle
3rd of 22 entrants at StreetGeekLP 9.06 on 13/06/09.

And this is what you get when you give me what I asked for, top 5 placings.

718_ROOKI3
Brooklyn, NY.
3rd out of 32 at DREXEL on 10/18/09.

Area 6
1 out of 26 at Random Tourney on 6/12/09.
3rd of 20 at Trc corkscrew In Sc

Duo55
NC.
1st out of ?? at NSCU Smash Stacks Bi-weeklies on 10/14.

Samboner
3rd out of 33 at HOBO 20 on 11/07/09.

Zeton
Hutchinson, KS
2nd out of 33 at Gigabrawl Lawrence Kansas on 7/25/09.

Desert Eagle
3rd of 22 entrants at StreetGeekLP 9.06 on 13/06/09.

and half of those are scrub tourneys, I gather this based on lack of a entrance number, or statements such as "random tourney"

 

[ShadoFiend]

lol. Sawnik > Fawks.

Im done with the convo because its getting no where. I already said this like 20 **** times. Fox is good on paper but when it comes to tournies Sonic is prevailing unless that fox has a secondary or some ****.

 

[Fenrir VII]

WOW. fox has a lot of tournament placings. but this is what you get when you take all the tourneys that happened since the current tier list came out. june 09

Does ankoku's thread only count the results since the last tier list?


The number of entrats being "??" would just mean that the results thread organizer was not given a specific number. Most of the time, he'll ask for it specifically, but the people just post and not come back.

but at the same time "scrub tournies" is not a valid argument, because you know that there are quite a few Sonics placing at "scrub tournies", and counting the results in the rankings thread, simply because they have more than the required number of participants, and an entrance fee.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I hate this thread. Let's burn it.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Does ankoku's thread only count the results since the last tier list?


The number of entrats being "??" would just mean that the results thread organizer was not given a specific number. Most of the time, he'll ask for it specifically, but the people just post and not come back.

but at the same time "scrub tournies" is not a valid argument, because you know that there are quite a few Sonics placing at "scrub tournies", and counting the results in the rankings thread, simply because they have more than the required number of participants, and an entrance fee.

When it comes to the actual list that he keeps in the first post, he only counts results that happend in the last TWO MONTHS.

so if you want to take that road, Ill just say that in the context of ankokus list fox has only had one respectable placing and that was sam at HOBO. I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, but w/e.

 

[IceDX]

this shoulnt even be disscussed.....

 

[Camalange]

IceDX is back from the dead.


I think that's the only interesting thing that's happened, lol

 

[JMan8891]

And still is

How sad is that? Since i moved back to IL Sept 16th, Sonic boards has kinna been losing steam imo. I've become a lurker... :/

And im not liking that

 

[MalcolmM]

From what I have seen...Fox is a better character. I know the Sonics are gonna be mad, but its the truth.

Rookie doesnt enter many tournies, but when he does he places fairly well.

Fox has a gun that doesnt run out of bullets. He forces approaching and he can punish approaches quite well. He has an amazing kill move and great recovery. Matchup for matchup he is a better character. He has some problem matchups, but his problem matchups (quite fortunately) are ones involving some of the least used characters in the game. I know of more CF mains then Sheik and Pikachu. He does quite well vs Snake and beating metaknight is feasible. Diddy I am a bit unsure about, but he gets all up in D3. Fox's one problem would be marth and maybe Falco (unsure about this matchup...its just speculation) but Sonic doesnt do any better in those matchups. Sonic also loses badly to Snake (inb4nowedontbutwedonthaveanybigwinsagainstsnakesince08). How many Snakes are out here??? That is a problem matchup that determines tournament viability. Infact...sonic doesnt even beat any of the characters that fox loses to.

He is a better character on paper. He is also a better character in general. Espy got 5th @ a Hobo recently. Samboner got 3rd @ a Hobo recently. Rookie top 10'd in NY/NJ this season more than once. No sonic has top 10'd here this season. You guys are living in the past. No1 is placing with sonic anymore. To see KID belittle the Fox's tourney data like that is insulting. List the sonic tournament data in the past 3 months. Espys one 5th place performance. X's one good performance....and thats it. Don't act like Sonic is doing well. He WAS doing well, but those days are over. TKD just uploaded vids of him getting 2nd or 1st (I cant remember) using Fox. Scrub tourney or not...no sonic is getting 1st anywhere. Elitist garbage character mains remain elitist.

<3 u guys but you are out of line on this 1

 

[chaoechidna]

I've said this like 6 times on this same thread, but i agree with malcolm that fox is better than sonic as a character. Again. I'm surprised this discussion is STILL going on, usually everyone moves on from characters quicker than this.. But fox and falco are apparently 50:50 or 45:55 falco advantage, but i think most of the fox mains believe its even. I play with both fox and sonic, and thats basically where my fox knowledge comes from. I win more using fox than i do sonic, easy KO moves even if he is lighter than sonic. I went fox for a university tournament and placed 2nd, and thats when i sucked at fox, hes just easier to win with. And i beat a sheik in that one too, i don't know if they knew about the ftilt lock back then though lol. But as for sonic not winning to sheik, i dunno, i still think i'd use sonic for a sheik match rather than fox. Not sure about metaknight tho.. i thought sonic vs meta is more even than fox vs meta, but ive never played with any amazing metas so no knowledge in that area.

Fox > sonic still, sonic is harder than fox to win with though and i feel more accomplished using sonic to play. Prob why i main sonic now instead of fox. But if i want to win, i use fox.

And i don't think KID intentionally belittled fox tourney data, it just got pretty heated in here with fox boards and sonic boards and he was just defending sonic. I do remem it getting heated lol, everyone's so dedicated to their characters.. Both are amazingly fun characters to play with.

 

[Kuraudo]

MalcolmM has a point.

I still think Sonic's a tourney viable character, but you have to be really REALLY good to place well. Otherwise you just have too many bad match-ups that will end up keeping you down and holding you back.

 

[Browny]

but youre citing 1-off's which is clearly a result of 1-2 very good players simply using fox. you cant say those guys wouldnt do FAR better if they used a better character? Sounds exactly like a case of PT...

now look at this


Current List
D: Pit, Sonic, Wolf, Peach, Ike, Luigi, Pokémon Trainer, Link
E: Fox, Ness, Zelda/Sheik, Yoshi, Bowser, Ganondorf, Lucas, Mario, Samus, Captain Falcon, Jigglypuff


Past Lists

August-September 2009
C: Olimar, Kirby, Lucario, ROB, Zero Suit Samus, Mr. Game & Watch, Sonic, Donkey Kong, Toon Link
D: Link, Pit, Ike, Luigi, Zelda/Sheik, Pokémon Trainer, Peach, Wolf
E: Lucas, Yoshi, Bowser, Fox, Samus, Ganondorf, Mario, Ness, Jigglypuff, Captain Falcon

Summer 2009
C: Donkey Kong, Lucario, Sonic, Ness, Fox, Pit, Pokémon Trainer, Luigi, Peach

May-June 2009
C: Fox, Ness, Luigi, Wolf
D: Zelda/Sheik, Sonic, Yoshi, Pit, Ike, Mario, Lucas, Samus

Spring 2009
C: Lucario, Kirby, Peach, Sonic, Zero Suit Samus, Luigi, Zelda/Sheik, Fox

February/March 2009
C: Pit, Pikachu, Pokémon Trainer, Sonic, Fox, Peach, Lucas, Toon Link

Winter 2008/2009
D: (Toon Link, Luigi), Pikachu, Wolf, Sonic, Pit, (Fox, Peach), Pokémon Trainer, Zelda/Sheik, Ness, Ike

Fall 2008
C: Kirby, (Wolf, Peach), Pikachu, (Ice Climbers, Donkey Kong), Sonic, Zero Suit Samus
D: (Bowser, Zelda/Sheik, Toon Link, Ike, Luigi, Pit), Fox


I counter your empirical evidence with my empirical evidence. Explain this. and none of this 'hard to master' excuses because apparently IC's are hard to master and they are continually S- A tier despite only a handful of players actually using them. Also allow me to bring up popularity, in that sonic CONTINUOUSLY and has done for an vely long time, has one of the highest points per placing ratios of all characters, rarely outdone by pikachu. So its not pure popularity that makes him constantly rank higher.

Im not saying sonic is a better character, but your argument holds little weight when compared to all results across all regions over an entire year

 

[MalcolmM]

If results were the way we determined how good a character was...then Sonic would be way higher than he is. That is the refute to your entire argument. Your move, DJ.

Vex picked up Pit after the tier list, so what Pits have been doing so well that he is above Sonic? <3 Faulty tier list arguments.

 

[MarKO X]

Does it matter who's better if neither character can win a tourney?

Stop this talk and pick up a tourney viable character. Lol.

Okay, that was mean. This one is actually hard to say because while Fox is pretty good, he has some pretty impossible MUs and a pretty gimpable recovery (although I will admit that a good fox is pretty hard to gimp). Fox has a solid combo game, some solid kill moves, a projectile for refreshing stuff, etc.

Try answering this, which character is more likely to win against todays popular top and hi tiers?

 

[Browny]

If results were the way we determined how good a character was...then Sonic would be way higher than he is. That is the refute to your entire argument. Your move, DJ.

Vex picked up Pit after the tier list, so what Pits have been doing so well that he is above Sonic? <3 Faulty tier list arguments.

Sonics current tier list position: 23
Sonics average tournament ranking for part year = 20.14
its not 'way higher' like you put it.

Refute my argument? I dont recall ever putting one forward. How about reading what I said, which was solely providing evidence against your argument

"He is a better character on paper. He is also a better character in general. Espy got 5th @ a Hobo recently. Samboner got 3rd @ a Hobo recently. Rookie top 10'd in NY/NJ this season more than once. No sonic has top 10'd here this season. You guys are living in the past. No1 is placing with sonic anymore. To see KID belittle the Fox's tourney data like that is insulting. List the sonic tournament data in the past 3 months. Espys one 5th place performance. X's one good performance....and thats it. Don't act like Sonic is doing well. He WAS doing well, but those days are over. TKD just uploaded vids of him getting 2nd or 1st (I cant remember) using Fox. Scrub tourney or not...no sonic is getting 1st anywhere. Elitist garbage character mains remain elitist."

THIS is what my post was directed at, and you havent defended it at all. This is an extremely narrow way to look at things and completely missing the bigger picture. Fact is while sonic may not be doing well, that means fox is doing worse. you bring up 2 examples of fox players having rare successes but discount all the top 10's by Sonics. There is nothing in that paragraph which proves in the slightest that fox is a better character.

Did I ever say that tourney results prove Sonic is a better character? NO. All I said was that tourney data goes against what you are saying, and dont forget im still saying fox is a better character, stupid matchups aside. I believe the term is 'strawmanning' my argument. THIS is what I am saying: tourney results over the past year indicate Sonic performs better at tournaments in general than fox. He also has had a considerably higher points per placing ratio, indicating he places at tournaments with more entrants/entry fee.

and what the hell does pit have to do with anything, we dont care.

Fox has a solid combo game, some solid kill moves, a projectile for refreshing stuff, etc.

What are these 'some' solid kill moves? usmash.... bair?

 

[Llumys]

Sonic mains constantly mentioning how terribly hard their character is to master is getting irritating.

Take the meta-game into account, and not how difficult it is to reach it.

Anyway, from what I know, regardless of Fox's recent placings, I believe he's slightly better than Sonic.

 

[Browny]

Sonic mains constantly mentioning how terribly hard their character is to master is getting irritating.

Take the meta-game into account, and not how difficult it is to reach it.

Explain this, in detail.

At the moment its an incredibly vague blanket statement, a cover-up for your own lack or reasoning imo.

 

[Llumys]

It's tiring constantly hearing of how difficult Sonic is to use.

It doesn't greatly change how good of a character he is.

 

[Browny]

ok i read your statement wrong... ill fix this later

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Sonic's not hard to learn. Most Sonic's here are gonna hate me for saying that but look at where your perspective is. Sonic's game isn't HARD. We just had to DEVELOP a ****ty character. We saw him built from the ground up. I guarantee it's easier for people to pick him up NOW cause we Tenki did the grunt work.

tl:dr Sonic's not hard to learn. Sonic was hard to build.


That said I'm of the opinion that Fox is better than Sonic shifting from my even perspective earlier. I don't think it's a vast difference but it's certainly stands out more than Sheik or Ike.

I'm sick of this topic. Move the **** on. Fox has lasers, combos and combos INTO kills. Even if you want to argue everything else Fox has least has solidity on his side.

 

[Chis]

Alright, let's move on to Bowser Wowser.

Anyone mind getting some Bowser mains in here for me? :'D

 

[-Axis-]

I'll post an invitation in their matchup thread or something.

Fortress OOS is insanely broken, but you all knew that.

 

[Hobobloke]

Alrighty, how do we go about discussing this? General matchups against the cast?

 

[-Axis-]

Alrighty, how do we go about discussing this? General matchups against the cast?

Yup.

Then I guess we can get into each character's tools, tourney results, etc.

So, Bowser vs. D3 is impossible. x_x

But I noticed that (according to your thread) he goes almost even with Metaknight? How does Bowser approach that matchup?

 

[Hobobloke]

We used to think it was even, but know most of us agree it's in MK's favour personally I'd say it's about 35:65 maybe 30:70. Once the MK knows the matchup he can avoid the grab releases and **** us in the air. The main thing that hampers us though is once the MK gets the lead he can plank or even just sit at the other side of the stage as Bowser likes to be defensive and all his approaches can be shut down by MK.

Bowser vs DDD is about 40:60 without the infinite though so it depends onif it's allowed.

Generally it seems bowser has the same mathcup tren going as sonic does, a few horrid matchups (DDD, IC's), a few in his advantage against low tiers, but mostly all at a slight disadvantage.

 

[JayBee]

If I do remember correctly, Speed has gotten 4th and 5th this year against strong competition in MD/VA. you can ask him excactly what they were if you care DJ. this is not to start an argument, however.

 

[Cassius.]

Yup.

Then I guess we can get into each character's tools, tourney results, etc.

So, Bowser vs. D3 is impossible. x_x

But I noticed that (according to your thread) he goes almost even with Metaknight? How does Bowser approach that matchup?

Bowser vs D3 is NOT impossible, and it never was. People just have, time and time again (and I even admit that I overrated the matchup) over-hyped it. Honestly it isn't that bad. We have worse matchups to worry about, namely Ice Climbers.

Bowser vs MK is not even either...unfortunately ;-;. What you were reading was probably really old. Assuming the MK is actually good (like most matchups require lolol), Bowser loses to MK AT LEAST 60:40. It's a really "ugh" matchup.

So I guess that covers matchups...unless you need detail. :/

 

[B!squick]

I think Bowser and Sonic ride in the same boat, don't they? I mean, I know Sonic has a LOT of different approaches, but are any of them safe on block?

 

[Kinzer]

I think Bowser and Sonic ride in the same boat, don't they? I mean, I know Sonic has a LOT of different approaches, but are any of them safe on block?

All about the mindgames.

I wonder about Aerial Spin Charge though... I need to look into some shieldstun frame data from that.

A bit more on-topic, I would say they're both even. Now of course some things can factor here, of course the main thing being the matchups against the entire cast (more emphasis for top-tiers).

Considering Bowser is really underused, it's near impossible to tell whether or not with the same representation Sonic gets whether or not Bowser could be able to compete. Regardless, because he doesn't have any tourney results or representation says a bit something as well. Understand that I'm not biased against Bowser; I love the character, but I'm just going by statistics right now.

Most every Sonic agrees to some extent that our most difficult matchups are Mr. G&W and Lucario. From there on out, you have many debatables like Peach, Falco, Marth, Olimar, the list goes on. Theoretically though, Not even G&W or Lucario could stop Sonic from winning if he wanted it. Now because I don't know anything about Bowser, I'd like somebody else to cover his matchups so I can learn something, I am curious to see if anything has changed with the likes of D3, and some other 65:35s and above he has. My point is here is that not having an "impossible to win" MU should help Sonic's case of being more likely to win a tournament of any scale than Bowser is to do the same; if not for the reason that his tools aren't better than Sonic's, but because Bowser's tools don't help him in some other cases.

Then again, I'm sure everybody knows both have their ups and downs... the whole point of this is to see which one excels more in general... in a fashionable matter of course... had some really bad things go down in this thread; not gonna say names, but...

Then of course there is taking into consideration the rarity of those hard counters. Where I live though, so many people play Lucario (V_V), but I believe in general Lucario and G&W are just a little bit shy of "uncommon." It definitely hurts or helps a character if they are to have a near even MU with Meta Knight, who everybody knows is only played by everybody and their mother.

Outside of their **** matchups though, I believe I have to give Bowser the edge. Unlike Sonic who is only (somewhat) balanced but not broken in every field, Bowser has traits that of what makes a good character in this game. He's heavy, he has chaingrabs, a great defensive game (assuming he isn't forced to approach), see where I'm going with this? I believe you all do, and it just seems to me that Bowser does better when we're not looking at the worst case scenarios. Sonic is sadly too balanced in the sense that he only goes slightly in his favor... no more than 6:4.

That's my $0.02.

 

[Cassius.]

Ok, well for matchups, I can give you a little something.

Bowser goes even with or EXTREMELY CLOSE to even with Snake, Falco and Marth [from the top tiers]. If you need me to go into detail about why/how Bowser goes even with those guys I'll be happy to explain (I love playing against those three lul)

He obviously loses to Metaknight, Diddy Kong, Wario, Ice Climbers, Pikachu, Toon Link [Olimar?], with their ratios being 40-60 or worse. I actually find most of these characters forcing Bowser to play in an uphill position, so I don't quite enjoy facing them :/ Everyone else Bowser either beats or loses to 40-60 at worst. Taking your worst matchups, Bowser is even (or at least close to for the killjoys) with G&W and 40-60 with Lucario.

I can't quite say who's better than who because I really haven't played any Sonics with the exception of KID and Cyber lolol. I guess I should start playing more Sonics :/ But Kinzer is right in the sense that Bowser has everything Brawl is asking for, aka great defense CG's and etc. However, Bowser is Bowser, and the Smash Gods decided to douche it up and make him just not work sometimes :L I would say tournament wise Sonic has Bowser beat because SO many more people use Sonic.

Granted, with more Sonic users and fanbase I'm going to just assume there's a larger amount of Sonics out there that have no idea what they're doing, so having a small amount of Bowsers is alright sometimes because most of them that actually do well in tournaments are good. I can guarantee if you ever play a serious Bowser main there's a 70+% chance he's actually decent or good lol

 

[B!squick]

I have no trouble with MK. He's super easy to shield poke and dies fast. If he wants to be a douche and plank, I'll just CP Rainbow Cruise and see how well he does without a ledge to stand, er, grab on.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Explain Bowser vs. Falco please. I play Falco and Bowsers don't tend to give me any trouble. It's kind of annoying to get Fortress'd out of kill moves but besides that....

 

[B!squick]

Shield spam and predict the SideBs when you're Bowser. That's about it on our end.

 

[JayBee]

that sounds really bad.
I probably only see one decent bowser, and it felt like patience prevents bowser from really doing much to you. even though he has good tools, he kinda needs to to go to him. what can he do against campers and defensive mindsets, a mainstay in brawl? at least sonic has the mobility to still get to them and pressure them to do something else...

 

[ShadoFiend]

So like i was playin my bro the other day jabbed ran back b reversed into a footstool. it was cute :3 just wanted 2 share

wow def posted this in the wrong spot :-*

 

[B!squick]

that sounds really bad.
I probably only see one decent bowser, and it felt like patience prevents bowser from really doing much to you. even though he has good tools, he kinda needs to to go to him. what can he do against campers and defensive mindsets, a mainstay in brawl? at least sonic has the mobility to still get to them and pressure them to do something else...

If MK is planking you set the controller down and grab a soda. Just PS projectiles, which any Bowser player should be able to do well. Comes with the territory, you know what I mean? And if you get hit, so what, you're Bowser. Bowser is the heaviest character in the game which means only G&W should be living longer than you. Add to that FAir cancels out some projectiles. NAir beats about half of every projectile the game has to offer.

As for general camping, I like Firebreath. Sounds stupid and doesn't work on Sonic too well, but it has the most range and some characters, space animals for one, are forced to DI away if they get caught.

 

[BSP]

D3 will be living longer than Bowser, maybe Snake too.

Neither Sonic or Bowser have any **** matchups right? They both have some advantageous ones here and there.

The matchup thread says vs. Marth is 70 : 30 for marth....how old is that, and is it true? I've never had it that bad vs. Marth.

And I'm wondering, how does bowser fair against Oli?

 

[B!squick]

D3 will be living longer than Bowser, maybe Snake too.

How do you figure that? O.o

Neither Sonic or Bowser have any **** matchups right? They both have some advantageous ones here and there.

Bowser's match ups are average-ish to disadvantage. And then there's Ice Climbers. Oh, and the low tiers which we may have slight advantages in. Haven't gotten around to them.

The matchup thread says vs. Marth is 70 : 30 for marth....how old is that, and is it true? I've never had it that bad vs. Marth.

Sonic one says 35:65. Ours says 40:60. Not sure what you're referring to. :/

And I'm wondering, how does bowser fair against Oli?

We came to a 40:60 conclusion. I don't remember the discussion though, lol.

 

[da K.I.D.]

D3 will be living longer than Bowser, maybe Snake too.

What part of "heaviest character in the game" is unclear to you?

 

[BSP]

How do you figure that? O.o

What part of "heaviest character in the game" is unclear to you?

I thought D3 was the most resistant to vertical kos, and DK to horizontal...I'm not sure. I know Bowser is the heaviest, but does that mean he has the best momentum cancelling?