Is Sonic Mid-tier material? Is he better than Bowser again? (Read the OP)

[KirbyandSonicrock14]

Marsulas: anywhere flat with platforms, and has enough room for Sonic to do his thing.

 

[Camalange]

battlefield.




oh wait, that's me. nvm

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Marsulas: anywhere flat with platforms, and has enough room for Sonic to do his thing.

Kay... what about the fact that Sheik forces approaches and we sit and cry? lol Come to think of it Sheik might be better suited for neutrals....

 

[KirbyandSonicrock14]

I didn't see it that way Terios.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Yeah well that's why we're here. DISCUSSION! It's tough to try and remain unbiased though. :/

 

[TwinkleToes]

Well, play-style can largely determine a close match-up, and even more so when you throw the discussion of stages into the mix. I don't particularly find neutrals to be that good for Sheik, although I dislike playing against a Sheik on FD.

 

[-Mars-]

I can't speak for every Sheik player but I like these stages:

BF
SV
FD
Halberd
Japes
Norfair

Sheik does good on Luigi's(if legal) and Brinstar as well because she can keep her ftilt decayed as much as she wants but i'm not a personal fan of the stages.

I don't really feel that there's a stage that Sheik does bad on.....I men some stages mess with her recovery and some stages she dies earlier with her lightness but other than that I feel like Sonic and Sheik are pretty even as far as stages go.

 

[Kitamerby]

Otherwise, we should refer to PT as three seperate pokemon, because honestly, its not often that a forced switch occurs.

Forced switches occur twice a match at minimum, and often switches are the best choice when running out of stamina.

Don't compare Zelda/Sheik to Pokemon Trainer. You will lose every time.

 

[Chis]

Right. I think that we've discussed solo Shiek long enough and between the two of them it looks really close. Anyways, moving on to Fox.

 

[Umby]

Not better than Fox. Lasers and Usmash alone make Fox better. The only disadvantage Fox has in comparison to Sonic is his fall speed, which ****s him over in some match ups, but being able to force approches instead of putting yourself at risk to bait them more than makes up for it.

And if I didn't mention it, Fox has lasers and usmash.

 

[Browny]

is there anyone out there proving that fox is better than sonic at the highest level though? seems like the opposite is existing to me...

16 Sonic (5 top8, 5 top4, 1 top2, 1 win) - 70.6 - 18
30 Fox (8 top8, 2 top4) - 10.9 - 20

idk it seems like fox is obviously better... I really dislike his uncanny ability to die at freakishly low %'s though. occasional bad DI, gimpable recovery and severe light weight have him getting KO'd <80% regularly a little problematic :/

 

[chaoechidna]

Fox is better, imo. Usmash is insane. Laser isn't as good as falco, but still is good camping material. Reflector in brawl is amazing, and shine spikes are too good. Agree with DJbrowny too, he dies waaay to fast and doesn't have a good momentum cancel to live up to high percents anyway. Also agree that he isn't represented too well in tourneys. But still, i play space animals and sonic, and fox has it over sonic. Oh, and his recovery really isn't that bad, most ppl use the side b recovery of his over firefox anyway.

 

[infomon]

Sonic's better IMO, but I don't really know much about Fox's matchups across the board.

Maybe I'm biased cuz Fox's game always seems pretty linear to me. *shrug*

 

[da K.I.D.]

foxs game is incredibly linear, but the options he has are so effective that it doesnt matter.

fox also has true comboes, which is somethign that not only sonic, but most of the characters in this game dont have.

i think lasers and up smash make him equal to sonic, but the dair and the follow ups out of it are what pushes him over the top.

foxs matchups arent as bad as they are perceived to be.

sonic might be better tho just because he just doesnt get overall gayed as hard. sonic is a very base character in terms of things like punishing, comboes and matchups, where as foxs abilities flucuate wildly, based on the situation

 

[Trent]

Sonic's worst match ups are just really hard fights with possibilities of winning.

Fox has a match up against Pikachu that is just effing impossible 'cause LOLCHAINGRAB. Maybe if you're good enough to avoid getting grabbed? Fox's MUs against certain characters might be the reason why he's C-Tier, because he has some pretty insane moves, that have already been mentioned.

I vote for Fox better than Sonic.

 

[M@v]

The reason sonic>fox on tourney rankings are because there is a horde of sonic players, and like 0 fox players.

fox is overall better, but all you have to do to beat him is pick sheik/ICS/or pika. Sheik or Pika require 0 skill to use vs fox. Fox may have lasers and can force approaches, but he is awful when he does have to approach; one of the worst in the game. All of his approaches are garbage and ridiculously easy to sheildgrab or punish. The best way to play him is wait for the other guy to **** up, then use fox's TRUE combos to punish them. This is why fox will never reach the upper tiers; he cannot create opportunities on his own. Someone like Falco on the other hand has reliable approaches, and Falco can use lasers to expose an opening in the opponent.
Back to Fox. Camp when away, and use one a bunch of ways to land upsmash. Although he has 3 unwinnables, he also has a couple really hard winnable matchups(Luigi,Kirby).

FYI, ZSS vs fox is not unwinnable; its actually more like even. Just throwing that out there because that rumor is still going around.

 

[da K.I.D.]

dont give me that no fox players bullcrap. i attribute the lack of fox players to his multiple auto lose matchups, and by translation, his not being as good or good enough as a character

people dont play him because he is bad

 

[Fenrir VII]

Well, the ratio of Sonic Tourney placings to Fox tourney placings is completely dependent on the number of players of each.... and let's look at a couple things:

1. Sonic in Brawl was a completely new thing... and added such hype to the game that every magazine in the gaming world had some sort of "Now Mario and Sonic can finally fight" line in their articles.

2. Fox in brawl is the third iteration of the character. he was basically God in Melee, and received one of the largest nerfs of all the characters in the Brawl transition. So coming into Brawl, all these Fox players (including me, for that matter) played him once, or a handful of times, realized he was no longer god, and lost interest, switching to a new character. (I eventually realized Fox was a lot of fun again)

All the hype about Sonic in brawl made EVERYBODY want to play him... including me, and I don't really have any emotional ties to the sonic games... and when you get used to him, Sonic is a pretty fun character.

I just think that the original wave of "oh...Fox sucks now" is still around, and makes most people forget about him. And with the origin of Pikachu's CG and the locks and such, Fox is considered a wasted character, so even more people stay away from using him.

Personally, I feel that Fox can beat his bad matchups... but I'm fairly alone in thinking that. I do say, however, that the number of Sonic players greatly increases the knowledge of the character, and the character's tournament placings, much more than the few Foxes who even enter tournaments.

 

[Zhamy]

dont give me that no fox players bullcrap. i attribute the lack of fox players to his multiple auto lose matchups, and by translation, his not being as good or good enough as a character

people dont play him because he is bad

That doesn't automatically translate to him being a bad character, even if it is true. There's no doubt that there aren't many Fox players. But you and I could argue all day about why people aren't playing Fox, but you're not going to be able to prove why people don't play him (unless you survey the entire Smash community about their reasons, in which case, I congratulate you on a stellar waste of time).

Fox also isn't as linear as you claim him to be, but I won't argue that point - you're conceding that it doesn't matter, so I won't fix what isn't broken.

The only reason someone could conceivably claim that Sonic is without a doubt better than Fox is because of 3 matchups:

-Sheik v Fox (75:25)
-ICs v Fox (75:25)
-Pika v Fox (70:30)

While it's not complete ****, most Fox players consider those unwinnable, more or less. Good Fox players like Zeton and Rookie have shown that it's possible to win those matchups, but difficult. They're also not auto-win, since you have to actually understand how to play each of those three to really abuse their advantages against Fox.

Fox may have lasers and can force approaches, but he is awful when he does have to approach; one of the worst in the game. All of his approaches are garbage and ridiculously easy to sheildgrab or punish. The best way to play him is wait for the other guy to **** up, then use fox's TRUE combos to punish them. This is why fox will never reach the upper tiers; he cannot create opportunities on his own.

Eh, this isn't really true. I think Fox and Sonic share a bit of background in terms of "mindgame potential," although Sonic may have more tricks for that.

he also has a couple really hard winnable matchups(Luigi,Kirby).

Bull****. Luigi is 65:35 or 60:40, Kirby is about even (maybe 60:40).




Anyway, we've done this before, and we ended up spending half the time trying to convince Shadowlink84 or whatever his name was that Dair->Usmash was a true combo. Just a warning, if something dumb like that happens again, most of us will be out of here.

 

[Fenrir VII]

All of his approaches are garbage and ridiculously easy to sheildgrab or punish. The best way to play him is wait for the other guy to **** up, then use fox's TRUE combos to punish them. This is why fox will never reach the upper tiers; he cannot create opportunities on his own.

Meh, I agree with most of this post, but this hasn't really been true since the more wide-spread use of Bair, unpunishable on shield, or well-spaced Nair, also unpunishable on most char's shields.

They're also not auto-win, since you have to actually understand how to play each of those three to really abuse their advantages against Fox.

Yes. thank you. There is no reason Fox should be scared of any of those characters, unless they are in the hands of players who understand the matchup against Fox... they are not instant CP wins for anybody.

Anyway, we've done this before, and we ended up spending half the time trying to convince Shadowlink84 or whatever his name was that Dair->Usmash was a true combo. Just a warning, if something dumb like that happens again, most of us will be out of here.

amen.

 

[M@v]

Well, I have won those unwinnables as well zhamy, but its ridiculously hard. Basically its "dont get grabbed" with the easiest to grab character in the game.

And kirby ***** spacies. Its kinda simple. It might b 6:4, but no way even.
And I consider 65:35 a hard winnable matchup.

Bear in mind ratios only apply if the players are even in skill. Its why Im not a huge fan of ratio numbers.


@Fen
When it comes to fox, some characters still can punish you for spaced nairs and bairs, like mk, snake, and marth.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Well, I have won those unwinnables as well zhamy, but its ridiculously hard. Basically its "dont get grabbed" with the easiest to grab character in the game.

And kirby ***** spacies. Its kinda simple. It might b 6:4, but no way even.
And I consider 65:35 a hard winnable matchup.

Bear in mind ratios only apply if the players are even in skill. Its why Im not a huge fan of ratio numbers.


@Fen
When it comes to fox, some characters still can punish you for spaced nairs and bairs, like mk, snake, and marth.

easiest to grab character in the game? Nah, man I just disagree here.

I mean honestly, if the Fox player is stupid, then yeah, but Fox has tools to avoid a grab, just like most other characters. You shouldn't be getting grabbed much at all...

And Snake and Marth cannot punish you for an AC Bair. MK is a bit debateable, because AC is a bit finicky against him, but the Bair connecting with the shield outranges a shuttle loop OoS

 

[Curaga]

The big hinderance of Fox is truly a matter of some horribly difficult match-ups: Shiek, Pikachu, Ice Climbers.

Otherwise Fox remains a solid character who would be considered a lot higher on the tier list if the exploitations of his fall speed did not exist. I guess this thread isn't so much of a "match-up discussion" as much as it is a conversation of tier list placement?

Fox has speed and great aerial mobility, those it doesn't rival Sonic's we also have the convenience of a projectile and a reflector to defend/retaliate in motion;

Combo heavy: Dair which leads into several moves, jab cancels which lead into several moves, shine, nair, uptilt, down tilt, down-thow and so on. Each of these starting moves can lead reliably into others for quick damage creation. Fox is a killing machine.

Lasers are an excellent projectile that without knockback can seem trivial as we add on % and restore our movesets. Even shooting at destructable stage objects helps us restore our moves which means a lot when a successful up or down smash is delivered.

Our reflector continues to be one of the best B moves in the game in terms of usage as it stands as a: reflector, momentum cancel, spiking tool, mid-air stall, combo tool, and a tool that allows us to change direction in mid air.

Our grab range is semi-******** and nonsensical as we seem to be able to grab things that are well out of reach; even with just a normal shield grab. Like grabbing MK out of his tornado and other weird things.

A well aimed forward air deal about 21% damage, which is 1/4 of what is required to have most opponents in upsmash danger. Up-tilts at low percent can guide some characters to the 40% range, and other fortunate ones to 30%.. this does not include tech chases which can contist of a SH n-aerial shield grab, and more. Our up-tilt acts as a replacement for .. lets say Falco's early % chaingrab.. and occaisionally its a bit easier to pull off as well.

Fox's strengths all lie in his ability to face off rather equally with the top and upper tier characters in this game; (Falco, MKish, Snake, King DDD, so on) while falling victim to just a couple terrible one sided match ups.

Sonic is an amazing character which happens to rely a lot on the player's ability to mindgame and be unpredictable, where the advantages of Fox are built into his character.

Just some stuff.. hope it helps?

By the way: I friggin' love Sonic.

There's a lack of love for McCloud.

 

[Kitamerby]

Fox is still top tier. He just traded waveshining for the Flamedash.

 

[Curaga]

Fox is still top tier. He just traded waveshining for the Flamedash.

Whats a Flamedash?

I think its called a: FLAMEDASH!!!

I could be wrong.

 

[Moon-Doggie]

I believe the match up is about even between Fox and Sonic.
Some advantages Sonic has on Fox would be his speed Juggle game
and ledge game. Fox on the other hand beats Sonic in kill potential
and general face to face combat and Camping. The main factor that Makes Fox even with Sonic Has to be his laser camp game. If it weren't for that Sonic would run circles around Fox and make him approach which would be bad.
Fox's camp game lets him play safe and defensively allowing to punish Sonic. Luckily his ridiculous speed compensates for the camping BUT Fox has a great up close game which focuses with low aerials and grabs. I am not sure but I do not think Sonic has any moves that can really counter moves like SH>Dair so with that in mind It would be best for the sonic to take fox to the air.
Uair goes about even with Fox's Dair and can be used effectively to punish airdodges. This makes Juggling Fox a good way of getting Damage, even and early kill since he is the 7th lightest character.
We also have off the ledge. Fox has almost no game on Sonic's ridiculous recovery. Sonic on the other hand, has the spring, Bair, even the homing attack. Fox's recovery is not half bad but if a Sonic can anticipate what he will do (For example Rising Fair) a well spaced Bair will help Reset and give Sonic more of a lead.

Each character really has things going for them both making them pretty even. If I think of anything I'll addon to this loooong post haha.

 

[Kinzer]

^^

Dis iz naught a Mass-up tred.

With that said, I find it funny how I avoid this thread like the plague.

AND~ to stay on-topic, I am fairly convinced that Fox would be a much better character if he just didn't get Gayed by crap. poor Sonic has no basics going for him, save for a few characters *coughIhateLucariocough*, it's all a player-to-player battle that I find hard to win a lot of the times.

But I don't give up after a few

Spoiler

LOL! Try more than a couple dozen

failures.

 

[chaoechidna]

I can see why IC's and pika are very hard for fox, but what does sheik have? Is there some kinda chain grab that sheik can do on fox? I've never heard.. As for ZSS, definitely not unbeatable. It's a matchup that takes work, but fox can still win if played right.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Ftilt
10(thousand) ftilts

 

[Zhamy]

Sheik doesn't really beat Fox.

Ftilt beats Fox. Basically, if Fox ever gets to 25%, and then gets hit by Ftilt, he dies. Ftilt chain goes from 0-90%-ish, then finishes with an Usmash.

Yay.

 

[Lightning93]

I honestly hate Shiek more than Pika, at least Pika has a somewhat small grab range and doesn't have low to insta-death combos on you.

But yeah, I find Sonic to be one of the characters with definite potential, but so is Fox imo. Sonic isn't better than Fox for reasons previously stated, but I believe both of them should be moving up the tier list.

 

[Umby]

Sonic shouldn't move higher. He's got nothing on anyone in C tier (not to mention, I personally don't believe he deserves C tier at all). Fox, maybe, but only if he can get better rep and show he can do better than Luigi. Not sure if he can compete with Peach in that regard, though.

 

[chaoechidna]

ohh, i've never seen a sheik ftilt lock. Ill have to youtube it just in case i ever go up against sheik with my fox. And i gotta agree with synch, sonic shouldn't be going up. As a character, he isn't really C tier at all. The players and their mindgames are just amazing imo, and im not just saying that cause i play sonic. His moveset really isn't good at all, there are no special moves that make him amazing (shine for fox is pretty freakin amazing). The sonics that do well in tourneys are just really really good strategists that are able to adapt incredibly well to situations presented to them. Sonic is really not a good character, and he is not better than fox. Fox has much better moves, and as a character is better than sonic. Sonic has to work extremely hard for his kill. So does fox, especially since his weight is so low, but he has that powerful usmash. Sonic doesn't have that. Also, fox can combo! Well, better than any other brawl character. And that in itself makes fox an amazing character.

I gotta say, i'm not bragging about my sonic playing skills. I'm just ok at sonic. It's just some of the videos i've seen, like malcolm, shugo, umby(synch), and some others just really are incredible. I don't see that too often with other characters at all. The other vids might be of a character winning, but the work that is put into the win is less than that of some of the players that rep sonic. Sonic isn't special, as almost anyone on these boards will say. He really isn't a good character at all. I honestly think that fox deserves to go up in tier, he has a lot of really good moves. He just needs more ppl playing him. Even then, fox has been nerfed so hard from 64 and melee.. Both characters are good, but as characters, fox is better.
Honestly, the things ive seen some of the fox board members do with fox are also pretty spectacular. When i saw some shine spike vids, i was just floored.. The combo vids you guys have are pretty sick (i think it was light/monkey combo vid that i was amazed by when i started with fox). Both sonic and fox are the most fun characters for me to play as, and i think that might be because both aren't overpowered and have to work for kills. It makes the matches fun and results rely on skill more than spamming tornados.

 

[Umby]

ohh, i've never seen a sheik ftilt lock. Ill have to youtube it just in case i ever go up against sheik with my fox. And i gotta agree with synch, sonic shouldn't be going up. As a character, he isn't really C tier at all. The players and their mindgames are just amazing imo, and im not just saying that cause i play sonic. His moveset really isn't good at all, there are no special moves that make him amazing (shine for fox is pretty freakin amazing). The sonics that do well in tourneys are just really really good strategists that are able to adapt incredibly well to situations presented to them. Sonic is really not a good character, and he is not better than fox. Fox has much better moves, and as a character is better than sonic. Sonic has to work extremely hard for his kill. So does fox, especially since his weight is so low, but he has that powerful usmash. Sonic doesn't have that. Also, fox can combo! Well, better than any other brawl character. And that in itself makes fox an amazing character.

I gotta say, i'm not bragging about my sonic playing skills. I'm just ok at sonic. It's just some of the videos i've seen, like malcolm, shugo, umby(synch), and some others just really are incredible. I don't see that too often with other characters at all. The other vids might be of a character winning, but the work that is put into the win is less than that of some of the players that rep sonic. Sonic isn't special, as almost anyone on these boards will say. He really isn't a good character at all. I honestly think that fox deserves to go up in tier, he has a lot of really good moves. He just needs more ppl playing him. Even then, fox has been nerfed so hard from 64 and melee.. Both characters are good, but as characters, fox is better.

Just a quick nitpick, but Fox doesn't have to work that hard to kill. He can actually COMBO into his kills.

 

[Lightning93]

Lol, maybe I should compliment other character boards more! They end up doing the discussion for you! .

But yeah guys, let's just, ya know, rep some C tier.

 

[chaoechidna]

Just a quick nitpick, but Fox doesn't have to work that hard to kill. He can actually COMBO into his kills.

Should have said "work hard for his WINS," not kills. Cause you're right, down air to upsmash is pretty crazy.

 

[Zephil]

fox is so unique that he is the only one that has this:

chaingrab: Pikachu
chaintilt: Sheik
chainSMASH: ZSS

... yeah is sad but still they are not 0-100 matches for fox

 

[KirbyandSonicrock14]

Isn't Sonic C tier because his rep in trouneys and advance techs? I think he's fine at C, and doesn't need to go higher guys. We already show everyone what steak can do. Our job is done. Let's just work on stealing first with Sonic in bigger events. P.S I am being serious guys. KASR

 

[da K.I.D.]

fox has better moves in terms of offensive, but his defense capabilities are staggeringly low.

sonics moves help him not only offensively but defensively as well. spring to get out of bad situations and spin dashes to avoid death should be giving more credit me thinks.

sonic is a good character, because you cant have this many sonics placing in tourneys, without the character being good. If PT had this many people placing in tourneys then he would be like A/B tier. but since its just 1 dude, he cant get out of low tier. the fact that we have so many people, that arent even that great tbh, placing with the character means that he is obviously capable of doing more than what most think

 

[KirbyandSonicrock14]

You got a pointmy friend. That makes wonder about El Furete's placings. Also you forgot Sonic has the better off stage game compare to Fox.