Is Sonic Mid-tier material? Is he better than Bowser again? (Read the OP)

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Funny.

I agree. Although I do wish Icies turned into 2 little ninjas.... T_T

Look. If you want to discuss Sheik/Zelda in relation to Sonic come back later. We'll be glad to admit that you beat our ***** six ways from Sunday. We're discussing SHEIK. It's NOT a difficult concept.

 

[Chis]

We're discussing SHEIK. It's NOT a difficult concept.

Quoted for emphasis.

 

[Camalange]

Chis, just to let people sleep more easily, are we ever going to discuss Shiek/Zelda..

..Or Shiek--->Zelda? lol

 

[infomon]

Although I do wish Icies turned into 2 little ninjas.... T_T

Quoted for emphasis.

 

[<π]

Zelda is horrible, who cares?

Sheik doesn't have a hard counter.

Armada has been placing consistently with sheik for quite some time.

 

[da K.I.D.]

heres the thing about sheik and zelda,

when you fight one, you used the established strategy to fight the one, when she transforms to the other, you use the established strategy to fight the other one.

Like, is there some reason you would fight zelda differently depending on when she comes in to the match?

what exactly is the difference between discussing the matchup seperately or together? nothing. if we talked about them both at the same time, what in the hell would it do besides make the discussion more complecated.

If weve discussed zelda, and we know what we need to do when we are at 100%, why the hell does it matter whether zelda or sheik got us to 100%?

 

[<π]

this isn't a match up discussion thread.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Well...it's not a matchup discussion between Sonic and either of those two/both of those two. The matchups they have are still both quite relevant.

 

[aeghrur]

Zelda is horrible, who cares?

Sheik doesn't have a hard counter.

Armada has been placing consistently with sheik for quite some time.

I'm not going to argue with you about whether or not your match-up threads are correct, but last I checked, 80-20 is a hard counter.
Sonic has been placing consistently for quite some time.

this isn't a match up discussion thread.

<3.

 

[da K.I.D.]

the point remains valid.

changing into zelda doesnt make sheik any better.

 

[Camalange]

She goes from being average to trash basically, lol

gg

 

[ShadowLink84]

A couple things... Armada picked Ice Climbers against Zac, I think, and Meta Knight against Fly Amanita. Sheik's fsmash is really weird in that the first hit has set knockback but that set knockback varies based on WHAT PART of the leg hits you, giving the illusion that you DI'd out of the second hit when in reality it was just poor spacing on the Sheik's part.

So she has to hit with the inside of her Fsmash in order for the second to hit?
Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[<π]

the inside or the very tip, correct.

it still isn't a great kill move. dsmash is better in terms of speed and knock back, fsmash is only really better in terms of range and in fewer cases duration...

 

[Zankoku]

Zelda is horrible, who cares?

Sheik doesn't have a hard counter.

Armada has been placing consistently with sheik for quite some time.

Despite your insistence, Ice Climbers still hard counter Sheik. Armada did not use Sheik against Fly Amanita.

 

[Camalange]

Despite your insistence, Ice Climbers still hard counter Sheik. Armada did not use Sheik against Fly Amanita.

Thank you for veryfing.


Now, this is the first time I heard in a long while of a Shiek doing much of anything at a regional (I could be wrong about this, If I am, please do inform), and he couldn't even go all Shiek because of a hard counter.

Doesn't that kinda say something about the character's viability? I'm not saying Sonic is going to be winning any regionals...ever, but he has a higher chance of placing well imo simply because he doesn't have one end all be all MU against him.

 

[Zankoku]

Sheik can always press Down+B and all of a sudden the matchup isn't disadvantageous :V

 

[Camalange]

lol, this again xD

 

[Zankoku]

In the end I'd rather fear a single matchup that can be dealt with by switching to a character mid-game than lack any single terrible matchup but have a whole bunch of difficult ones. Maybe I'm just a fan of polarized things that way.

 

[GTA_Hater_331]

I'm speaking personally here, because I don't know Judo or the metagame. I'm just barely better with Fox than with Sonic, because Sonic is has a lot more speed and I'm more evasive with his Spring Jump, but Fox has more attack and defence power.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

In the end I'd rather fear a single matchup that can be dealt with by switching to a character mid-game than lack any single terrible matchup but have a whole bunch of difficult ones. Maybe I'm just a fan of polarized things that way.

No it's not that. It's just that in this thread we're discussing SHEIK right now. Not Sheik/Zelda. If for whatever reason people wanna play as JUST Sheik. We're...probably gonna have a Sheik/Zelda section too. I mean I THINK we are but it's pointless as the combo is far and away better than Sonic.

 

[Camalange]

It's just that in this thread we're discussing SHEIK right now. Not Sheik/Zelda. If for whatever reason people wanna play as JUST Sheik. We're...probably gonna have a Sheik/Zelda section too. I mean I THINK we are but it's pointless as the combo is far and away better than Sonic.

This.


Right now we're just discussing Shiek/Zelda. I brought this up already but this is a tier list discussion right? The tier list has Shiek and Zelda currently as two seperate characters right? So wouldn't it make sense for us to discuss them seperatley as highest priority?

We need to do a Shiek/Zelda sometime it seems >_>

 

[Kinzer]

No, we don't, because it's pointless. Everybody and their mother already knows that the two together make a much better character Sonic, what is so hard to understand that we just want to talk about the both of them individually?

 

[Zankoku]

I'm not particularly interested in talking about solo Sheik. :<

I only feel that she's a proper choice in select matchups, which doesn't speak very well of her viability.

 

[Kinzer]

...So then is this discussion all burnt out and now it's up to us to make an unbiased decision? We do kind of need to move on if we're not going to do anything here.

I don't really care what direction we go, nobody has even made a crack/joke at anything I've said, so I think my job here is to just keep up-to-date.

 

[Camalange]

So, by the way the Shiek/Zelda mains have been clearly trying their very hardest for the past 10 pages to avoid just discussing Shiek without her "Down B har har its in mah moveset", shows that Sonic > Shiek.



Unless of course someone would like to actually discuss just Shiek and prove it, but everyone seems to be against that as far as I can tell.

 

[<π]

So, by the way the Shiek/Zelda mains have been clearly trying their very hardest for the past 10 pages to avoid just discussing Shiek without her "Down B har har its in mah moveset", shows that Sonic > Shiek.

Read my posts please.

Unless of course someone would like to actually discuss just Shiek and prove it, but everyone seems to be against that as far as I can tell.

I still am. Come on, lets jam!

You are cool. Haiku.

 

[Zankoku]

"Read my posts please" is four syllables, not five.

 

[<π]

puh-lease?...

haiku is streaching it as well...

 

[Chis]

Solo Sheik like we discussed solo Zelda. I'm not saying this again. Many people have made this perfectly clear.

 

[<π]

Solo Sheik like we discussed solo Zelda. I'm not saying this again. Many people have made this perfectly clear.

hahaha, I'm trying the greater majority of my post are being ignored.

 

[Kinzer]

Join the club.

 

[aeghrur]

Hard counters limit viability greatly for solo shiek.
Solo shiek has a hard counter.
The hard counter happens to be popular. :o
Discuss.

 

[Zankoku]

I did not realize Ice Climbers was a popular character. When did this happen?

 

[<π]

I've met two... maybe three competent ICs in my brawl career. (I've beaten all of them with sheik though.) ICs are popular and good ICs are very rare, almost as rare as good sheiks.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Popularity has nothing to do with it anyway.

Now earlier Kid said, if its sheik, use aforementioned strategies for sheik, when she switches to zelda, insert strategies regarding Zelda.

This is true but the simple fact that its being performed in the middle of a match alone is enough reason to refer to the characters as Sheik/Zelda.

Sheik is an integral part of Zelda, it isnt a case like ZSS where the number of changes is limited.
Its the same as PT, except you arent forced to switch at a certain time limit.

Otherwise, we should refer to PT as three seperate pokemon, because honestly, its not often that a forced switch occurs.

 

[<π]

uuuuuugggg!!

 

[Chis]

Can certain people stop derailing.

 

[Chis]

So, conclusions?

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Y'know what? I think we're better simply cause we do a little better on a decent bit of CP stages. Sheiks prove me wrong? It's close. It's **** close. I can't think of anything other than stages that'll push it one way or the other.

 

[-Mars-]

What stages do you think Sonic performs better on and i'll tell you how I feel about those certain stages for Sheik.