Is Sonic Mid-tier material? Is he better than Bowser again? (Read the OP)

[infomon]

camalulz is correct

It's counter-intuitive, but since side-B normally stops your horizontal momentum when you use it in the air.... if you use it during knockback (ie. as you're flying away after you get hit), it actually gives you an extra boost away from the stage. This is in addition to the amount the charging state pulls you back (which is negligible in comparison).

It's the same reason that Fox's shine can't be used during knockback; it pushes him further away from the stage lol

down-B doesn't have this problem, so it's better.

Additionally, down-B can (barely) save you from some vertical KOs better than side-B. Both will completely "brake" your horizontal and vertical momentum once they're released, but then obv side-B does a hop which can go into the killzone, whereas down-B doesn't.

 

[Guilhe]

Yep, but in match ups where the character can gimp him very easily, he gets ***** in aka Olimar, Dedede, Falco, MK. This is not a problem for Sonic though, add in his recovery and good momentum cancel, and it could be argued that on average (or at least in the mentioned match ups) that Sonic lives a bit longer than Ike.

Ike racks damage better them Sonic imo

Just stating that Olimar and Falco does not gimp Ike easily, they just make it awfully hard for Ike to approach them.

 

[Chis]

Olimars Pikimin and Falco's spike?

 

[Jim Morrison]

How about I just F-air you with this Pikmin and then throw some purple pikmen.

 

[chaoechidna]

For some reason, Ike's smash attacks, as slow as they are, still seem to be able to connect more than they should. That's what Ike has going for him. Every move is a falcon punch with the guy, but they all seem to actually connect a good amount of the time. And aether is an amazing recovery when used right, as is his side b. His jab beats almost anything, it's just too good. And his air attacks are also insanely powerful. Oh and you can't star KO him for anything, or get him far off enough off the sides. Gotta gimp him.

Sonic is much faster. Ike's too slow! He racks damage up on Ike quicker as long as Ike doesn't get in a couple of hits (lets face it, those couple are enough). Sonic sometimes gets too predictable, and that's a problem I used to have with Ike. As soon as a good Ike knows your sonic, you can get owned. Especially with that jab. Rack damage, connect with a fsmash, then get ready to fair him off the stage for a kill.

I used to have a lot of trouble with Ike's forward B. The best way is to run straight at him while he's charging up, make him think you're going for a grab or dash attack. Then, shield cancel your run right when you think he's going to release. He hits your shield and gets lag (his forward B always gets lag when it connects or when you dodge or shield), ample opportunity for you to grab. Repeat for those spammy ike's. I know this matchup well (i think) since my friend mains ike, and i gotta say that sonic is better. A lot of you guys are still discovering a bunch of stuff for sonic, while Ike's stuff hasn't really gotten an overhaul at all. There's so many diff. ways to play sonic, and not so many for ike. But i might be biased. Sorry ike mains..

 

[Guilhe]

Olimars Pikimin and Falco's spike?

The Pikmins only invalidate the QD, and Ike can recover almost the same distance with Aether. As for Falco’s spike, Aether can reach high enough to land on the stage assuming the Ike knows how to meteor cancel properly.

For some reason, Ike's smash attacks, as slow as they are, still seem to be able to connect more than they should. That's what Ike has going for him. Every move is a falcon punch with the guy, but they all seem to actually connect a good amount of the time. And aether is an amazing recovery when used right, as is his side b. His jab beats almost anything, it's just too good. And his air attacks are also insanely powerful. Oh and you can't star KO him for anything, or get him far off enough off the sides. Gotta gimp him.

Sonic is much faster. Ike's too slow! He racks damage up on Ike quicker as long as Ike doesn't get in a couple of hits (lets face it, those couple are enough). Sonic sometimes gets too predictable, and that's a problem I used to have with Ike. As soon as a good Ike knows your sonic, you can get owned. Especially with that jab. Rack damage, connect with a fsmash, then get ready to fair him off the stage for a kill.

I used to have a lot of trouble with Ike's forward B. The best way is to run straight at him while he's charging up, make him think you're going for a grab or dash attack. Then, shield cancel your run right when you think he's going to release. He hits your shield and gets lag (his forward B always gets lag when it connects or when you dodge or shield), ample opportunity for you to grab. Repeat for those spammy ike's. I know this matchup well (i think) since my friend mains ike, and i gotta say that sonic is better. A lot of you guys are still discovering a bunch of stuff for sonic, while Ike's stuff hasn't really gotten an overhaul at all. There's so many diff. ways to play sonic, and not so many for ike. But i might be biased. Sorry ike mains..

Chris, you should probably add “not a matchup discussion” to the title of this thread.

 

[Camalange]

"Chris" already has "not a matchup discussion" in the OP though. So if people aren't going to bother reading the OP, they won't bother reading the whole title. Title's long enough as it is.

 

[Kinzer]

WTF @ formal discussions in mah Sawnik boards, what has happened since I have been gone besides sophistication?

*Ahem.*

Bare with me, I know some of these are old, but either I can make a pun out of them or I have my own opinion/reply on them.

Approaches.



Ike has more reliable kill set ups then Sonic. Sonic is able to punish more frequently but Ike can punish a lot harder when given the chance, potential taking a stock.



However Ike's range makes him safer in certain situations than Sonic.

In mah Barlw?!

Sounds much like Fox now, huh?

kojin,
1. its harder to CG ike than sonic, cus sonic springs on frame 5 and ike jabs on frame 3

2. ikes kill set ups,
jab to anything.
up tilt,
f tilt
fair
turnaround bair,
f smash
reverse f smash

Too bad Ike has nothing to get him out of anything in the air, whereas Sonic... eh well Spring Jump is pretty self-explanatory.

FTilt works barely (if at all)

So does FSmash (you have to be a ****** or severely limited to get hit by this).

Reverse FSmash is lulzy, I'll give you that.

Besides that, how do you juggle if you can't keep your ball (in this case a character) in the air? You might as well just be bouncin' it (or in this case letting it hit the ground and then (trying) to get it back up in the air).

I think people overestimate ikes recovery of all things... when I watch videos of pros vs ikes its ridiculous how often and at how low % they can get gimped. I cant imagine ike going anywhere but down on the tier list

In a game, where most characters have a good recovery, Ike has it pretty noticeably bad, I don't know how people get this mixed up.

TO: Ike is mid tier, so he's banned now in low tiers. Sorry guys.
M2K: I main Ike in low tiers.
TO: As I was saying, you can still use Ike in low tiers.

That is awesome, but why do you love to piss off the good players Kita?

*applauds most of the Sonic boards for not just going "lol Ike sucks" like the majority of the character boards*

I love how he says "most" just before Roy's post and even though Roy was being quite stereotypical, he was moreorless right.

Just saying, I don't want a debate here please.

Although I do think Ike sucks, but hey y'all can just play the same card and say "Sonic sucks" and get away with it (kinda).

They say the same thing about us, too.

I usually find more comments insulting US, I think it's pretty clear to everybody now that Sonic is alright.

I fear for the mental stability of the False SBR though.

Ike is worse online then offline though. Online kills our spacing ability, timing ability, and hurts jab canceling. >_>

I can't help but disagree with this somewhat, but let's just stop there and come to an agreement that Wi-Fi just sucks in general for everybody except Wuuf.

I think it's just that Ike gets camped too hard. How's his performance on tourney legal stages?

I believe you to be right.

Pirate Ship? Amazing.

Almost 'nuff said.

Ike's problem is not stages (most of the time), it's the characters that give Ike trouble, and just the bad stages that you shouldn't be going to/allow to be unbanned if that's possible.

Sure some stages can alleviate some of the problems with those characters, but again there's no getting around that some characters just give Ike trouble, much like everybody else save for Meta Knight obviously.

I hate it when people don't listen to common sense. It's like the people who say Sonic is god-like on wifi when he's not. This discussion about whether he's good on wifi is stupid and unrelated so stop discussing it.

People gotta get learned, son.

Everyone's main is terrible online, because if they main him offline, they try to bring their offline playstyle online and are like "arrgh i can't do x movement that requires precision online >:O"

See: Wuuf O' Dawnnul.

Actually, Ike doesn't get killed by it, he just slides away. He regains his second jump for having touched the ground.

That something I did not know.

Sonic does fine on a lot of stages too except brinstar and japes. Too bad he hasn't got a stage like pirate ship :/

Also Sonic has a better time approaching then Ike due to his mobility, which helps vs Olimar, Falco and some others.

Please eradicate the stigma that I have given you saying that Japes is a bad stage for Sonic, I'm terribly sorry about it in the first place though.

It is an amazing stage, or at worst an okay stage, I promise.

Brinstar is meh.

Also for amazing stages you should see Angel Island Zone. Not to be confused with Green Hill Zone though.

Correct.

Way, way, way, better than Ike.

I wouldn't say WAY, but in terms of top level play and tourney viability, yeah I don't see why not.

This post.

Thanks Doc, that reminds me.

I would love to see Chis suggest one of us or the whole community comes with a paragraph-long consensus saying what and why, and then you see Zelda's reasoning for being above/below Sonic and the summary/following reads:

Really now?

It would make a good laugh.

Olimars Pikimin and Falco's spike?

Ike plays against Olimar like Sonic does where his normal playstyle is severely limited if not eliminated, and he will have to play entirely differently just to get around, and the new playstyle is in Olimar's field of play. With Ike it's just a much bigger degree.

Falco's spike is not the problem, it's getting grabbed at a low percentage and how Falco has his pew pew not only to be annoying, but to limit Ike's game and make him come to Falco which set-ups for most everything.

Whew, longer than I thought it would be.

 

[JayBee]

For some reason, Ike's smash attacks, as slow as they are, still seem to be able to connect more than they should. That's what Ike has going for him. Every move is a falcon punch with the guy, but they all seem to actually connect a good amount of the time. And aether is an amazing recovery when used right, as is his side b. His jab beats almost anything, it's just too good. And his air attacks are also insanely powerful. Oh and you can't star KO him for anything, or get him far off enough off the sides. Gotta gimp him.

Sonic is much faster. Ike's too slow! He racks damage up on Ike quicker as long as Ike doesn't get in a couple of hits (lets face it, those couple are enough). Sonic sometimes gets too predictable, and that's a problem I used to have with Ike. As soon as a good Ike knows your sonic, you can get owned. Especially with that jab. Rack damage, connect with a fsmash, then get ready to fair him off the stage for a kill.

I used to have a lot of trouble with Ike's forward B. The best way is to run straight at him while he's charging up, make him think you're going for a grab or dash attack. Then, shield cancel your run right when you think he's going to release. He hits your shield and gets lag (his forward B always gets lag when it connects or when you dodge or shield), ample opportunity for you to grab. Repeat for those spammy ike's. I know this matchup well (i think) since my friend mains ike, and i gotta say that sonic is better. A lot of you guys are still discovering a bunch of stuff for sonic, while Ike's stuff hasn't really gotten an overhaul at all. There's so many diff. ways to play sonic, and not so many for ike. But i might be biased. Sorry ike mains..

the majority of ike's smashes have limited use, and find use only when the opponent kinda has to land in certain ways, like when they are trying to get back on stage and he baits things. in other words, mindgames. limited mindgames.

 

[Chis]

So its conclusion time Ike and Sonic mains.

 

[Kinzer]

You sure you wanna declare that when the majority of them are probably all @ Genesis?

*Sigh*

 

[chaoechidna]

my bad guys about the matchup discussion. Sonic is a better character than ike, and has more potential too, seeing as new techniques are being discovered all the time while ike is left hanging. And i think he's mid tier, but only cuz everyone's worked so hard to get him there while all the other characters are mid tier due to design rather than just skills, like sonic. That said, sonic still sucks, but if you're good with sonic you own thru mindgames more than anything. His mind games make him mid tier.

 

[Jim Morrison]

New techniques are barely being discovered, maybe a few new tactics, but other than it's just perfecting technical things like DDP. Also, Sonic is overrated ATM.

 

[chaoechidna]

tactics is what i meant, sorry. not sure about overrated, his mind game potential makes him pretty mid tier-y, imo. But thank the sonics on these boards for that, without them, he'd still be low. Crap character with really good players picking him = mid tier i guess.

 

[Chis]

You sure you wanna declare that when the majority of them are probably all @ Genesis?

*Sigh*

Darn, forgot about that lol

 

[TwinkleToes]

New techniques are barely being discovered, maybe a few new tactics, but other than it's just perfecting technical things like DDP. Also, Sonic is overrated ATM.

Sonic has always been overrated by his fans and underrated by everyone else. This is nothing new.

 

[Chis]

So now gen is over, conclusion time? :D

Mighty interesting sig you got there TwinkleToes...

 

[TwinkleToes]

Haha, in my experience interesting can be a bad or good thing.

 

[Chis]

Moving on:

Is Sonic better then Sheik? Rediscussion I guess.

Sheik

From post 590# to 753#

Decision: Maybe

 

[Tristan_win]

Are you really going to argue with the sheik forum about if sonic is better?

...I mean REALLY?

Let me fastfoward the events that's just about to take place, again.

"Sonic is fast and has more easy to use killing moves then sheik and his upper tier match ups are better"
~ Sonic user

"Although sheik has a guaranteed ftilt into usmash combo that can be easily used on most of the cast, a chain that can cause massive damage very quickly in a short term zone play that in some cases can halt a opponent completely, hypothetical foot stool combos that can do massive damage on select match ups and can put against any character with the exception of Ice climbers, Pikachu and have with a fairly solid answer to anything people do I decide to ignore all of this and say that sheik killing power isn't that bad and that most of her match ups are clearly 60 to 40 against sheik beside fox and Gano"
~sheik user who doesn't realize how good sheik really is

"This is a stupid argument SBR already put sonic higher then sheik what's the point to talk about this?"
~sonic user

"The SBR made the tier list on the current meta game it doesn't mean that sheik will always be lower then Sonic, the fact is there's isn't many people using sheik in tounys and even less using her correctly"
~One of the top 5 sheik user who are using her correctly to some degree.

The Results
89 to 11 vote Sonic is better then Sheik
Voters
Sonic mains: 90
Sheik mains: 10

Fixed much?

My thoughts, to put it simply I think sonic is at the correct place in the tier list and is now done. He wont be advancing anymore then where he is now while sheik on the other hand could easily jump up where peach is if not higher.

 

[Browny]

Someones angry about something...

also there is no voting involved in this thread >_< were also not arguing, debating is more accurate since we dont have an initial point we are starting from

 

[Tristan_win]

Someones angry about something...

also there is no voting involved in this thread >_< were also not arguing, debating is more accurate since we dont have an initial point we are starting from

I'm not too fond of being past by sonic on the tier list, also it's like 9am and I haven't slept....until after this post.

 

[ROOOOY!]

In my view, they're both in the right positions for now, so in that sense I'm saying that Sonic is better than Sheik. I still think both characters have the potential to rise to about where Fox is though.
At least we don't have LOLICECLIMBERS to deal with <3 I understand that even So-Po can chaingrab til about 40% or higher?

 

[East]

In my view, they're both in the right positions for now, so in that sense I'm saying that Sonic is better than Sheik. I still think both characters have the potential to rise to about where Fox is though.
At least we don't have LOLICECLIMBERS to deal with <3 I understand that even So-Po can chaingrab til about 40% or higher?

lol, yeah it's a little disheartening that we get chaingrabbed by 1 ice climber.

The only sonic's I've played have been gimmicky, and while I know that sonic has a plethora of tricks up his... well he doesn't have sleeves but you get the point.

I should perhaps correct Tristan's statement. Sheik does not have a guaranteed ftilt to tipper up smash on most of the cast. She has a guaranteed ftilt to tipper upsmash on every character in the game. Again, from what I know sonic has an at least semi-descent gimp game [as does sheik] he doesn't have the most powerful smashes in the game, and it can sometimes be hard to kill [as with sheik]. His speed is a great tool as well [as is sheiks].

I'm going to call this one "No" because if you're even then you're not better than them.

 

[Chis]

This is not a voting thread.

 

[-Mars-]

Reasons why I feel Sheik is better.

Better kill moves.

Faster moveset......by far.

Needles are gay.

Ftilt gives her pretty much one of the few true combo games in Brawl. Even if she can't lock a certain character(like Sonic), she can ftilt into nair or ftilt into pretty much anything.

Decayed ftilt gives her scary KO power.

She has a couple ranged moves which allows her to compete with characters like Marth and Snake.

Crazy OoS options. Sheik can pretty much punish anything OoS.

DACUS.

Chain stilll has unekplored potential.

Also, i'm not one of those people that think Sonic is a bad character or anything.......I just happen to think that Sheik is really good in this game. I think the main reason that Sonic is above Sheik at this current point is that she has no tournament representation and Sonic mains .......well they **** which is a credit to you guys. I would add more but I have to take off for work. I'll be back later.

 

[Camalange]

Are you really going to argue with the sheik forum about if sonic is better?

...I mean REALLY?

Yeah, why not? Actually, it's more of a discussion or a debate, but you seem to just enjoy to argue. All I see going on here is the POTENTIAL she has, and we're out here placing and putting steaks on the table.

I'm not going to make any reference to the "quotes" you brought up because I rarely visit this thread and you could've just made them up, so whatever.

My thoughts, to put it simply I think sonic is at the correct place in the tier list and is now done. He wont be advancing anymore then where he is now while sheik on the other hand could easily jump up where peach is if not higher.

You know what? I agree. Well, I disagree about Shiek being as good as Peach, but I don't think Sonic is going to rise anymore either, I think he's going to drop, but ya know what else? For the time being, Sonic is still proving he's better than Shiek.

Sure, it's a possibility that Shiek has the potential to overcome Sonic, but how can we simply just base things on potential? It's silly. It's like saying McCain is a better president than Obama, even though he didn't become president but he had the ability to be.

Sonic mains on the other hand have numerous dedicated and skilled players (candidates? lol) repping his name in tournament (government? lol bad anology is bad, just trying to get a point across)

I'm not too fond of being past by sonic on the tier list, also it's like 9am and I haven't slept....until after this post.

So you're going to argue because you're butt hurt and restless? Good call. I wouldn't mind so much if I saw reasons as to why Shiek would be better, or tournament results.

Also, i'm not one of those people that think Sonic is a bad character or anything.......I just happen to think that Sheik is really good in this game. I think the main reason that Sonic is above Sheik at this current point is that she has no tournament representation and Sonic mains .......well they **** which is a credit to you guys. I would add more but I have to take off for work. I'll be back later.

At least this guy brought up points and gave credit where credit is due. Thank you mah dood.

 

[Zankoku]

For the most part I agree with Marsulas. Sheik is a more focused character with true setups through her ftilt and a viable, fast projectile capable of dealing respectable damage. Though Sonic has certain attacks with better range or priority, most of Sheik's attacks have a superior startup time. Her recovery is not as far reaching but it can grab the ledge without threat besides the obvious edgehogging (chain). Her DACUS makes her usmash a somewhat usable mixup to KO with. I feel that Sonic has significantly more mixup options than Sheik, but not enough proper followups to capitalize on successful hits to the fullest. He doesn't have to work quite as hard as Sheik to get into an opponent's zone, but just doesn't seem to punish as hard.

Sonic overall seems to be a solid character just because of his top-notch movement speed and wide array of mixups and gimmicks, but I wish he could actually roll with the hits just a little better than hoping the opponent guesses your next action wrong.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I was talking with KRD earlier about the Ftilt thing. I THOUGHT Sheik could Ftilt to tipper Usmash anyone but he said you can jump out with some characters. Alot of our discussion was based on who could kill earlier. It's always been my understanding that Sheik basically had a 2 frame kill move. lol

 

[Kinzer]

2-frame kill move?

I'd love to hear that.

...On-topic? Oh dear lord you cannot expect me to participate hardly again, not with all the bias last time, and to think things would change, that's laughable.

 

[-Mars-]

I was talking with KRD earlier about the Ftilt thing. I THOUGHT Sheik could Ftilt to tipper Usmash anyone but he said you can jump out with some characters. Alot of our discussion was based on who could kill earlier. It's always been my understanding that Sheik basically had a 2 frame kill move. lol

Who is KRD? No you can't.

2-frame kill move?

I'd love to hear that.

...On-topic? Oh dear lord you cannot expect me to participate hardly again, not with all the bias last time, and to think things would change, that's laughable.

Well ftilt is frame 4 so in essence it's a frame 4 kill move.

 

[Kinzer]

The KRDSonic. http://www.smashboards.com/member.php?u=111192

Not sure if he actually plays Sonic (now or ever), but that's who he is referring to.

Also about that FTilt thing.

Okay then.

 

[<π]

to further explain the hitstun of ftilt and many other moves is percent based. once you get to higher percents it combos into itself and can combo into other moves like upsmash as well.

 

[Browny]

Better kill moves.

How so? Note the 's' at end of moves. No one is going to deny that her usmash is more powerful than any of sonics KO moves but im quite sure the remaining of Sonics KO moves (fsmash, dsmash, bair, uair, dair sweetspot) will kill earlier than any of sheiks other KO moves.

Another thing Sonic has over sheik is options... and lots of them. this isnt some unquantifiable 'mixup' attribute Im rating here, but in any given situation Sonic always has plenty of ways to either space, retreat, recover or attack. Say for example you as sheik are right up against the ledge and snake is just walking towards you in ftilt range. what can you do? you can try to attack him and get ftilted, shield it and get knocked off the edge into snakes ridiculous ledge pressure game or just jump away. In the same situation Sonic can easily avoid damage by springing out of the situation, spinshot to go over snakes head, side b into snake, use invincible frames then JC it over his head to not get punished or shield it and get knocked onto the ledge where his options are considerably more safer than sheiks.

Things like this just keep on affecting how matches end up. lets say sheik/Sonic are caught reasonably far offstage by something such as an MK dsmash at the ledge. Does sheik have any safe options to avoid MK with his very wide variety of gimping options? Sonic has 4 unique recovery methods which render him quite safe and he should be able to return to the stage taking minimal %'s, and rarely get gimped. Sheik may be able to get back to the stage more often than not, but its only a matter of time until she is caught in a place where she has 1 or no options which will cause the loss of a stock.

Options DO NOT = mixups, and you have to consider them as a very important attribute. these options seem to be very commonly mistaken for approaching mixups which are good, but when it comes to 'not getting hit' which to me entails recovery, projectiles, speed (movement) and range I think Sonic wins overall, taking into account the amount of options and weighing up the usefulness of each one. Sonics may not be strong or reliable like some of sheiks are, but does it in sheer numbers, more safely.

 

[-Mars-]

How so? Note the 's' at end of moves. No one is going to deny that her usmash is more powerful than any of sonics KO moves but im quite sure the remaining of Sonics KO moves (fsmash, dsmash, bair, uair, dair sweetspot) will kill earlier than any of sheiks other KO moves.

I just tested Sonics KO moves. His fsmash(which is quite slow by the way) obviously kills earlier. As for his other moves.......none of them killed at 120% on Mario with no DI. So if you're referring to uair at the top of the ceiling and bair offstage then whatever but those moves you mentioned kill at around the same percentage as Sheiks bair, uair, nair, and dsmash.

So yea you would be wrong my friend. Not to mention the fact that nair is a frame 3 move, dsmash is frame 4, and bair hits on frame 5; making them viable as KO options OoS.

Another thing Sonic has over sheik is options... and lots of them. this isnt some unquantifiable 'mixup' attribute Im rating here, but in any given situation Sonic always has plenty of ways to either space, retreat, recover or attack. Say for example you as sheik are right up against the ledge and snake is just walking towards you in ftilt range. what can you do? you can try to attack him and get ftilted, shield it and get knocked off the edge into snakes ridiculous ledge pressure game or just jump away. In the same situation Sonic can easily avoid damage by springing out of the situation, spinshot to go over snakes head, side b into snake, use invincible frames then JC it over his head to not get punished or shield it and get knocked onto the ledge where his options are considerably more safer than sheiks.

Uh........throw a needle lmao.

Things like this just keep on affecting how matches end up. lets say sheik/Sonic are caught reasonably far offstage by something such as an MK dsmash at the ledge. Does sheik have any safe options to avoid MK with his very wide variety of gimping options? Sonic has 4 unique recovery methods which render him quite safe and he should be able to return to the stage taking minimal %'s, and rarely get gimped. Sheik may be able to get back to the stage more often than not, but its only a matter of time until she is caught in a place where she has 1 or no options which will cause the loss of a stock.

No one said anything about Sheik having a better recovery than Sonic......but she doesn't have a bad recovery. So yea Sonic has a better recovery than Sheik.

Options DO NOT = mixups, and you have to consider them as a very important attribute. these options seem to be very commonly mistaken for approaching mixups which are good, but when it comes to 'not getting hit' which to me entails recovery, projectiles, speed (movement) and range I think Sonic wins overall, taking into account the amount of options and weighing up the usefulness of each one. Sonics may not be strong or reliable like some of sheiks are, but does it in sheer numbers, more safely.

I don't think it matters all that much because with how fast her moveset is......her pressure game is very good.

But yea I agree that Sonic has a better recovery and better mixup options......that's about it.

 

[Kinzer]

No one said anything about Sheik having a better recovery than Sonic......but she doesn't have a bad recovery. So yea Sonic has a better recovery than Sheik.

But yea I agree that Sonic has a better recovery and better mixup options......that's about it.

I can't speak on DJB's behalf but I think he was talking more about options/versatility then recovery... then again Sonic has that covered too so that could get confusing.

so MUs don't play any role?

I'm well aware of ICs being a something close to if not a "LOL" MU, but that's just one, how about throughout the whole cast?

I mean that BTW, I really don't care about how you can make Ganon's face die or how you raep Bowser (no offense to any of you reading this, it's just that he is so uncommonly seen that it might as well fall in this category, I'm not here to lie/sugarcoat), I'm talking about MUs that matter, to some extent at worst.

 

[-Mars-]

I can't speak on DJB's behalf but I think he was talking more about options/versatility then recovery... then again Sonic has that covered too so that could get confusing.

so MUs don't play any role?

I'm well aware of ICs being a something close to if not a "LOL" MU, but that's just one, how about throughout the whole cast?

I mean that BTW, I really don't care about how you can make Ganon's face die or how you raep Bowser (no offense to any of you reading this, it's just that he is so uncommonly seen that it might as well fall in this category, I'm not here to lie/sugarcoat), I'm talking about MUs that matter, to some extent at worst.

Ice Climbers are a hard counter. Lucario, Kirby, MK, G&W, and Pikachu can be difficult.

She has a guaranteed grab release into DACUS on MK that kills at like 85%. Mk is hard for everyone pretty much but Sheik does have some things within the mechanics of the game that she can exploit on MK.

You could always just press down b if you ever ran into Ice Climbers anyways......

Edit: Sheik also hard counters several characters in the game.........can Sonic say that?

 

[Kinzer]

Cool.

Now to be fair, Sonic MU's are... slightly below average, though it's not as bad as I might be making it sound.

Sure Sonic doesn't even have any MUs that could ever go past 6:4 his advantage at the rate his metagame is right now... but at least his raep MUs don't appear to be any worse than 65:35, 7:3 if you really wanna push it.

That's a bit balanced I suppose, compared to say maybe Donkey Bong who has a wide spectrum of MUs (no thanks to D3), and still a bit more brighter looking than say... any of the bottom tiers' MU ratios.

Also we already know Zelda/Shiek > Sonic, we're just discussing the character/s on their own. Mhm.

 

[-Mars-]

Ok so I don't see where you were going when you brought up the matchups. Sheik has one matchup that is horrible for her. Other than that the rest of her matchups are manageable.

Sheik does better vs. Marth and Wario than Sonic does.....I dunno in the grand scheme of things I think they both do fairly well as far as MU's go so I think that aspect is pretty even.

Oh and down-b is part of Sheiks moveset so you honestly can't just ignore the option that she has of making some of her bad matchups go away with the press of a button. S*** in fact if you want to keep bringing up Sonics' "options" Then Sheik has one of the more powerful "options" in the game. Mhm.

TBH you guys haven't given me much to support Sonic being better than Sheik. I'm not even displaying character bias here because I would readily agree with you if this was Zelda we were discussing but...................Sheik is just better than Sonic. Not by much granted, but she is. Prove me wrong.

Like I said you have to put Sonic above her on the tier list at this current point strictly based off of tournament placings.

 

[Kinzer]

I did say it was just one, I wanted to know a general consensus of the others. :/

Agreed.

We're just going by the False SBR, please don't get mad @ us. :/

There's a reason for that... I'm scarred to say it. D;

There's also a reason for that to, however unlike my last number I can say that Sonic has to be getting results for a reason, whereas Sheik falls short... why? Because of that raep MU against ICs? That's one possibility, but why else? It CERTAINLY can't be the amount of people who play Sonic because there are as many scrubs who fall short with Sonic as there are the exceptionals (I fall into this category) who do alright, then there are the pros (Shugo, Shado, blah blah blah not gonna meatride just giving examples).

Now what about Shiek, hmm? I can understand maybe not having as big of a fanbase, but then there's a bigger focus within a smaller community, so why am I still not seeing any results even with the effort I see/can see people give off?