Is Sonic Mid-tier material? Is he better than Bowser again? (Read the OP)

[Kataefi]

Oh I see djbrowny... I didn't know you were explicitly talking about priority in the air. Range-wise her fair is quite poor and is often destroyed by fairs like that of Marth's, Peach's etc..., but as chis said it's fast. The point is to a) bait an attack and punish with it or b) beat them to the punch. The latter works best imo.

Sonic is beating sheik in the tourney scene iirc... I'm basing this entirely on Ankoku's list. Sheik has awful matchups against pikachu and supposedly the ICs, but transformations are all you need here. Sheik is harder to counterpick than most think. Armada has been doing more than extremely well at major European tournaments as solo Sheik.

 

[Kinzer]

I don't even see Sheik, but then maybe I just don't pay attention to her results.

Although I gotta ask if Sheik is ever backed up by Zelda in tourneys.

Also DK is a @#$%ing buff Primape, and Sonic is just a scrawny/skinny hedgehog. When you apply Brawl physics, of course DK is going to hit swordsman out of their attacks. But then again this game isn't perfect so it's reasonable.

If we had real world physics, DK would be dead faster than you could say "yodaleyehooooooooooo!"

 

[rathy Aro]

Before I say anything, why would you discuss zelda and sheik separately especially for something like this? To do so is to assume that sheik chooses to just cut out her upB from her moveset and that makes no sense when we're talking about who is better considering all of their options.

Sheik is generally known to have bad priority. Her range is decent (ftilt and bair), but not impressive. What's more is important is that she has the fastest attack speed in the game and she's fairly quick on top of that. I rarely if ever see sheik's placing. If you want to see where a good sheik places in large tournies I'd say look at light's results or better yet...... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQ6_0AOy2iw&feature=related Okay this isn't realistic, but I had to post it.

I feel like sheik should be higher than where she is right now so I have to say I think that sonic is definitely lower. Sheik has needles which make for an insanely good punishment tool (why does everyone keep saying camping?).

Her ftilt is more than just a tool to lock, it combos into just about everything including kill moves and I mean TRUE combos. If a really good sheik could harness decay and ftilt well killing would not be a huge problem anymore since she has a true ftilt to upsmash combo on every character and if ftilt is properly decayed and upsmash is not this can kill at percents like 80-100 depending on weight, di, etc. And this is insane considering her racking abilities. She's really good at punishing slight mistakes with lots of damage over a very short period of time.

As for how she does against the top tier. I feel like she does okay, especially against mk as compared to the majority of the cast. She has a guaranteed kill on him at like 80 percent from grab (I have no idea how hard it is to grab a good mk =/) and she can rack decently well on him. She's one of the few characters that can keep up with his speed and mobility. I think that matchup is pretty close of both players are really good. She does okay against snake, but not too good. Does well against DDD and can just switch to zelda anyway. I think she beats falco. I think with proper chain control she beats game&watch.

In terms of people who give her problems some of them can be handled by switching to zelda (well <3 says the matchup's not that bad anyway, but I'm waiting for vids). Marth beats both of them pretty bad. Olimar too. There certainly are no unwinnable matchups between the two of them.

edit: Whether or not the sonic boards believe this, for a low tier sonic is popular. In general, sheik is severely underplayed. Its really unfair to compare tourny results.

And stop comparing marth's fair to sheik's fair. Its mean. Marth's fair ***** sheik's no matter how fast it is. Range is relevant. lol

edit2: Ankoku and Villi both use zelda and ryoko too if he counts. And I'm pretty sure everyone but the most prideful plays zelda if they have to fight ICs.

 

[Kataefi]

Aside from DM who goes solo Zelda (a reeeeeally scary one at that >.<)... I can't actually think of many tourney-viable players who don't use the combination in tourneys.

Rathy Aro add Snakeee to your list of players as well.

 

[Chis]

I go by the tier list, and there for they are separate.

 

[Kinzer]

Why?

Because Sheik is one spot above Ike.

Also have you heard of AznFinesse Kat? I don't blame you if you haven't since almost (if not) nobody from Vegassmash actually comes to Smashboards (or at least frequently) except me, but he went all Zelda on me. Granted he lost that one match... and then switch to Mr. G&W, but yeah there ya go, that's one person I know that went one whole match as Zelda by herself.

But seriously now Sheik and Zelda had their own spots in MAY-LAY! and Brawl, so why can't we just do both of them separately? Not everybody likes to learn/play two characters. Granted it does severely limit the player but then again it's not impossible.

Also dis mutha-@#$%ing popularity card! Seriously.

Let me tell you this. If Sonic is popular, this would mean more people would pick him up of course, thus more potential good people. Why is it that when I take a good look at it only a few people actually do want to bother playing with Sonic let alone capable of placing with him? It's because he sucks, yes I said it and I admit it, I can't deny that he has his problems. Furthermore if everybody was picking up Sonic they would know how to fight him, but then don't. Not even the people who are die-hard can honestly say they consistently get everything down, and if they can't I am sure as Hell nobody else has any idea. If people knew how to fight Sonic, this would mean people would find counters, but no, that's not really the case (but it still appleis somewhat so bleh) I can say the same thing with an even bigger extreme that Sheik/Zelda as their own character are actually tourney viable, so why is it that nobody has arisen to the challenge and have placed with both? You want to talk technicality/difficulty to pick up? Sheik on her own is about an average learning curve, and she happens to be a somewhat playable character with average reward at worst. Sonic on the other hand is one of the more difficult characters to master and has average reward at best.

...Maybe if either characters were actually good, it would make people play them like MK/Snake, but they aren't, so please don't tell me Sonic is (more) popular because he is good, because he isn't. he is just as bad/only slightly better/worse than *insert middle-tier character and below here*, which it is seriously not enough to skew off @#$%. You can get all the random fanboys in the world and it wouldn't mean @#$% if they sucked as much as a vacuum cleaner.

 

[Kataefi]

@Kinzer - The whole Sheik/Zelda duo notion is a hot topic actually. I find it really fascinating.

There was absolutely no situation or matchup in Melee where Zelda was better than Sheik. The duo was solely represented by Sheik because tactically that was the best choice in every circumstance.

It's very different in Brawl. Sheik requires setups and accurate ftilt decay to KO now, that or she can gimp. Her options are limited from Melee. She will struggle to kill if her opponent is wise to these aspects of her character, something Zelda can easily take care of. Sheik falls into the category of 'racks damage fast, but lacks that oomph to finish her opponent off'. I'm suspecting characters like Falco, R.O.B, Sonic, Peach amongst others I can't name off the top of my head also fall into this category. Transformation basically takes Sheik, eliminates her speed, but essentially gives her strong, fast and ranged KO moves almost on par with characters like Ike and Ganon. Bare in mind Transformation is a tricky move to pull off, but can be jump boosted to make it more viable.

In this way, unless Sheik is very disadvantaged, she actually has a decent chance at getting a good percent or stock lead on her opponent coupled with Zelda. You can play very tactically with the duo - Zelda's a better character on a stock lead because she's difficult to approach, and one would have to approach her in this situation, that or if your opponent has a very good approach or baits well, you can be counter-aggressive with Sheik.

Then you have solo matchups where one character does much better than the other, so it's better to stay as that character.

 

[RenegadeRaven]

I understand discussing Sheik/Zelda in tier list discussions. But I don't see the point in match up discussions, since it does nothing for the ratios.

I can see Sheiks play style being similar to Sonics? It seems she relies on spacing and using her ground speed and range to punish the opponent. Sheik seems like she'd be able to do it better, because of her attack speed and range.

The only difference is that Sonic is faster and can punish more whiffed attacks.

But that's just my speculation after messing around with Sheik for a minute or two.

EDIT: Also, switching clears the move decay right?

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Accept that they are a combination. You don't get to deny them the right to switch. However we aren't TECHNICALLY talking about Zelda. I feel if we were talking about both of them then they would be higher up on the tier list and not in queue for our discussion. And Ren. This isn't a matchup discussion lol.

Yeah. It clears move decay.

Oh and Kata. Sonics (or at least I) don't have trouble approaching Zeldas. We're quick enough to almost negate her Brickwalling ability. If Zelda gets baited she usually has enough dead time for us to deliver an Fsmash which is usually fresh based on hitting Sheik on the ground is fairly tough. I think Sheik brickwalls Sonic WAY better than Zelda.

Then AGAIN I guess we're not discussing the matchup between them. I dropped Zelda when Brawl came out so I guess some vids of Zelda's brickwalling ability would be nice?

 

[RenegadeRaven]

And Ren. This isn't a matchup discussion lol.

... I know... >_>

Oh and Kata. Sonics (or at least I) don't have trouble approaching Zeldas. We're quick enough to almost negate her Brickwalling ability. If Zelda gets baited she usually has enough dead time for us to deliver an Fsmash which is usually fresh based on hitting Sheik on the ground is fairly tough. I think Sheik brickwalls Sonic WAY better than Zelda.

... But do you? =P

 

[Chis]

Terios, Kataefi has fought Sonics before. But this isn't a match up thread so...

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

... But do you? =P

Umm...Yah. You should have kept reading.

Then AGAIN I guess we're not discussing the matchup between them. I dropped Zelda when Brawl came out so I guess some vids of Zelda's brickwalling ability would be nice?

That's why I asked for vids of Zelda being able to brickwall people. I only mentioned Sonic because he's all I've ever used against Zelda so I was mentioning that because it made me unaware of Zelda's actual ability to brickwall due to Sonic's ability to basically NEGATE brickwalls.

Capiche?

 

[Kinzer]

To be honest... her brickwall isn't that troublesome.

Outside Falcon, I don't think Zelda on her own has any advantage better than 6/4 (but we all know how beleivable these numbers can be, no matter how much they're backed up...), and there's good reason for that.

Nobody is going to refute me when I say Din's Fire is but only a minor convenience over some opponents. Let's say we're starting the match, it will never be used more than twice depending on the opponent, because they should either be SHAD approaching if they can't make her approach, or firin' their proghectuhieyulsuh! (that's not, it's not a lazah!.) You can probably also get away with approaching from the ground and Spotdodging/shielding when necessary.

It gets better at close range, she has a-

WAIT A MINUTE DA****, THIS IS SUPPOSE TO BE ABOUT SHEIK! WE CAN/WILL/SHOULD COVER ZELDA SOMETIME LATER, BUT NOT NOW!

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Zelda is a part of Sheik and should be taken into account. The fact is we can say that Sheik can't kill but with a simple DownB that goes away. If we intend to cover Sheik, Sheik/Zelda, Zelda all separately I think that it should be explicitly stated as we ARE going up the tier list. It'd be silly to just say, Oh. Since the SBR doesn't vote for them as a combined character...... If we continue up the tier list we'd never view them as a combined character and she/they wouldn't be approached in a fair and objective manner.

 

[Chis]

So does anyone knows how she does match up wise?

 

[Kinzer]

Sheik on her own somewhat tourney viable. I heard she has a couple of 70/30s here and there, but this is considering we're not adding Zelda to the equation (which we aren't yet), so it's not all that bad.

 

[Afro Boy2000]

Sonic is not better than Sheik

 

[Kinzer]

^^

Thank you, come again sometime later.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Looks like I am the only who even bothered to think about posting in this thread on the behalf of Sheik.

Sheik>Sonic

Why?
Chain ***** Sonic in EVERY possible way. I bad Sheik can get one stock ahead and chain camp the whole match. Sonic can't do ****. (I also believe that the chain cancels Spring.)
Sheik also has a good f-tilt lock time on Sonic. To take that further she can Swan combo him quite well too. Her Needles stops any kind of spinning approach. Her Bair out prioritizes as well. Sheik has a frame two jab that should make a Sonic scared cuz he can't beat her in speed.

All and all... I see Sonic failing against Sheik. To win this all you need is some damage, f-tilt lock, DSmash finisher, try and get damage at the ledge, chain lock at ledge/FU combo to finish him off. Then just chain camp.
There you go.. Sheik wins.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Post ignored as soon as you said Chain ***** Sonic. You should really read the OP.

THIS IS NOT A MATCHUP DISCUSSION.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Hey guys.

Sonic can't break chain.
Sonic can't outprioritize any attack in the game, not even Pit's Wings of Icarus.
Sonic has no good match-ups.
Sheik outclasses Sonic in speed, recovery, match-ups, staying power, damage racking, killing, combos, aerials, throws, and sexuality.

Am I doin it rite?

I don't even think putting 'NOT A ****ING MATCH-UP DISCUSSION' in the OP would stop people coming in righteously with I can strongly presume little to no experience against competant Sonics saying how much their character ***** Sonic because of priority reasons the accuser probably is clueless about.

I hate these boards so much.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Post ignored as soon as you said Chain ***** Sonic. You should really read the OP.

THIS IS NOT A MATCHUP DISCUSSION.

In that case.
WTF is this post? Some poor excuse to try and make Sonic seem good?

 

[Jim Morrison]

EDIT: No feeding the ****ed troll.

 

[Chis]

You know savior, if you don't have anything intelligent to contribute, then don't post. Simple.

 

[Tenki]

h0w 2 riid??/

on a similarly related note, spring goes through chain.

no u.

In that case.
WTF is this post? Some poor excuse to try and make Sonic seem good?

This isn't a matchup thread (Sheik vs Sonic), but a thread trying to justify whether or not the characters above Sonic are in fact supposed to be above Sonic on the tier list. This means their overall performance and matchups, among other things.

Of course, some characters previously deemed above Sonic might actually be below him. And some characters that are currently at one spot may also move higher.

 

[sniperworm]

I honestly don't think Sonic is better than Sheik (I love the idea of this thread by the way, I've been following it since around when it began). They're similar characters in that they're both fast characters that have trouble killing, they're both opportunists (aka thrive on punishing), but I think that Sheik is just more in tune with Brawl.

The first big difference is that Sheik can use needles to force approaches. Sonic cannot force approaches. In Brawl this is a big deal because generally stuff isn't safe on block, so the aggressor tends to be at a disadvantage. Besides that, needles result in some free damage that involves almost zero risk for Sheik (something that Sonic cannot replicate).

The second big difference is that Sheik doesn't really have problems killing. While it's true that most of Sheik's moves don't KO well, decayed Ftilt to tipper Usmash is a guaranteed combo at KO percents against the entire cast (with appropriate decay on Ftilt obviously). It should be noted that Sheik's tipper Usmash is a very strong kill move (stronger than Zelda's dreaded Usmash) and Ftilt is a 4 frame move with pretty good range. That and Sheik also has access to DownB (aka Zelda) should the opponent go beyond decayed Ftilt to Usmash range or if Ftilt isn't properly decayed. Sonic has no reliable way to land his killing moves (Fsmash, Bair, Dsmash).

The one thing that might be able to sway this in your favor is recovery. Recovery is huge in a game where almost everyone can make it back to the stage from anything that doesn't kill. Sheik's recovery is unusually limited, while Sonic has lots of options and can travel very far (aka Sonic has a significantly better recovery).

I dunno, that's what I can think of right now. GO SONIC!!!!

 

[ShadowLink84]

I am bored. Which has lead to the following/

Looks like I am the only who even bothered to think about posting in this thread on the behalf of Sheik.

Really? Looking at the past pages I would have to disagree.

Sheik>Sonic

Okay how so.

Why?

he can read my mind.

Chain ***** Sonic in EVERY possible way. I bad Sheik can get one stock ahead and chain camp the whole match. Sonic can't do ****. (I also believe that the chain cancels Spring.)

The chain cannot cancel anything because it does not interact with projectiles. Which is what Sonics Spring is classified according to the game.
Try it. you ge thit.

As for chain ****** Sonic. Play better Sonics. I'll just powershield it and then dash attack you.
Chain camping. It is more effective under a platform but even then it can be difficult to perform because Sonic is so insanely fast and has a good dash attack to use for breaking through the chain.
Considernig the time it takes to put away, you cannot exactly use any o of your other options.

Sheik also has a good f-tilt lock time on Sonic.

We have a good grab game and can space you so getting the Ftilt lock is ahrd. plus we can Di and spring away.

To take that further she can Swan combo him quite well too.

We can ASC combo.

Her Needles stops any kind of spinning approach.

Spins are not used to approach they are used to punish or harass the opponent where they are in a bad situation.

Her Bair out prioritizes as well.

Sonics bair vs Sheik's bair=Sonic wins
Sonics Fair vs Sheiks Bair=Sonic wins (need to time it correctly otherwise bair wins).
Sonics Nair vs Sheiks Bair= Sheik win
Sonics Uair vs Sheiks bair= Sonic wins
Soniss Dair vs Sheik Bair= Sheik wins.


So we win half the time.

Sheik has a frame two jab that should make a Sonic scared cuz he can't beat her in speed.

We have invincibility frames on thre eof our moves which make Sheik scared cause she cant break through invincible moves.

All and all... I see Sonic failing against Sheik.

Really? I feel she loses to Sonic.
She got the double stuff from spacies in melee, it makes sense a furry gives her the stuff in this game as well.

To win this all you need is some damage, ASC combo, Bair finisher, try to get damage at the ledge, go for spring gimps, then run away when you are at higher percents. See? Easy.

I concur.
As others ahve said this is not a MU discussion and even if it were, you would be wrong.

 

[Kinzer]

I honestly don't think Sonic is better than Sheik (I love the idea of this thread by the way, I've been following it since around when it began). They're similar characters in that they're both fast characters that have trouble killing, they're both opportunists (aka thrive on punishing), but I think that Sheik is just more in tune with Brawl.

The first big difference is that Sheik can use needles to force approaches. Sonic cannot force approaches. In Brawl this is a big deal because generally stuff isn't safe on block, so the aggressor tends to be at a disadvantage. Besides that, needles result in some free damage that involves almost zero risk for Sheik (something that Sonic cannot replicate).

The second big difference is that Sheik doesn't really have problems killing. While it's true that most of Sheik's moves don't KO well, decayed Ftilt to tipper Usmash is a guaranteed combo at KO percents against the entire cast (with appropriate decay on Ftilt obviously). It should be noted that Sheik's tipper Usmash is a very strong kill move (stronger than Zelda's dreaded Usmash) and Ftilt is a 4 frame move with pretty good range. That and Sheik also has access to DownB (aka Zelda) should the opponent go beyond decayed Ftilt to Usmash range or if Ftilt isn't properly decayed. Sonic has no reliable way to land his killing moves (Fsmash, Bair, Dsmash).

The one thing that might be able to sway this in your favor is recovery. Recovery is huge in a game where almost everyone can make it back to the stage from anything that doesn't kill. Sheik's recovery is unusually limited, while Sonic has lots of options and can travel very far (aka Sonic has a significantly better recovery).

I dunno, that's what I can think of right now. GO SONIC!!!!

This is quite late but I like this post.

First, I wanna say that you don't have to say that Zelda/Sheik are a better character than Sonic, nobody can refute this really. That's why we're just talking about Sheik on her own (and okay, maybe you can use Zelda to switch back decay on the next opponents stock but I dunno since that might take time).

So while you're right that Sheik can force an approach, how good will it do when the opponent can return a favor? Sonic is only one of the few characters who really will be approaching a majority of the time unless our opponent either has a bad projectile game (example, PowerSuit Samus) or has none at all (Falcon) where we might get a break/rest a little bit easier. As you said in this game usually the aggressor is at disadvantage, but how often will Sheik be able to play such a style?

Where I'm getting at is how does she fair against the whole roster? On her own, I can't see why she wouldn't be tourney viable, even if she has a couple of 70/30s, am I right? She might be better off because even though her spectrum of MUs against the whole roster is broader, she actually has advantageous MUs to go with her bad MUs whereas Sonic is just a bunch of 50-50s to 60-40s not his favor. -_-

This post was well-thought out, thank you.

 

[saviorslegacy]

You know savior, if you don't have anything intelligent to contribute, then don't post. Simple.

I did post intelligent answers. Maybe the Sonic boards just need an intelligent troll to take care of this... whine thread?
I gave my info and I was flamed. -_-


I'm sorry but I have seen a lot of threads out there fail. This one is up there. -_-


To ShadowLink:
Half of what you posted was usless. 1/3 of what was left from that half was false (or you didn't explout the entirety) and the rest has some fact to back it up.

I don't feel like waisting my life on such a meaningless task as arguing with you, but I will point out one thing.

Sonics bair vs Sheik's bair=Sonic wins (Sheiks comes out faster though)
Sonics Fair vs Sheiks Bair=Sonic wins (Sheiks has more range and thus we are safe if we retreat our Bair)
Sonics Nair vs Sheiks Bair= Sheik win (true)
Sonics Uair vs Sheiks bair= Sonic wins (why would you use Bair against Uair?) (I prefer Nair for this Sonics Uair) so we win
Soniss Dair vs Sheik Bair= Sheik wins (true)


I looked back and I saw rathy Aro (a none Sheik main) and <3 (one of the coolest guys out there). <3 Barely touched on Sheiks meta game.




Why are you all so worried about the tier list anyways. If you think Sonic rocks then that's you opinion. Stive to exploit his strengths and hide his weakness's. I have tried to do this with my Sheik.

Oh and BTW... I have fought a very good Sonic, he won. I have fought at least one pro at each character so I am starting to get a good idea of where each character stands. A;; Sonic needs is high priority IMO.

ps I use Sonic in none important matches.

 

[Browny]

To ShadowLink:
Half of what you posted was usless. 1/3 of what was left from that half was false

lol, youre in no position to judge

 

[Chis]

lol

I wouldn't call a thread alive for a month and a half with 10,000 views fail. We Don't need trolls V_V

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Yeah... that's right. Attack the thread instead of arguing facts. >.< Flaming gets you nowhere. I could mock the HELL out of your grammar right now but I won't cause I'm assuming English isn't your first language and it wouldn't prove **** about the topic at hand.

For the record the stuff stated still hasn't convinced me that Sonic is better than Sheik or vice versa actually. I really think it's too close to call. Going by the SBR's new number thing I'd say the difference is in the tenths if not the hundredths.

 

[Kitamerby]

metaknight/laser priority = 3
sword/hammer/aura/snake/G&W/magic/fire priority = 2
Everything else priority = 1

This is kind of old, but....
Hey idjit. Aura has the same property as lasers/MK, dammit. Get it right!

 

[Kinzer]

Then what's the deal with AS, IIRC Ike can like just literally PAWNCH them out of the way.

 

[<π]

As far as match ups go I feel most of sheiks match ups are wrong. Her crazy fast move set are what make her, she can punish any opening and I mean that very literally. On reaction you can jump in and hit meta's between their aerials if they don't play their cards right and distance themselves appropriately.

Her match ups once you start getting high are far from bad. Snake I feel is in her favor, D3 the same, falco is even, Diddy and rob aren't bad either, even meta if you are on top of your game and watching (pun... kinda, heh) DIing into combos and nado isn't an instant loss for sheik like so much of the cast.

One thing sonic does have going for him though is recovery and speed. There is a sonic tearing up the tourney scene (if you will) down here with sonic he uses his speed and basically stalls out matches instead of trying to win head on with horrible priority he punishes mistakes and avoid conflicts he can't win.

Sheik can be played similarly, but she lack the get out of jair free card that is sonic's spring. That move is crazy good.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

If you can name this Sonic I'd <3 you <3. That'd be SOOO ****ing annoying to play against.

 

[<π]

I believe he goes by Mickey.

 

[Kinzer]

Somehow I knew it would be Mickey, seeing as his location said FL and the way he said that Sonic player handled things.

Good @#$% Mickey.

And again TY <3 for a well-formatted post.

I'll just say that Sonic can play that same bait and punish game with his speed.

Gotta love that Speed.

 

[<π]

If you can name this Sonic I'd <3 you <3. That'd be SOOO ****ing annoying to play against.

I don't mind it. sonic doesn't have a solid approach game, he just scares people into thinking he has a wide variety of options. Once he starts an approach he is bound to it or a slow change of direction in just about every case. If you avoid taking damage this play style isn't hard because you no longer have to approach, he does. Once you get a stock you can comfortably rack damage, if you play safe you don't have to worry about death blows till very very high with sonic espeacially with sheiks very safe moveset or any othe similar ones. MICKEY I CHALLENGE YOU TO A DUAL!

I think sonic is a horrible character, but players like Mickey prove, to me at least, that it isn't about your match ups or what you are lacking it's about how you use what you have.

Also, the post of mine, before last, was near impossible to read, lol, far from "well formated". Thanks though Kinzer.

 

[ROOOOY!]

I still don't get the notion that Sonic has terrible priority.

But meh, I guess.

I can vouch for Sheik having better match-ups than Sonic. I still don't think her potential is anywhere near realised yet though, as for us Sonic's we kinda rattled through his meta-game pretty fast ._.