Is Sonic Mid-tier material? Is he better than Bowser again? (Read the OP)

[Chis]

Let's continue the discussion perhaps.

• Sonic has better match ups against Dedede, Falco and Metaknight who are used a lot in tourneys.

Ryko got sick of Brawl after he watched M2K make a mockery out of Ike in a low tier tournament (despite the fact Ike ain't low tier, M2K used Ike. Ryko placed 12th or so. M2K apparently had people walk into his Fsmash constantly and won. As in literally walk into it repeatedly) and now he rarely plays and uses Snake a lot when he does.

lol

 

[Browny]

'mockery' doesnt sound like the correct word if he managed to place first. maybe thats how ike is meant to be played?

sounds like johns to me

 

[Nidtendofreak]

No, mockery is correct. Going around claiming Ike should be low tier anyways, and then having people walk into your charged Fsmashes and Charged Eruptions for free because the opponent freezes up (M2K's skills + Ike's power? lolhaxs what can I do OH SNAP I walked into his fsmash)

Yes Sonic has better match-ups against those three. However, according to what I saw in your match-up topics/match-up tier list in a different board, Ike has better overall match-ups, and on par match-ups against the top 8.

Unless I read your chart wrong: it is kinda hard to read at times....

 

[RenegadeRaven]

Unless I read your chart wrong: it is kinda hard to read at times....

Pfft, and I thought I was the only one.

 

[Kinzer]

Chis you gotta make the colors easier to see or something. As our discussion leader as well, I strongly suggest you change the name of this thread: something like "IS Sonic better than.... *Insert character here*"

After this post I'm gonna go eat but let me ask this.

When Sonic might have matchups that are worse compared to characters like Wolf or Peach, certainly it does something, yet who is really better off when you have the top tiers that are more common, and perhaps more threatening?

I should start picking up Ike again if I can ever stop using only-Sonic, I can seriously get somewhere if I used the two, but for some reason I feel I need to get a placing with all Sonic first...

 

[Chis]

Orange and blue are easy to see enough, but I'll make the near even ones darker when I can. I'm not changing the title btw.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

A bit more into the match-ups:

Best as I can tell from the chart, Sonic has the advantage against:

Link
Ness
Ganondorf
Falcon
And Ivy

While Ike has the advantage against:

Falcon
Ganondorf
Jigglypuff
Lucas? (debated)
Ness? (debated)
Squirtle
Bowser
Ice Climbers
Zelda
Luigi (still a bit debated I guess....Luigi boards just kinda dropped the topic after we started to show how the fireball didn't suddenly give them a win and the fact we move faster, have more range, and more power >_>)
Samus? (Debated)

So, Ike is winning here, even if all of his debated ones were put to Neutral.

For high tiers:

Character/Sonic/Ike

SS Tier
Meta Knight/40:60/35:65

S Tier
Snake/40:60/40:60

A Tier
Falco/40:60/30:70
King Dedede/40:60/30:70
Mr. Game & Watch/35:65/45:55
Marth/35:65/40:60
Diddy Kong/50:50/45:55

B Tier
Wario/50:50/45:55
R.O.B./40:60/40:60
Lucario/40:60/35:65
Olimar/45:55/30:70

C Tier
Pikachu/45:55/45:55(needs to be redone due to CG. Stupid rat)
Kirby/40:60/40:60
Donkey Kong/40:60/40:60
Ice Climbers/50:50/60:40


>_>

<_<

I think I was wrong about my previous statement about high tiers......but Ike still had more advantages!

 

[Kinzer]

Wait, when did we go even with Wario, are you holding out on us?

 

[RenegadeRaven]

lol nvm off topic

 

[Browny]

OH GOD THE MATCHUP RATIOS ARGUMENT RETURNS TO HAUNT MY DREAMS ONCE MORE

Kill it with fire

 

[~TBS~]

OH GOD THE MATCHUP RATIOS ARGUMENT RETURNS TO HAUNT MY DREAMS ONCE MORE

Kill it with phire

well, we definitely dont go even with Wario, thats lies and slander. >_>
i dunno about Ike, but Sonic vs Wario is a big hassle. I imagine Ike can do better with his nairs to cancel out Wario's aerials.

 

[RenegadeRaven]

^^ Back Air! Up Air!

 

[Nidtendofreak]

OH GOD THE MATCHUP RATIOS ARGUMENT RETURNS TO HAUNT MY DREAMS ONCE MORE

Kill it with fire

We're too even moveset wise: all that is left is match-ups and tournament results, as much as I hate relying on both of those things.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Sonic isn't better than Ike, period O_o

 

[Kinzer]

Looking at base stats... maybe not.

Seriously, I expect one-liner generalizations that don't explain to anybody jack-s*** from people who don't know a thing about Sonic.

It's very easy to say something (and annoying having to read it), but much more difficult to back it up with logic and reasoning (I'm beginning to think it's a super-power).

 

[Chis]

Well, tourney results isn't reilable here since Ike is under used in tourneys. We've summed up the base stats and it's around even, unless you wish to add something Kinzer.

 

[Kinzer]

No, I'm good.

I'm not going to enjoy this next one if we're gonna go to Sheik, I swear I can already see how it's gonna end up...

 

[Jim Morrison]

Ike's jab ****s half of the cast over cause of his jab shenanigans. You need to DI out and if you do, expect the third. Even without jab cancel you get like 20% from his jab. His spacing is great and his F-air is FFFFFFFFF
Ike has a bigger pingas.

 

[Kinzer]

16%, actually. Everything else is a given, minus the Pingas! which I will gracefully deny since we're joking.

Also Fair has some decent lag if it isn't fullhopped, so even if it is one of the best spacers in the game (Don't tell me it is the best, you have to consider things like Zero Suit's Side-B), it won't help that the opponent can just find the rhythm and work around that Fair.

You know what, @#$% it, in Brawl where everybody has like a projectile, Ike is usually the one who has to approach, and Fair won't hit short stubby characters sadly.

 

[MarKO X]

I used to think Sonic was better.

But with the stuff given, they looking even. AND, neither are bad.

Maybe their even? They both require a bit more learning than most characters, they seem to have an equal opposite-ness in relation to each other. Ike does have more advantages assuming the matchup ratios are correct, and I'm just gonna take the word on it. Guess from here on in it's just preference.

Thus, I prefer Sonic. But Ike is cool too.

 

[Rykoshet]

'mockery' doesnt sound like the correct word if he managed to place first. maybe thats how ike is meant to be played?

sounds like johns to me

Sounds like a stupid blanket response to me.

 

[Kinzer]

So you say Ike is not low-tier,right?

I'm getting better at this,CPU still messed up,please S.O.S.

 

[RenegadeRaven]

Sounds like a stupid blanket response to me.

lol someone's mad?

 

[smashkng]

Ike's matchups are mediocre. If the opponent doesn't make misstakes, it's hard for him to win and he'll never early kill, so it's difficult for Ike at very high level matches against most characters, especially when lacking a really fast aerial and if he miss an attack, he is open for counterattacks. Sonic should have advantage on Ike if keeping not making any misstake at all.

 

[Darknid]

Sonic has more potential, with more skill he can be better than Ike. Sonic is also more fit to compete with the gimping abilities of high tier. MK, D3, Marth, Wario, GnW, DK etc..they all gimp Ike very easily, but Sonic is harder to gimp. This can be a big problem, recovery means a lot. Link's crap recovery is enough to drag him down to bottom tier from what could have been a mid tier placement, and you see a lot of low tiers have crap recoveries as well. You will encounter a lot of MKs that know how to gimp, and that's a much bigger problem for Ike than Sonic.

That's all I have to say.

 

[Chis]

It's not about potential, we're talking about current highest level of play, and for all we know Ike could get better too so yeah. So what if Ike gets gimped? That alone doesn't warrant him a place under Sonic. You see Ike Vs MK? 35:65, it's not unwinnable but hard. You're putting too much reliance on recovery. Ike has better match ups, range, killing power, punishes harder, guards the edge well etc... so yeah.

 

[smashkng]

The only two thing that makes bad Sonic is his attacks have no priority and terrible KO potential. I don't know if would be better for Sonic have good priority or better finishers which are the only two big problems to make him have bad matchups.

 

[Chis]

The only two thing that makes bad Sonic is that he hasn't got a sword.

Fixed. Even though he has some fair disjoints on some of his attacks.

and terrible KO potential. I don't know if would be better for Sonic have good priority or better finishers which are the only two big problems to make him have bad matchups.

Not really. But he would be better with more reliable kill moves. Like Fox's up smash.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I'm surprised A2ZONG hasn't come in with his usual "lulz, Ike only has 1 move safe on block you should only ever be getting hit by jab or grab Ike sucks bottom tier pls" stuff. We already have Darknid back in with "lulz, Ike's recovery sucks there for he sucks.", why not make a whole reunion with the people that pull out that bull constantly about Ike. -_-

I suppose the only other thing worth mentioning for if Sonic is better then Ike is that M2K believes that he is. But one person's opinion does not decide things, it's more of a curious note then anything. Sonic and Ike are very, very even over all. You might want to rap it up before things get worse here. >_>

 

[Chis]

Good idea. Now the discussion is on Sheik.

 

[MarKO X]

Well, Shiek is better at racking up damage.
Shiek can camp with needles.
Shiek might not be able to gimp well (i think) but her chain ggs recoveries all over if used correctly.
Shiek's recovery, while not better than Sonic's, has been buffed from Melee.

But Shiek lacks the ability to kill. Like, she only has one kill move (usmash) (correct me if I'm wrong plz) And at the end of the day, that's pretty important.

Now, Sonic obviously has a problem landing a kill move, but he has 3 of them (fsmash, dsmash, bair), thus when it comes down to the kill, a versatile Sonic isn't relying on the same kill move. Shiek, more than likely is. The best she can do at a point is go for the gimp after a while, because a shiek probably won't be connecting that usmash like hotcakes.

But plz, like I said, educate me if necessary.

 

[Jim Morrison]

This is against all of the cast, which not all have a good recovery. Against chars with a mediocre recovery, she gets gimped. Her F-tilt is terrible for some characters. Light characters/quick-interrupt moves have no problem with this though. Against the top/high tiers she hasn't got all that much going, except on the heavy ones (D3, ...Snake can pull a Grenade to get out). She outdoes Sonic in her camping abilities and she has far quicker moves.
Marko, get educated.

 

[Browny]

if you guys thought the mario discussion got bad, this is gonna get WAY WORSE.

Last time I checked, Sheik has some massive troubles against MK, IC's, G&W and pikachu. I think sonic does SLIGHTLY better against the top/high tier characters overall, his tournament records would indicate as such, but then again sheik has a pretty good time against chars like falco and maybe wario. sheik however has a better time than sonic against just about every other character from mid tier down, with a few **** matchups in there

oh and hopefully people see this..
Sheik mains if you are going to participate in this thread,
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, DO NOT POST AN ARRAY OF MATCHUP RATIOS VS THE CAST IN AN ATTEMPT TO FORM A MEANINGFUL ARGUMENT

 

[Tristan_win]

I see no point trying to arguing against the hordes of sonic mains about how their lower md tier character is better or worst then mine less popular more potential upper mid tier one.

I'll advise waiting until the june tier list to come out before going on about sheik… That or skip to Zelda and fox.

 

[GwJ]

Sonic isn't better than Fox though.

 

[aeghrur]

The reason I hate this thread:
People still use SONICS MORE POPULAR SO HE HAS MORE TOURNY RESULTS as an excuse.
Guess what? Bad sonics suck, bad sonics don't rank, good sonics rank. If there are more good sonics than good x characters, there just MAY BE, A TINY MINUSCULE CHANCE, AN IMPROBABLE POSSIBILITY that the character is better.

 

[MarKO X]

I see no point trying to arguing against the hordes of sonic mains about how their lower md tier character is better or worst then mine less popular more potential upper mid tier one.

I'll advise waiting until the june tier list to come out before going on about sheik… That or skip to Zelda and fox.

Well, personally, I'd like to know how you feel about Shiek being better than Sonic. Having gotten into this trend of picking a bunch of characters lately, I have a gut feeling that she might be.

Sonic isn't better than Fox though.

Cosign.

 

[aeghrur]

Hm, I'm with MarKO, I think that Shiek>Sonic, Fox>Sonic, Zelda/Shiek>sonic, and Ike is probably better than sonic.

 

[Browny]

everyone in the entire brawl cast is better than sonic

until that character is actually played in a real tournament

 

[aeghrur]

everyone in the entire brawl cast is better than sonic

until that character is actually played in a real tournament

orly? onleh cuz sonic est popular. O=<