Is Sonic Mid-tier material? Is he better than Bowser again? (Read the OP)

[Teh Brettster]

I think I'll agree with about everything Nidtendofreak posted.

Khaoz and I are really good friends at UNT and if we're playing Brawl during the semester, we're probably playing together. I know Ike pretty well, and I've seen a lot of things Sonic has going for him (not just, Khaoz.. he shows me Espy videos and whatnot).

I don't -want- to say Sonic is better than Ike, but I don't feel like Ike is really better than Sonic. Ike may have a few more bad match-ups (arbitrary statement.. I don't know if I'm right), but from what I've seen, Sonic is every bit as good as Ike (though that doesn't really say much, since Ike isn't the world's -best- character).

I'm no professional at character appraisal, but I'd put them pretty close to each other for the same reasons stated by Nidtendofreak.

 

[Kinzer]

Kinzer, don't you know about ike?
Or have you completely stopped following his metagame?

We have a metagame? :o News to me.

Pretty much yes, Ike hasn't gotten any better since I left the board, and I can already tell you that Ike & Sonic are probably equal.

Ike/Mario/Ness > Sonic

I'm the voice of reason for this thread.

You?

Camal, I know you're mah boi, but I can't help but think this instead:

Ness is < or = to Sonic.

Mario is = to Sonic.

&

Ike is = to Sonic.

Maybe you can argue just a tiny bit into the two ladders favor, but I swear if this next tier list is done with any intelligence, they'll all probably be in the same class.

 

[4nace]

How is Sonic better (than)...

 

[JayBee]

i think Ike/Sonic are equal, if not sonic one spot above. that's it. we all adressed it well already, it seems.

 

[Nitrix]

Is Sonic better than Ike?


I think that Ike is the overall better character, but this could change in time since Sonic seems to have some room to grow while Ike doesn't.

 

[da K.I.D.]

ikes KOing power and range allow him to have the matchups in his favor (what are they?) to be farther in his favor because if you make one mistake against ike, no matter who you play, youll be dead @ 50. But the fact is the ike's slowness and lack of a projectile, can make the bad matches (olimar/falco) really bad.

where as sonic, he can take advantage of more smaller mistakes with his speed, but a lot of times those dont result in kills which makes the matchups that are in his favor (Ike imo, and link) not so great in his favor and the matchups that he does bad in (snake and GaW) not as bad because he can play such a good keep away game with hit and run tactics.

So I think sonic as a stand alone tourney character is better than Ike.

 

[~TBS~]

ikes KOing power and range allow him to have the matchups in his favor (what are they?) to be farther in his favor because if you make one mistake against ike, no matter who you play, youll be dead @ 50. But the fact is the ike's slowness and lack of a projectile, can make the bad matches (olimar/falco) really bad.

where as sonic, he can take advantage of more smaller mistakes with his speed, but a lot of times those dont result in kills which makes the matchups that are in his favor (Ike imo, and link) not so great in his favor and the matchups that he does bad in (snake and GaW) not as bad because he can play such a good keep away game with hit and run tactics.

So I think sonic as a stand alone tourney character is better than Ike.

^This.
So, both characters require extreme setups to get into position against others. Ike has his autocancelled Nair and ever so strong attacks (that neutral B is death), but requires some kind of setup.

Sonic is not so different with setups, we have a bit more tools to work with (spincancels namely) and killing power against heavys are a problem. Well, KID pretty much nailed my point. And hold up KID, Sonic doesn't have a projectile either...

Is Ike pretty good against projectile spammers?

 

[Chis]

Is Ike pretty good against projectile spammers?

....

No he's not V_V

 

[JayBee]

the reason sonic can compete today is because a lot of this game revolves around punishment and mindgames to begin with. i look at sonic, and i feel like he probably has more consistant tools to play on those two things than Ike. i know Ike's jab is real good, and it leads to other grabs, and things, but it really starts and ends with that jab once the person gets in close range. I also believe that since the game is more focused on the abilty to survive offstage and fight offstage, that this poses a problem for ike. however, is his recovery really that bad? i dont think so. they Sonic and Ike are both punishment characters, IMO.


i know as a tourney character sonic is better from what ive seen and heard. as far as potential people are saying that Ike is at his limit, but he isn't making the same impact as sonic. i think KID got it right.

um who are Ike's best representatives in tourneys right now? I'd like to watch more of good ikes before i make a final decision.

 

[MarKO X]

Hmmm.... let's see.

First things first, who does better against MK? Sonic does.
Now, who's better at handling campers? Sonic is.
Who's better at recovering? Sonic is.
Who's better at killing? Ike is.... in terms of raw power, but how about them set ups? Better have killer mindgames. HOWEVER, you need killer mindgames for Sonic to an extent as well.
Who's better at punishing mistakes? Sonic.
Who has steak? Sonic does.
And once again, who does better against MK? Sonic does.

I feel that Sonic is better than Ike in many, many categories, and I'm inclined to believe that even though the matchup between the two goes even, Sonic is better than Ike. But that was a pretty biased, and maybe incorrect look at it. Is there anything that Ike is better at doing than Sonic?

 

[Kinzer]

I think Ike would be better at punishing mistakes.

One wrong move and you eat a forward fsmash. One lesser wrong move and you eat an FTilt which has enough power as a smash attack.

Make a wrong move with Sonic and you... end up being depressed.

Well not really but you get my point.

 

[Chis]

Ike is better at killing period.

Ike has far better range.

Ike has far better grab releases.

A mistake against an Ike can cost you a stock.

= with Soonic at edge guarding imo

 

[Kinzer]

I really don't see why you need to GR when your grab-game is actually one of the better in the game (seriously, 2nd best Pummel DPS, U-Throw doing 12% damage + setting up. D-Throw minus the tech being yet another set-up with decent damage. B-Throw and F-throw at worst being "meh" throws. What's not to like about Sonic's grab-game other than his grab-range?)

I don't pay attention to much to grabbing with Ike, but where does he come off?

 

[Chis]

The only thing Sonic has is Up throw and pummel. Down throw sucks now . F throw and back throw have always sucked. GR are good.



But yes Falco and MK **** him, and they're commonly used in tourneys.

Ike's attacks clearly have more cool down, hence more punishable if they miss/shielded. However, Ikes don't randomly up smash so meh. Ike's jab cancelling is really good, even chaining into kill moves (RAR bair, uptilt, fair, forward tilt).

What kid said is correct.

Ike is pretty sluggish in the air, allowing him to be 'combo'd' quite a bit. Whereas Sonic has great mobility, the spring, ASC and the spin shot.

Sonic can approach better then Ike can, due his speed, spin shot and some other things.

But Ike has a superior defensive game, being able to abuse his range to an extent.

Personal, I think Ike has the better air game as is Fair and Bair are better at spacing them any of Sonic's moves.

 

[Binx]

Sonic has some neat setups with fthrow at low damage. Its sort of like MK's dthrow, in the way you chase with it. I think they are fairly equal, sonic has no priority or range, but Ike is slow and punishable, they are on pretty opposite ends of why their attacks perform poorly but are on a similar level of poor.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I had this discussion in the tier list thread, and if you were to take a look at the actual facts, sonic has better GR combos BY FAR.

 

[RenegadeRaven]

I wouldn't go so far as to say Sonic has NO priority or range, because some of his attacks are pretty disjointed.
Uair, Ftilt, Utilt?, Bair?

 

[Binx]

I wouldn't go so far as to say Sonic has NO priority or range, because some of his attacks are pretty disjointed.
Uair, Ftilt, Utilt?, Bair?

Umm, well I was comparing it to Ike, but also its a lot less than say Snake Metaknight or DDD, who are the characters I use most often.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ike has the same air mobility as Toon Link. He's not "sluggish" in the air, unless you think Toon Link is. >_>

MK doesn't "****" Ike. It's a difficult match, but not "****". He has no unwinnable match-ups, and has 3 "ZONG THIS IS HARD" match-ups (Olimar, D3, Falco)

Neither is Ike at his limit. Nobody has really begun to use his grab releases in tournaments yet. It's more as if we've hit a temporary flat land in his metagame. A very long one, but I doubt it's done. Heck, we thought it was done a long time ago, and then suddenly we find out we have one of the best grab release games in the game.

The main problem is that people are starting to drift away from Ike. Ussi now mains Pikachu, Kirk is basically AWOL, Yagami is AWOL, Ryko got sick of Brawl after he watched M2K make a mockery out of Ike in a low tier tournament (despite the fact Ike ain't low tier, M2K used Ike. Ryko placed 12th or so. M2K apparently had people walk into his Fsmash constantly and won. As in literally walk into it repeatedly) and now he rarely plays and uses Snake a lot when he does. NinjaLink doesn't use Ike in tournaments despite having one of the best ones out there. We have a few people that can place in top 8, and even more that get top 15 almost every time they play, but not many and even less who can truly test things.

And da K.I.D: Sonic has more of them, but most of them aren't that deadly. Ike's can kill extremely early. (Walk-off Fair GR = lol gg). Sonic's most deadly one was a running GR CG. That was the argument, not who's are better. I would know, I was on the other side of that argument.

 

[Kinzer]

His aerial mobility might be alright enough to get him back to the ledge with a DJ and an Aether, but he is terrible getting opponents off of him in the air.

Try juggling Sonic and 99% of the time you'll get Springed. Worst that happens is that somehow an aerial cancels the Spring and you get put in a worse position but do you think it would be better to try and break free or eat 40+% in damage?

I really don't like how Toon Link can juggle so well though... and then he can like space with projectiles and his sword... guh.

 

[bobson]

Sonic has the better fthrow animation.

IN THE FACE!

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Sonic has the better fthrow animation.

IN THE FACE!

Well this discussion is over.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

The only time we eat 40+% from being put into the air is if it's against someone like Toon Link or someone else with insane juggling skills, in which case 90% of the cast as the same issue. >_> Even against Espy, I usually don't take that much from being launched into the air. I'll take about 15% or so, depending on the stage obviously and the % I was at before then.

Sonic may have the better fthrow animation, but we have the better dthrow and uthrow animations. :o And Ike's stage is actually tournament legal. XD

 

[TheREALShadowChaos]

Who's better at punishing mistakes? Sonic.

I'd say that Sonic punishes easier, but Ike punishes better if you punish.

Also Sonic Pauwnch is epic because it reminds me of Captain Falcon and it becomes stronger when you yell "Sonic PAUWNCH !!!!" while executing it.

 

[Orange_Soda_Man]

And Ike's stage is actually tournament legal. XD

We stole Yoshi's Island, and it is forevermore Angel Island Zone.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

We stole Yoshi's Island, and it is forevermore Angel Island Zone.

I don't think Yoshi will be happy about that. >_> They'll probably CG you for that.

 

[Kinzer]

I still like having some sort of "GTFO of me!" move >.>

Try this:

If you're being CGed by a Falco, unless somehow he reads your reaction or is frame-perfect, it's going to be 4% for trying to keep going as Sonic.

Ike can try to unplug his opponent's controller.

Also YEZS Angel Island zone is the best Sonic neutral stage, nobody else can abuse it like we can.

Oh and BTW Ike just stomps on his opponents in D-Throw, whereas Sonic doesn't afraid of ******.

And if this were Mortal Kombat, people would be dead on Sonic-s back, andt he announcer can go "Fatality!"

 

[RenegadeRaven]

Sonic may have the better fthrow animation, but we have the better dthrow and uthrow animations.

Um... wut?
Nothings cooler than rolling on your opponent at super high speeds, or stabbing them with your spires. =P

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Chokeslamming the opponent to the ground before jumping on their gut/groin to send them flying > spinning on them like a ball.

Tossing them up into the air and then nailing them with an uppercut to the gut with the handle of a two handed, massive sword > impaling them on spikes, but not by much.

And in the Falco CG -> Spike thing: Ike can go for an aetherspike. >_> <_< But yes, that is the second thing he needs the most (after a recovery that doesn't fail)

 

[Chis]

Stop going off topic please :o

 

[darkNES386]

1)If you're being CGed by a Falco, unless somehow he reads your reaction or is frame-perfect, it's going to be 4% for trying to keep going as Sonic.

2) And if this were Mortal Kombat, people would be dead on Sonic-s back, andt he announcer can go "Fatality!"

1) What do you mean? You can't escape it if done properly until about 40%

2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MH1btSVzfbA&feature=channel_page

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I played DarkNES as Falco and a Spike is always a safe option after a Dthrow. He kept springing out so I'd just kick him. If the spring is predicted it will be punished.

Did you ever put those vids up Nes? Please say yes. D=

 

[Chis]

You know it's possible to tech the edge of the stage and live right?

 

[Kinzer]

Eh, forget what I said then, it shouldn't matter if executed right...

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

.....so?

I do it on the stage. It leads to a chase from Falco. Offline I can even Dthrow to Spike and chase with a DACUS Usmash. Plenty of damage. Just saying even though Sonic's spring is a great GTFO move you still can't just trust it to work and it could set you up for something even worse.

 

[Kinzer]

I have yet to regret using Spring when I could.

...well, as a GTFO move almost to the ground at low %s anyway, I don't want to talk about how I made some bad judgments with attempts at Uair kills... D*** that Stone...

 

[TheREALShadowChaos]

Actually we could just compare matchup ratio's from both boards to see if Sonic ranks better.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Actually we could just compare matchup ratio's from both boards to see if Sonic ranks better.

We don't really do matchup ratios at the Ike boards much. The ratio isn't the important part in a match-up discussion: it's how we beat the other character and how we lose to the other character.

 

[Chis]

Well, the MK boards have MK Vs Ike as 30:70 MK. :/

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Well, the MK boards have MK Vs Ike as 30:70 MK. :/

Yes they do. We say 35:65 because quite frankly MK isn't as hard as Falco, D3, and Olimar. They are 3:7. Anything over 3:7 is because you have a non-universal CG that does like 90% damage.