Is Sonic Mid-tier material? Is he better than Bowser again? (Read the OP)

[Chis]

So I heard Mario's gimping potential is exaggerated... at high levels, how well does he gimp? And Vato, it's sounding like you're the average Mario main that doesn't know much about high level Sonics at all....

 

[vato_break]

really i only get gimped by mk who is the best gimper in the game... a who do you think gimps mario because everytime people try to gimp/edgehog me they get stage spiked by marios upB which works at 0%

@chris mario has probably one of the best gimp games right next to mk

 

[aeghrur]

really i only get gimped by mk who is the best gimper in the game... a who do you think gimps mario because everytime people try to gimp/edgehog me they get stage spiked by marios upB which works at 0%

Mario's Up-B is not Luigi's up B. >_>
Idk how well mario does against gimping though. =/

@chris

HAHAHAHAHAHA
Buddy, you're done, lol.

mario has probably one of the best gimp games right next to mk

Nope, lol. Samus has a pretty good gimp game iirc.
Falco can do pretty well for low-percent kills.
DDD can gimp really well with Bair.
Etc etc.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

lol Vato. I used to bair stage spike you all the time.

@Chis He should. He got whipped by me and PD enough times. ^_^

Or maybe it was just by me. I know he asked PD how to beat Sonics. I think PD said to take away my steak or something. XD

 

[vato_break]

Mario's Up-B is not Luigi's up B. >_>

proves your ignorance right there
look into 33 seconds into this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKWvP00YPOg =)

 

[Chis]

really i only get gimped by mk who is the best gimper in the game... a who do you think gimps mario because everytime people try to gimp/edgehog me they get stage spiked by marios upB which works at 0%

@chris mario has probably one of the best gimp games right next to mk

It's my name clearly has four letters >_>

This is at HIGH LEVEL. Tourneys. Are you a tourney variable Mario?

 

[vato_break]

It's my name clearly has four letters >_>

This is at HIGH LEVEL. Tourneys. Are you a tourney variable Mario?

of course i got 7th out of 64 at my last tourney =)

 

[RenegadeRaven]

^^ Nice.

Instants edgehog works nice against Marth and Mario though. Except when Marth seems to always have that extra oomf that allows him to land on the edge of the stage. ghey ghey ghey >_>

 

[Sync_]

I'd like to take the time to say that it's than, not then.
Smelly grammar is smelly.

 

[Kanzaki]

It's my name clearly has four letters >_>

This is at HIGH LEVEL. Tourneys. Are you a tourney variable Mario?

Who are you Chis? Are YOU even a tourney variable player? Myself and Vato are SoCal's best Mario's.. And I'm pretty sure SoCal > Your Region.

@Terios... you're basing skills off of wifi.. makes me roffles Unless you flew to Cali and owned him or something.. but I'm pretty sure you didn't, so roffles ^^

Mario does have one of the best gimps in the game, due to the reasons of so many tools available to him to gimp, just sounds as if any of you haven't played any good Mario's :[

 

[Chis]

lol u who are you? Anyways, He can be the best Mario in the USA for all I care, but he clearly doesn't know much about Sonic. That's like judging someone by a join date or something.

 

[MarKO X]

Mario's gimp game is pretty legit. He does have stuff can catch you by surprise; short recovery techniques that you can pull off against most of the cast can be ruined with by getting caped or getting super soaked, and therefore you could lose a stock.

Actually, I think that a high level Mario and a high level go neck and neck. They're both very underrated characters that lower than average tourney representation. Only reason I'm gonna say Sonic is better than Mario is because of allegiance, but without the bias, I'd say they should be close to each other towards middle tier. Both Mario and Sonic are better than a number of characters imo.

 

[JayBee]

Sonic has more players.
Mario does have a few select players that do exceptionally well at tournaments, we just never report the results to Ankoku. That list is extremely unaccurate.

Maybe, but i assure you it wouldn't matter if sonic was bad enough. and i never look at that thread in the first place.

Though frame data says otherwise. Mario's Fsmash hits on frame 15, Sonic's hits on frame 17. Which is barely noticeable, but still in Mario's favor.

ill give you that, since its, well, true lol. im jsut saying its not overwhelmingly better. mario's fsmash mindgames and tactic can easily be applied to sonic as well. for example, Boss's mindgame with it I have done pretty consistantly lately, in fact i've actually looked at vids of boss to see what mindgames i can incorperate with sonic.

So this entire paragraph just puts Sonic on par with Mario. And no, Mario beats Sonic in the air. Fair's your best bet if you try to put out some damage, and if both characters space their bairs, Mario's is faster.

im just saying that bair outranges mario and luigi's aerials. yeah, marios is faster, and its debateable depending on the matchup (and i think player dependant ) on whether you use bair or fair more, though i have to say the best sonic's use bair for spacing over fair. if were talking about safety and spacing bair is better, and i assume your air speed isn't as fast as sonics ground speed, so sonic should be able to do a dash away and RAR bair to space himself. its not hard to do, though this tactic slows him down a bit.

no u.

... you're mean.

If Mario can put out more moves, it provides a wall, meaning your ground speed plays a smaller role because you could end up running right into a SHDBair.

yeah, that is true, if the sonic is on the aggro trying to get in. listen to what im saying: sonic's bair, and f tilt out range the majority of your moveset. im not demeaning marios aerial game, but im saying if a defensive sonic wanted to, he can counter with those moves, and combined with quick retreats see success. im sure he will have to do more than that, but im certain this will make it a lot tougher for mario to simply steamroll sonic with aerials, and he'd end up workeing even harder, right?

No, tourney results come from smart players that play smart.
Sonic wins tournies because he has amazing approach options? Against a Wario or Meta Knight, I'd be surprised if his approaches would work.

his approaches against the majority of the cast force a more defensive mindset, so the affect is there. wario has to camp basically the majority of the match, because he has less priority than sonic. metaknight, though difficult, can be played with hit and run/ bait and punish tactics, and sonic's ability to punish lag helps even agaisnt his moveset.

Indeed. And no, nothing's gonna change. Mario just isn't tourney viable. But we can still hope for the best.

im sorry to hear that. but we were using boss as an example so much so i thought you guys believed it at the very least. dont' be like that yet in anycase. many people thought sonic was not tourney viable, for dumb reasons too. well, they are clearly wrong now, but it too, about a year to make it happen.

Super-cool.

indeed.



another thing: Mario's Fsmash can be out spaced with sonic's ftilt. the legs are not a hit box, added with mario's lean you can either hit him before the attack box comes out, or hit him thorugh the attack and take no damage. if spaced correctly. someone please confirm with move is actually faster.

also something wierd happend: i did mario's f smash, and sonic's jab accidentaly, and the fist touched the fire, but no damage registered. wtf?

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

@Terios... you're basing skills off of wifi.. makes me roffles Unless you flew to Cali and owned him or something.. but I'm pretty sure you didn't, so roffles ^^

I'm not saying wifi is a totally accurate representation of skill. I'm saying if you're good you can still tell how good someone is. Wifi is at least semi-legit. Players like Ally, Anther, Clouderz, HolyNightmare etc. can consistently prove themselves on wifi. And my wins were PRETTY ****ing decisive. If they were close I could see your point but most of the matches we did were almost JV 3 stocks. He could have very well improved in that time. But the POINT I was trying to make was that he has seen some of the stuff higher level Sonics can do and we shouldn't discredit his opinion. ****. I sit there and DEFEND you guys and you act like a ****. Way to go Mario mains.

 

[Kanzaki]

lol u who are you? Anyways, He can be the best Mario in the USA for all I care, but he clearly doesn't know much about Sonic. That's like judging someone by a join date or something.

Well.. your join date is Aug 2008 >.>

*will read the rest later.

 

[:mad:]

Maybe, but i assure you it wouldn't matter if sonic was bad enough. and i never look at that thread in the first place.

You had to check at least once to find out Sonic's tournament results. Amazing players like Kirin, Vato, Tony, and Bo still dish out the tournament results almost weekly for Mario. Mario would probably be about 25th if they did. And Famous doesn't even report results to US.

ill give you that, since its, well, true lol. im jsut saying its not overwhelmingly better. mario's fsmash mindgames and tactic can easily be applied to sonic as well. for example, Boss's mindgame with it I have done pretty consistantly lately, in fact i've actually looked at vids of boss to see what mindgames i can incorperate with sonic.

Absolutely. I just felt like clearing that up, since it's slightly faster. There's hardly a difference.

im just saying that bair outranges mario and luigi's aerials. yeah, marios is faster, and its debateable depending on the matchup (and i think player dependant ) on whether you use bair or fair more, though i have to say the best sonic's use bair for spacing over fair. if were talking about safety and spacing bair is better, and i assume your air speed isn't as fast as sonics ground speed, so sonic should be able to do a dash away and RAR bair to space himself. its not hard to do, though this tactic slows him down a bit.

Keep in mind I know little about what a good Sonic would do, I'm speaking on the Mario side. At the sacrifice of range, I'm just fine with being able to whip out to Bairs in one short-hop, rather than one really long one, like Sonic's.

Spoiler

That's what she said.

And I believe Upsmash beats every aerial Sonic has.

... you're mean.

yeah, that is true, if the sonic is on the aggro trying to get in. listen to what im saying: sonic's bair, and f tilt out range the majority of your moveset. im not demeaning marios aerial game, but im saying if a defensive sonic wanted to, he can counter with those moves, and combined with quick retreats see success. im sure he will have to do more than that, but im certain this will make it a lot tougher for mario to simply steamroll sonic with aerials, and he'd end up workeing even harder, right?

I'll take that. Seeing as how I know little about Sonic, I don't know his ranged moves. The sheer fact that Sonic is ungimpable makes this a bad matchup for him. If it was range, Mario could still overcome that. The fact that Marth CAN be gimped, even though he outranges Mario like all hell makes him 60:40/65:35. Not 75:35.

his approaches against the majority of the cast force a more defensive mindset, so the affect is there. wario has to camp basically the majority of the match, because he has less priority than sonic. metaknight, though difficult, can be played with hit and run/ bait and punish tactics, and sonic's ability to punish lag helps even agaisnt his moveset.

Erm, lol. I would know, I second Wario. And I can't argue with that, having speed's pretty useful.

im sorry to hear that. but we were using boss as an example so much so i thought you guys believed it at the very least. dont' be like that yet in anycase. many people thought sonic was not tourney viable, for dumb reasons too. well, they are clearly wrong now, but it too, about a year to make it happen.

Nah. I can't see Mario having much support, he's extremely hard to win with. If you win with Mario, you've earned that victory. Boss just... uses Luigi, the better character.

indeed.



another thing: Mario's Fsmash can be out spaced with sonic's ftilt. the legs are not a hit box, added with mario's lean you can either hit him before the attack box comes out, or hit him thorugh the attack and take no damage. if spaced correctly. someone please confirm with move is actually faster.

also something wierd happend: i did mario's f smash, and sonic's jab accidentaly, and the fist touched the fire, but no damage registered. wtf?

Sure.

Also, I'd like to apoligize for Vato. He's silly.

 

[Matador]

matchups =/= matchup ratios

When people go 'mario goes 45:55 vs snake' with absolutely NO proof whatsoever of this being the case, its pointless. Snake isnt sitting #2 on the rankings list, destroying the vast majority of the cast while having even matchups with low tiers. just because someone says 50:50 in a matchup based on pure theory means NOTHING when that character is getting slaughtered in the tournament scene.

There IS no proof. Matchups aren't EVER completely factual. There IS theory involved. All the ratio does is put up a number to give a general idea of how they do in the matchup. Are they always right? God, no. But they're a guideline, which is something we could use for right now. How are we supposed to explain how our character does against top tiers without ratios?

Surely you don't want me to write up a summary of EVERY high tier character vs Mario...

something along these lines is more appropriate

Sonic and mario are both disadvantaged against most of top and high tier with a few solid counters in there too. Mario seems to perform better in many of these matchups than sonic does, but he gets countered harder by a select few. the fact that these hard counters represent some of the most popular choices in tournament while sonics counters are less popular makes the viability of each character different. As a character as a whole with matchups across the entire cast, mario is most probably better but in terms of tournament viability, Sonic seems to be the better character as he is more capable of placing highly based off tournament results thus far

This is exactly what I did without numbers. There's no difference here. My ratios gave a general idea of how Mario does vs top tiers, most of which the other character boards even argued their side and agreed on the ratio. Your overview is more speculative than mine.

I'm lost on what we're still arguing anyway. We've already agreed that Mario + Sonic are pretty close in overall potential with their own inherent character flaws. They both do OKAY against high tier which makes them pretty equally viable in the tourney scene. What's left?

Edit: Better yet, what actually makes one character better than the other? Better tourney rankings? Better matchups? Better options? What are we still looking for?

 

[JayBee]

thats cool. i happen to watch a good portion of boss's mario, and ive played it /watched it up close. and i tend to go in training mode to look at things if i dont know. i dont remember the first time i went to that thread, but i guess i cant dispute that i may have. i honestly never heard of Kirin, Vato, Tony, and Bo though.

still, marios mobility is still good. that's my favorite thing about him.

also, if you dont' know about a character, and you reall want to, do what i do, and play with the chracter for a while. even if you have little intention of taking him somewhere. i did that with mario this week so i can have a solid idea of what im talking about, and not spout nonsence. that, and look at vids.

 

[aeghrur]

proves your ignorance right there
look into 33 seconds into this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKWvP00YPOg =)

You're right, I'm pretty ignorant about Mario, just like you are with sonic, so I'll admit it. Why won't you?
Also, I never said anything about his Up-B not being able to stage spike. I said it's not luigi's. Don't put words in my mouth. Ty.

I'd also like to point out around 2:15 that it shows Marth's Fsmash outranging Mario's Fsmash. :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqkEisobGD4&feature=related Around 1:03 is a great example of a possible edgeguard/gimp. Hit mario far enough, edgegrab.

 

[Kinzer]

Join date does not matter, for whoever said that.

Also this is it guys:

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

LMAO. Oh man. That's awesome.

 

[RenegadeRaven]

Nah. I can't see Mario having much support, he's extremely hard to win with. If you win with Mario, you've earned that victory.

We feel your pain. =(

 

[Camalange]

I still agree that Mario/Ness > Sonic.

But everyone else in Low Tier < Sonic

 

[JayBee]

so, are we done with this? idont think mario RIGHT now is better than sonic. and it looks like we covered everything.

 

[Chis]

Stages and mindgames? I explain 'mind games' a few pages ago.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I don't think Mario has that great ability to "mindgame" in the usual sense as he has the ability to pressure his opponents into mistakes. For example his low damage utilt/uair/nair chains can be pretty tight but he can have some trouble following them once they escape. One of the ways I notice Mario can keep a bit of pressure on is to just chase. If they DI an unexpected direction Mario has the option of SHBrevering a fireball and continuing the chase. People actually tend to freak out more after little hits than huge ones cause they expect something to happen and they're anxious to dodge as they have less time to react. Mario's fireballs are excellent at that. If you chase one way and they switch up their DI you can still fireball and start running. Stop and wait for a roll. If it doesn't come no harm and you might even get a grab off of it. If they DO start to roll you can get a free Fsmash which is awesome for Mario. Or Dsmash as most Mario's I've played like to use Dsmash to rack damage and Fsmash for a kill. Another cool thing I've seen Mario's do is to make a Bair wall offstage (or rather a bair fence lolbad/mediocrerecovery) and cape out. This lets him stall and **** over anyone attempting to attack him after his bair.


I would like to know what Mario can do offstage once his second jump is gone and he's moderately low. He seems pretty much ****ed. He only seems to have the cape to stall and a straight upB and I find that easy to edgehog.

 

[:mad:]

I still agree that Mario/Ness > Sonic.

But everyone else in Low Tier < Sonic

That was pretty much the best thing you've ever written.

 

[Chis]

I still undecided lol. Anyways, we can recap this later. Now Ike. I doubt Sonic is better than Ike lol

 

[Browny]

This is exactly what I did without numbers. There's no difference here. My ratios gave a general idea of how Mario does vs top tiers, most of which the other character boards even argued their side and agreed on the ratio. Your overview is more speculative than mine.

vs MK, Mario gets wrecked 65:35.
vs Snake, Mario's beaten 60:40
vs D3, Mario gets destroyed 70:30 or more
vs G&W Mario gets wrecked 65:35
vs ROB, Mario does well. 50:50 or slight adv
vs Lucario, Mario does well 50:50 or slight disadvantage
vs Falco, Mario does well, around 50:50 or slight disadvantage
vs DK, Mario does well, 50:50
vs Diddy, Mario does well, 50:50 or close to it in either direction
vs Olimar, Mario does well, 50:50 or slight disadvantage
vs Wario, Mario loses, 60:40 or maybe 65:35 imo
vs Pika, Mario does well, 50:50

tbh those are the sorts of ratios i would expect from a high tier. disadvantaged against the top tier (who isnt?), even-ish matchups with most of other high tiers are an assumed dominance over low tiers. A character i feel quite comptent with, lucario, I would give similar matchup ratios to. mix and match some ratios between olimar and G&W and it looks about the same. The difference is, Lucario is performing well at tournaments

 

[RenegadeRaven]

I still undecided lol. Anyways, we can recap this later. Now Ike. I doubt Sonic is better than Ike lol

But Shawik has teh sp33dz!!!!!!1!1!!!1!

 

[Kinzer]

He isn't.

Just put Ike in the same spot on you got a tier group/class.

 

[JayBee]

get the ikes in here. hopefully there will B less flame in this debate. though with his B special its completely understandable.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Get the good Ikes in here. I don't want the whiny scrub ones.

So basically everyone but RoK. =P

Seriously though. I don't know if I wanna say Sonic is better than Ike... I think they're about equals. It almost seems....stage dependent.

 

[aeghrur]

Kinzer, don't you know about ike?
Or have you completely stopped following his metagame?

 

[Camalange]

Ike/Mario/Ness > Sonic

I'm the voice of reason for this thread.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

We have a metagame? :o News to me.

Anyhow, I've said this before in different topics: Ike and Sonic are extremely close. It basically boils down to how much emphases you put on tournament results (unfortunately for Ike, Kirk has all but disappeared.....and he was the only one who could consistently place high in tournaments so our results have taken a nose dive...)

If a very large emphases is placed on tournament results, Sonic > Ike. If minimal emphases is placed on tournament results, Ike > Sonic. At least, that is how it currently stands. These two are near polar opposites after all. (As I have found out facing Espy. I don't care if the number says it's 50-50, I just get hit and run'd all day against him until I finally land a jab combo to rack up some %.)

Sonic is all speed speed speed, minimal KOing power, good recovery, lots of mindgames, minimal range.

Ike is all power power power, low speed, bad recovery, minimal mindgames, great range.

Both have a few well known but still working well strings (Spring games and Jab games)

The only place they don't even out is, as mentioned above, tournament results. If tournament results were equal, I'd give the edge to Ike. I believe that his jab game has just enough to push him over Sonic.

However, the tournament results scream otherwise. >_<

 

[Chis]

Ike > Sonic/Mario > Ness

I'm the voice of reason for this thread.

I agree with this post.

 

[Kimchi]

Ike > Sonic for reasons I'll state later. Sorry, forgot that this wasn't a matchup thread -.-.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ike has some notable advantages over Sonic. Ike has his Jabs, which cancel out Sonic's Spin Dash. His QD also cancels out Spin Dash. Ike outranges Sonic with his aerials and Ike's groundgame completely destroys Sonic's groundgame. Sonic has some of his own advantages however. Sonic's speed is definitely a disadvantage for Ike. Sonic can cancel his Spin Dash and make it very confusing and troublesome for the Ike player. Basically, Sonic has to punish what Ike does wrong. One thing I'd advise Sonics to watch out are Ike's options after missing a Fair. When I miss a Fair, I tend to see a lot of Sonics start rushing in for the punish towards me. I just laugh because I just start jabbing immediately after Fairing. What Sonic has to do against Ike in this matchup is basically use those spindash cancels and force Ike to make a mistake and then punish appropriately. Sonic also can gimp Ike pretty well with his Spring recovery. Sonic has some semi-decent aerials that he can rack up damage against Ike pretty well since Ike is a heavy character. Some advice that I might have to give is simply not to underestimate what Ike's capable of just because he's slow. When Ike gets close, he'll rack up an easy 30% and that's with his jabs alone. No offense, but I find Sonic's ground game to be pretty pathetic so my advice would be to pull out once Ike gets close and personal. Ike has to rely on his fast moves in order to win this matchup. Sonic has to abuse his grab a lot in this matchup lol.

*facepalm*

You didn't read the OP.

 

[JayBee]

personally, i feel like sonic would be just about as good as ike, but sonic overwhelming tourney results, so atm i give the edge to sonic. i dunno how many ike players there are, but i havent heard much talk about them in the metagame in tourneys, etc. its the same situaion with mario basically: a character thats potentially just as good as sonic but with little tourney showing to back up his case. sigh. we know about the sonic/ike matchup so i dont wanna discuss it atm, and i dont see anything similar in ikes moves to compare to sonic. also, they play differently, which makes it harder. this is another character sonic can be placed above in the next tier list based on results, not theory.