Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Bones0]

Is there a specific window of frames when nair trades with Dolphin Slash?

Dolphin Slash hits frame 5 and is invincible on that same frame. After that it's all depends on spacing.

After watching Brawl slowly die, and Melee wildly flourish, I came to the conclusion that Melee is gonna be around for a very long time. Therefore I'm going to stop putting off my improvement and instead practice tech skill for 15 minutes a day so I can rise above "has the tech skill of a bonobo." Anyone care to share to share any "practice routines" they go through? Videos would be awesome, and/or descriptions of specific things to practice and how to practice them. Right now I'm going off of what

10,000 Words of Power is telling me, but I'm looking for any more help I can get. I already know all of the basics (waveshining etc) and either know or consider myself capable of performing all of the advanced stuff. I'm a very tech-skill oriented player in Brawl (take that as you will), so throw anything you got at me.

1. Practice moving (DD, WD, WL; vary your distances, timings, FFing, double jumping, and aerial drift)
2. Practice comboing out of uthrow:

I highly recommend going into Training Mode and putting a random top tier at 50%. Combo uthrow uair and reduce the percent until you can no longer hit it. Even when you swear there's no way you can combo it any faster, keep trying and you'll naturally smooth out the wrinkles. I have been doing this with Falco recently, and it's crazy how much better I am at throw comboing. I'd start out with a mid-weight like Mario, and then work your way towards more extreme characters like Peach or Puff. Puff is especially good practice because she is so light that you can jump ridiculously early after inputting the throw. I whiffed about 5 uthrow uairs in a recent set with a Puff because I would wait until the average ending time of Falco's uthrow, but now that i practiced it I can combo her super easy. Once you've reached the lower bound of the percent that you can combo at, go back to 50% and start increasing it to practice comboing at higher %s.


People have all sorts of inefficient habits that they never realize because of it working on their not-so-good training partner or computers. For instance, a lot of people will jump quick enough after their throw, but instead of inputting their uair so it comes out by the time they reach their opponent, they wait until they're close enough to their opponent and THEN input the uair. This wastes valuable frames that can have a pretty huge impact on whether or not you get your throw combos or combos in general. You may also want to try uthrow uairing with Falco because his throw's lasers knock opponents to the side, so it can do a decent job of emulating DI on Fox's uthrow, which allows you to practice controlling the distance of your dash before jumping and your aerial drift during the jump and uair.

 

[unknown522]

It's more of a late percent/kill/usmash set up thing, I'm still trying to flesh it out since the point is to have the low knockback work into your favor

Sorta like how mango does weak hit nair->dash->usmash. Only immediate difference between these two is that nair has to be out for a "weak" hit while fair doesn't. I could see it being implemented

you can sometimes use it like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQ4BHVXkSKM#t=5m18s

bad quality though

 

[BetaBahamut]

anyone wanna give me critique/help vs marth? http://www.twitch.tv/oosnowman/c/2586037.

 

[Apasher]

anyone wanna give me critique/help vs marth? http://www.twitch.tv/oosnowman/c/2586037.

Don't just throw out an attack just because he's in the position that it might hit. He'll just retreat by wavedashing back and grabbing you. Instead, wait for him to react and then punish.

Waveshine -> jc usmash isn't as effective in low/mid % as waveshine -> grab uthrow -> uair. You'll rack up more damage and possibly lead to a stock.

Work on your spacing vs Marth as well. In the words of Jman; "use the gun." Only use dashdance in this MU when you have positional advantage, because Marth out-spaces Fox in the neutral position. Marth's isn't as good at approaching as he is at spacing. Laser camping to force him to approach is the key in this MU. Plus, free damage from lasers.

 

[Metakill]

Well... Peach isnt my best matchup, any advice? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wb8AR_vdpoE
Also, I know fox is soooo amazing but, is there any good 2nd to have with fox? (in my case, I dont like fox vs peach/falcon/sheik)

 

[balladechina212]

Well... Peach isnt my best matchup, any advice? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wb8AR_vdpoE
Also, I know fox is soooo amazing but, is there any good 2nd to have with fox? (in my case, I dont like fox vs peach/falcon/sheik)

I actually like Falco in the above match-ups when my Fox isn't playing well. I feel like those characters punish Fox's tech skill mistakes a lot harder than others do and since Falco is easier, I tend to do better.

Obvious solution though is not to make tech skill mistakes haha

 

[Bl@ckChris]

seems like PP wants to take this game seriously again. you guys will be seeing more of me in the future. i'll try to relay some of his general tips here. most of his fighting stuff is weird psychology stuff and won't make much sense though LOL.

 

[KirbyKaze]

seems like PP wants to take this game seriously again. you guys will be seeing more of me in the future. i'll try to relay some of his general tips here. most of his fighting stuff is weird psychology stuff and won't make much sense though LOL.

 

[Engo]

seems like PP wants to take this game seriously again. you guys will be seeing more of me in the future. i'll try to relay some of his general tips here. most of his fighting stuff is weird psychology stuff and won't make much sense though LOL.

So he wasn't previously...?

 

[Silent Wolf]

Id like to hear anything pp has to say. I asked him for jiggs advice once and he gave me some really good insight, and also let me look into how he thinks about the game

 

[Apasher]

Get more tech skill.

Or, he could just... slow his game down and play more patiently (laser camping, etc).

Though the key to the Falcon MU is pressure, so I guess improving techskill would probably work better for that MU.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

@kk: at least i finally dropped ganon LOL. 3 months of that while he was in college with me and i was like "welp, this is pointless."

but yeah, conversations with PP are always insightful, and finally have me playing the game of melee. playing against him has me losing stocks for the slightest of errors, so it gives me a lot to thing about, but primarily it's a lot of good DI practice.

leading up to evo he was, as was clear in his set vs armada. however, i suspected he would go back into a sort smash hibernation until closer to apex or something goofy, but it seems he wants to hold the pace of his evo training, or something close to it. idk if he's getting streaming equipment or what (maybe vgbc things, but i have no clue) but if he doesn't, i'll figure it out. i work 12 hour shifts, but that gives me more days off than a normal schedule, so in time, those should become a useful source of fox information, either through our conversations, or through example as my playstyle further develops.

 

[Apasher]

Can you get anything out of CCing Falco's lasers?

Also, how effective is DIing down on Falco's shine and teching afterwards? Is it better as a mix-up, or could it potentially add to the anti-Falco metagame?

 

[omgwtfToph]

PP is filthy.

KK is also filthy.

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

how do i beat peach, playin a peach today for the first time and i was only laser camping for ever and ****
she was dying at really high percents which makes the game seem like *** since i layed a 7:52 match

i hate peach so much cuz all floaties are gay, i wasnt reacting to dsmash that well but got out most of the time before i cud get *****
how are you supposed to react to dsmash, do you di up

im guessing all fox has to do is wait. am i right?

 

[Apasher]

how do i beat peach, playin a peach today for the first time and i was only laser camping for ever and ****
she was dying at really high percents which makes the game seem like *** since i layed a 7:52 match

i hate peach so much cuz all floaties are gay, i wasnt reacting to dsmash that well but got out most of the time before i cud get *****
how are you supposed to react to dsmash, do you di up

im guessing all fox has to do is wait. am i right?

Either you're missing a lot of opportunities to punish, or the Peach you're playing plays incredibly gay and absolutely refuses to approach.

Fox should only play patient and laser camp vs characters that are better at spacing/zoning and dealing with pressure than they are at approaching. In matchups when your opponent's character is better at approaching than they are at dealing with pressure (or if they just straight up out-camp Fox), then that's when Fox goes in.

About reacting to Peach's dsmash: my DI is atrocious, so I'll let the good players answer that question for you.

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

i dont know what moves to throw out beside dair and shien and uthrow uair since i dont know when cc stops happening

 

[Apasher]

i dont know what moves to throw out beside dair and shien and uthrow uair since i dont know when cc stops happening

Those are what you use when she's grounded. Look for her landings and punish those with the appropriate aerial.

 

[unknown522]

yeah just DI up vs d-smash.

you can cc -> shield/shine vs her d-smash at low percents, but it's not worth the risk

 

[Xyzz]

i was only laser camping for ever and ****

don't do that :D

Your aim is too wait for an opening, which you totally should do (every time peach hits you, you ****ed up, no questions asked), but laser camping is asking for that to happen. Lasering is soooo commiting to something that yields little benefit. Sure, throwing in some once in a while (more if she refuses to do stuff) is fine... good even. But your real goal is to set up an approach she can't beat. It's not easy to realize where those are, but ya.... that's what you want to do imho).

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

yea real talk, ill start practicing clean no lasers so i can work on approach and punishing
lol ill just watch mango
also, what are the stages i shud not have to play peach on with fox, i only see fox peach on dreamland and battlefield
why do peaches like taking fox to a small stage like yoshis?

 

[Apasher]

yea real talk, ill start practicing clean no lasers so i can work on approach and punishing
lol ill just watch mango

Dude. Mango rarely used lasers vs Armada at Genesis 2 and played his usual aggro playstyle. He lost.

At EVO 2013, he slowed his game down and played more safe. He won 2-0.

What you need to do is find a medium vs Peach. Don't play too campy, but don't play too aggressive.

also, what are the stages i shud not have to play peach on with fox, i only see fox peach on dreamland and battlefield

why do peaches like taking fox to a small stage like yoshis?

PS usually favors Fox. Battlefield is even because it's Battlefield. Don't pick Dreamland, because of the high ceiling.

I'm not really sure why Yoshi's would favor Peach. She doesn't have any room to space/zone you, which allows you to pressure. Plus she dies off of the top early because of the low ceiling.

I would avoid FoD, Dreamland, and FD vs Peach.

 

[Iron Dragon]

Hit and run on Peach. Well placed bairs, some lasers....and

ah **** it, just watch leffen do it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtUiRf5KD5E#t=1m52s

 

[Silent Wolf]

Fox ***** ***** fox *** bair fox ****

 

[Ijuka]

When Peach is on the ground, I would never approach her. When she's in the air, you can outprioritize her pretty well unless you let her fair you(that move is damn broken). Those open the door for most of your nair -> usmash/uair combos. If she's being predictable with her fairs, you can usmash her out of it and running below her works pretty well, too. It might even give you a free utilt which in turn tends to lead into uair.

When she's on the ground I would practically never do anything but spaced bair -> run away and perhaps shine -> JC grab and dash dance grab. Her dsmash is too scary and hits your shine attempts. Especially trying to dairshine her is a great way to kill yourself.

Always CC the first hit of the dsmash when she uses it to edgeguard, this is obvious but many people don't do it.

If you get her with a shine when she's grounded, you can infinite her anywhere until death. It's recommended to learn this, it's not even that difficult. Light shielding down smash gets you a shine for free with no risk, for instance. Shielding her dash attack is another one. This should always be a stock, you can even do it on some platforms.



I think that Battlefield favors Peach, Fox cannot properly recover there so she has a much easier time edgeguarding and she can do a lot of stuff with the platforms. It also is rather vertical so your blaster spam isn't nearly as good.

I like FD against Peach because it lets you run away really well and be precise with your pokes but you of course die off a single grab(you have the tools to avoid the grab in my opinion though).



I also disagree that blaster spamming isn't optimal. You just need to be outside of her effective range when you do. It's impossible to punish. Of course when she's close, you want her to be in the air so that you can do something to her(and generally the blaster gets her into the air).

By the way I think that some sort of a ground approach is viable as well but it's just unnecessary when you're so much stronger when she's in the air and she loses her option to grab.

 

[Prince_Abu]

vs peach fox can win on every stage the worst is FD because of chain grabs

Yoshis is good if u want to just run in and fight her
dreamland is good if u want to use lasers
BF and FoD are fine i guess

#1 thing is to make sure u dont get down smashed at low %

 

[Jim Morrison]

FD is easiest, just don't get grabbed which should be easy against anyone who's not Armada. If you get grabbed, it's 100% your fault for playing overly aggresive and giving her the opportunity. FD is easiest because you can just fly around her without worrying about wavelanding on platforms and ****.

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

^What? Peach can very adequately turn random hits, tech chase situations and singular reads into grabs. It's definitely not 100% brain dead easy to avoid getting grabbed on FD.

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

thanks mans, pretty sure fox shudnt be losing unless the peach has great mobility like armada who is ahead of his time and not fair
i just wanna know when strong nair stops getting cc
this match up looks pretty chill considering you can shdl and do simple easy and soothing moves to relax yourself and take stress off from dbz battles like fox shiek and match ups where you are cautious of more stuff

also can i cc shine the first hit of dsmash?

 

[ShroudedOne]

yeah just DI up vs d-smash.

you can cc -> shield/shine vs her d-smash at low percents, but it's not worth the risk

^^^^

In response to your other question, some Peaches will go to Yoshi's because they like that Fox doesn't have room to avoid her big moves, edgeguarding is easier, and comboing is easier. Most still prefer BF/DL, though.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

recent videos of my fox. accepting all thoughts, critiques and such. i'll warn you, they're cameraphone videos, but they're actually pretty solid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9NvEjE44Yc&feature=c4-overview&list=UUcJ_S3iP9VSS4WVAcQYER0A

 

[eternisedDragon]

@Bl@ck Chris:

Go for more grabs against Marth/Use shine-grabs more often instead of going for shine-nair pressure.
Improve your DD game/ you jump too often
Learn Ledgedashing consistenly
Use your shield more effectively (run up to where Marth is standing and shield his attack, grab him or go for a wavedash out of shield and launch that nair/fair/weak-bair-plane and end it with a drill grab/up-smash)
Stop wasting your doublejump/ treasure your second jump - If you play against good players consider your stock as gone whenever you get hit out of your doublejump
Learn Wavelanding and empty-hop to grab

 

[unknown522]

dude, you're gonna start getting punished soon for not JCing your grabs after waveshining.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

i wasn't JCing them? that's odd. i must've been playing lazier than i thought.

i kind of like using my shield as a baiting tool, but i'm not much for getting grabbed, but i'll keep that in mind.

thanks for the other comments.

 

[BTmoney]

Here's something I actually need help with. Controller etiquette for uthrow->uair

I hope you guys are understanding the scope of the question, for example it is objectively better to SHDL with Y/B rather than X/B although you can do either one obviously.

This is something I over think and mess up a lot when it's DI'd so I'd like to just have one method to practice. I understand there is some "comfortability/preference" level to it but I really would like to know how you people do it, it feels so awkward when it's DI'd.

 

[Metakill]

...

For Uthrow -> Uair I personally use index finger on Y and thumb on the C stick so I can do the two inputs without moving one finger across the controller, for my it works perfect if they DI the throw or not

 

[Bl@ckChris]

i use y and up A. oftentimes they're just easier to get when i use my doublejump properly, so using y and up allow me to do that easily. i honestly don't know if when i want to single jump i use the cstick, or just control stick A, or both at the same time to prevent my double jump from coming out...

 

[omgwtfToph]

Fox ***** ***** fox *** bair fox ****

/thread, honestly

 

[Silent Wolf]

silent wolf for top 8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7S_DaAhqK8&list=PLZaxVcdYZSlyT2HCsEcg6cI_hPHnDeI4S

 

[unknown522]

did toph post that?