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Oh, so you weren't joking lol. Imo there are better ways of dealing with making better in game decisions than disabling things that are potentially harmful, yet very crucial to your gameplay. You may as well just put more thought into using what comes with l canceling and shine than to just not do them. You're going to be using them in serious play, so you should practice using them so you know where they fit into your game best. There's no better practice for something than just practicing what you wanna get better at. Taking things like that out of your game seems like an unecessary chore.
Thinking about playing someone actually good like that seems like a really bad idea. You wouldn't even be able to use defensive bairs reliably in a lot of situations, among other things besides nairs. You'd basically have to develop a whole new unecessary style just to rid yourself of a few bad habits that can be exterminated easier than such. Foxes should be experimenting with what they'll actually use when they're improving, even if it means getting ***** and not knowing exactly how to use it for a while
My goal was to make him feel like there's no escape once I hit him.
to make him feel like there's no escape once I hit him.
to make him feel like there's no escape
like there's no escape
there's no escape
More than 1 or 2 foxes in top 12 for the first time in so long.
Its easier to go further when facing the direction you're wavedashing in because your thumb can creep the control stick towards the direction you're gonna wavedash in before you jump out of shine, whereas you'd have to make sure you jump before hand if wavedashing back. Its a bit harder. You can turn around in your shine as soon as you do it and wavedash out forwards to make it easier; there's usually time for thatNot sure if this is where i should be going with this but ive been working on my waveshines and was noticing that my perfect wavedash seems to go farther when i wavedash the way my character is facing as opposed to backwards, is this an actual game mechanic or do i just need to practice more?
Not sure if this is where i should be going with this but ive been working on my waveshines and was noticing that my perfect wavedash seems to go farther when i wavedash the way my character is facing as opposed to backwards, is this an actual game mechanic or do i just need to practice more?
Past like Mid/high teen percent Marth has to start pivot grabbing (dashing out of the range of a shine, dashing back and doing a JC grab, watch m2k do it) otherwise if the spacie doesn't DI or DI's very slightly behind Marth he'll get shined. PPU wasn't exactly doing it correctly. If Marth is chain grabbing you in place past mid/high teens percent you can shine him as he's about to grab youhey got a general question for both fox and falco
i suck when getting chaingrabbed
i dont know how to react
i just mix up di but always get out much later than optimal
i saw leffen shine out of pewpewu this weekend at like under 20%
can someone go off on how to di upthrow and when shine comes out
i need a mentality for when im being chaingrabbed for both fox and falco
and is chaingrabbing even good, if its only good at getting like 10% is it even worth it. or do marths rely on getting the chaingrabs then regrabs to tipper.
wud definitely like to know how to improve on this
You already saw this post, but maybe you forgot about it... or didn't read it in the first place...hey got a general question for both fox and falco
i suck when getting chaingrabbed
i dont know how to react
i just mix up di but always get out much later than optimal
i saw leffen shine out of pewpewu this weekend at like under 20%
can someone go off on how to di upthrow and when shine comes out
i need a mentality for when im being chaingrabbed for both fox and falco
and is chaingrabbing even good, if its only good at getting like 10% is it even worth it. or do marths rely on getting the chaingrabs then regrabs to tipper.
wud definitely like to know how to improve on this
You don't have to wiggle out of tumble to be able to shinei would recommend against jumping out because a lot of marths just uptilt... and then you lose your double jump which can be bad. you just need to wiggle out and shine shrug.
m2k doesn't cover all options - i honestly haven't seen him pivot grab at all lol. at least recently. He opts for uptilt most of the time and that just lets spacies get out for free. but then he gets another grab and at that percent uptilt actually leads into something so shrug.
Who ended up knocking you out?GGs evo foxes. Think I'm close to breaking through. We'll see what happens.
Oh, so you weren't joking lol. Imo there are better ways of dealing with making better in game decisions than disabling things that are potentially harmful, yet very crucial to your gameplay. You may as well just put more thought into using what comes with l canceling and shine than to just not do them. You're going to be using them in serious play, so you should practice using them so you know where they fit into your game best. There's no better practice for something than just practicing what you wanna get better at. Taking things like that out of your game seems like an unecessary chore.
Thinking about playing someone actually good like that seems like a really bad idea. You wouldn't even be able to use defensive bairs reliably in a lot of situations, among other things besides nairs. You'd basically have to develop a whole new unecessary style just to rid yourself of a few bad habits that can be exterminated easier than such. Foxes should be experimenting with what they'll actually use when they're improving, even if it means getting ***** and not knowing exactly how to use it for a while
i dont need overswarms guide anymore
instead i turn it on and listen to the music
Hitting someone or their shield causes hitlag, frames where you can't act. I think it's more apparent on something like Falcon's dair. You can waveshine or jump out of a shine faster on air than you can when you're hitting something that being said the timing isn't different enough for me to think about itQuestion about jumping out of shine: it seems the timing is different depending on whether you hit an opponent with the shine. Does the hit take one frame, meaning that you can't jump out until the third frame, as opposed to just shine w/o touching anyone which means you can jump out on the second frame? This is what it feels like to me: I can't drill-shine-drill unless I slightly delay the jump after the shine..
yes. you can practice the timing by playing against a lvl 1 bowser with 9 handicap. hitting a shield is also the same as hitting an opponent so yayQuestion about jumping out of shine: it seems the timing is different depending on whether you hit an opponent with the shine. Does the hit take one frame, meaning that you can't jump out until the third frame, as opposed to just shine w/o touching anyone which means you can jump out on the second frame? This is what it feels like to me: I can't drill-shine-drill unless I slightly delay the jump after the shine..
Unfortunately, your theory seems to ignore the main deciding factor as to who actually wins or loses, which I would think is strategy. Control, adaptability, and mental fortitude are all great traits to have, but they are practically useless if you're using them for a suboptimal or completely ineffective strategy. Someone who has good marks in those categories will still lose to a player with minimal control, adaptability, and mental fortitude if the opponent has a more reliable and efficient underlying strategy. If you are a Fox that thinks the game should be played by running away and lasering until the opponent is at KO percent, it doesn't matter how much tech skill you have, how focused you are on camping them out, or how well you are able to run away and laser vs. varying strategies. You're still relying on a dangerous and ineffective game plan. If that same Fox had first tried all of the general ways to play the game, he would have realized how much more reliable and effective strategies other than laser camping were and could have saved tons of wasted time and effort.@Approaching conversation: Thanks again for all the information regarding approaches, positional advantages and some insights on Fox's gameplay. I set out with the question of basically, "What separates a good fox from a bad fox?" And to be expected there was an interesting conversation regarding the technical side of melee (chalk full of back and forth about what makes a good approach and even some conversation regarding how to play fox "properly")
I was originally intending to contribute to this conversation with ideas of my own on what separates a good fox from a bad fox, but other questions took the forefront that may be even more important in the long run. The question now is: Why do people lose? And not to sound egotistical but I think that I figured it out. In my opinion it boils down to 3 main (very broad) elements that contribute to victory or defeat. In my opinion the three pillars of victory are: Control, Adaptability, and Mental Fortitude. I am considering writing a topic in the Melee Discussion boards or making a blog about it. If I'm right about this it could easily be applied to any fighting game not just melee. However, I don't want to make the post without first refining my theory and hearing different opinions from people. So if you're at all interested in discussing this beginning of a theory (not full fleshed out at all) feel free to contact me via AIM, or Skype (please no calls, I can't hear well). I would love to hear what you think about this idea even if you disagree on every level. I have no doubt that people will disagree with me but like I said I would want to refine the theory and bounce ideas off of people who are interested without taking up space in the fox boards or missing something and subsequently sounding like a fool. Send me a PM in smashboards if you're interested in this discussion.
Thanks! Now I will leave you all to do foxy things.![]()
Unfortunately, your theory seems to ignore the main deciding factor as to who actually wins or loses, which I would think is strategy. Control, adaptability, and mental fortitude are all great traits to have, but they are practically useless if you're using them for a suboptimal or completely ineffective strategy. Someone who has good marks in those categories will still lose to a player with minimal control, adaptability, and mental fortitude if the opponent has a more reliable and efficient underlying strategy. If you are a Fox that thinks the game should be played by running away and lasering until the opponent is at KO percent, it doesn't matter how much tech skill you have, how focused you are on camping them out, or how well you are able to run away and laser vs. varying strategies. You're still relying on a dangerous and ineffective game plan. If that same Fox had first tried all of the general ways to play the game, he would have realized how much more reliable and effective strategies other than laser camping were and could have saved tons of wasted time and effort.
If I were to summarize the pitfall of your theory broadly, I'd say it encourages players to focus too much on how they are doing something and not enough on what they are doing. I would consider focusing on what to do a much better way to learn and improve because you get quick results. If you pick a strategy at random and dedicate to learning every detailed way to do it, you risk finding out a long way down the road that you've been studying and practicing the ins and outs of a suboptimal strategy. If you instead focus on what to do first, you will try all the general approaches to each matchup and situation and learn what appears to be optimal. From there you can pick the top few approaches and flesh them out with a more reliable guarantee that the developed strategies will actually be worth something. Of course, you will occasionally get strategies that seem bad on the surface but become optimal only after you finetune your control, adaptability, and mental fortitude, but I'd say those examples are few and far between.
I know most people are probably thinking they already know what they should be doing, but I've thought the same thing way too many times to count over the course of playing this game, so I've basically abandoned the idea that I might know how to play the game, at least until I have reached an absurdly high level of skill. Even then, I think top players that stay on top tend to be the ones who don't take anything for granted. As soon as you start assuming you know how to play, you unnecessarily limit what your strategy could encompass which not only makes you easier for opponents to figure out and solve, but it holds you back as the metagame continues to progress in a direction away from the current status quo.
I think I feel like I know where you're coming from here. Are you basically saying that a person should learn the correct/most effective strategy before devoting their time to it? Again though, wouldn't that series of "fleshing out" a strategy or fine tuning it fall under adaptability? If you went to a match and decided to stick with a certain strategy that works on paper or even if the strategy worked wonderfully the previous match if the strategy is no longer producing good results then no matter what happened before it has now become the "incorrect" strategy. Consequently, the match relies on who is better able to adapt their respective strategies.Bones0 said:If I were to summarize the pitfall of your theory broadly, I'd say it encourages players to focus too much on how they are doing something and not enough on what they are doing...
It's not really an "agree or disagree" thing. Trial and error gives you exactly 0 progress unless you're on the right path. Every single mistake you make that you fail to realize is a mistake is a colossal longterm failure when you attempt to learn through trial and error. If you're on the right path, then yeah, there's no real difference. It'd be WAY faster if you sat down and just pulled a Smash savant and knew exactly what to practice and how to practice and what to do, but even today people don't know what to do.I disagree, Overswarm. If I end up feeling like writing up a response I will. I can say, for now, that while that method of learning may be effective (for low level players, if anyone imo), I wouldn't dub it more effective than trial and error with what you would actually be using in conjunction with the right method of thinking about what you're doing.
I see what you're saying and if I understand you correctly then based on your comments I'm beginning to wonder if the question was worth asking at all. You're right my model doesn't solve anything and is worthless in that regard. It was more a practice in observation and attempting to simplify an impossibly complex subject that resorted to over generalizations. Ah well, this was mostly just a product of me being bored anyways.snip.