Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Xyzz]

no reason :D
I think it's kind of a hobby of his... acquire controllers, take them apart, document results. All in the name of science!

 

[Apasher]

How do you play against Marth on small stages?

 

[Bones0]

How do you play against Marth on small stages?

By small stages, I'm assuming you mean YS and FoD. I like to bully him with shines, and once you get him scared enough to shield, start grabbing him. Don't mess around on plats as much as you might on DL or BF, and know what percents you can start getting upward KOs from uthrow uair or usmash so you're not building unnecessary percent. Learn to ledge dash.

 

[eternisedDragon]

Is it just me or do high level Foxes almost never opt to shinegrab? Why is that the case, because to my mind shinegrabs seem to be safer than grabs only?

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

i dont know if anyone wants to get caught shielding or sitting in their shield anymore since shielding is ****
its so quick that if you end doing an arial on someones shield just shine grab then and thats broken, pretty much nothing you cant do with fox

 

[FrootLoop]

An important difference between spacies shinegrab is that falco still gets a combo or at least huge positional advantage if the shine hits and the grab whiffs, but fox does not. The ability to confirm off of either part is really what makes falco's shinegrab so good, and fox really doesn't have that. In some few circumstances fox's shine will combo into the grab but those circumstances make other stuff better in that spot anyway.

 

[Apasher]

tl;dr "Because Fox is a bad character"

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

Isn't shine grab a decent mix up ?

 

[Jim Morrison]

An important difference between spacies shinegrab is that falco still gets a combo or at least huge positional advantage if the shine hits and the grab whiffs, but fox does not. The ability to confirm off of either part is really what makes falco's shinegrab so good, and fox really doesn't have that. In some few circumstances fox's shine will combo into the grab but those circumstances make other stuff better in that spot anyway.

If you shine them and whiff the grab, you still have them knocked on the ground and time enough to tech chase. I can guarantee you 100% that unless you are playing against a literal god or Armada, that they will not tech the shine if they get knocked over because they dropped their shield.
If it's a character like Sheik that gets knocked back, that's tough luck, but you have to compare the risk (getting a shine off which you can't convert) and reward (a grab which is almost always huge for Fox).
Shinegrab will remain one of the best mixups and shield pressures there are. Once you show your opponent you're very much capable of doing shinegrab (and even shine turnaround grab), they will start respecting your shield pressure and roll more. And then you can stop shinegrabbing and cover that.
It's all about adapting faster than your opponent.

How do you play against Marth on small stages?

Abuse the platforms, specifically the top platform. And never laser. You have to play aggresive horizontally and passive vertically (from above). Wait on the top platform for him to do something. Don't overcommit to moves.

 

[BTmoney]

Shine grabbing with fox is stupid good, because grabbing with fox is stupid good. Even if uair doesn't combo you get a positional gain and you can get underneath a lot of characters/all of them with timely bairs. Or you can maintain center stage.

 

[Bones0]

Shine grabbing with fox is stupid good, because grabbing with fox is stupid good. Even if uair doesn't combo you get a positional gain and you can get underneath a lot of characters/all of them with timely bairs. Or you can maintain center stage.

Or you can get shield grabbed before your grab comes out and get comboed to death.

 

[BTmoney]

Or you can get shield grabbed before your grab comes out and get comboed to death.

You like raining on my parade don't you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9gValB9Ksc

 

[Bones0]

You like raining on my parade don't you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9gValB9Ksc

If you have a fresh shine and can frame perfect shinegrab, go for it.

 

[BTmoney]

If you have a fresh shine and can frame perfect shinegrab, go for it.

Sure, if your opponent is grabbing you on the first frame possible in the first place, but that's not likely at all.

I wrote a longer post but nah. Frame advantage is frame advantage, take that as you will (and it's probably easier to do a perfect shine->grab with muscle memory than it is to grab on the first frame possible every time you get your shield hit). Secondly, I don't know how stale shine has to be before it matters and you become even or negative. But I would generally think you shouldn't be getting grabbed out of your shine->grabs. I'll ask Kadano because that's very useful information.

But either way normal grabbing before this situation can arise is still OP but once again this wraps into the pros and cons of shield pressure and how you should approach the character and MUs in general.

 

[unknown522]

dem smash variables

 

[Jim Morrison]

Or you can get shield grabbed before your grab comes out and get comboed to death.

In my whole life, I've never been grabbed out of shinegrab. Not only you have to be frame-perfect with shinegrab, they have to predict the shinegrab AND be frame perfect with it as well.
Shine turnaround grab though... I've been grabbed outta that.

 

[Lovage]

Or you can get shield grabbed before your grab comes out and get comboed to death.

what's the point of posting **** like this?

 

[Bones0]

what's the point of posting **** like this?

To point out that shine grabbing can be kinda risky.

 

[Pengie]

There are enough reversal options associated with doing a shine-grabs as a part of shield-pressure that it's nowhere near as safe as people make it out to be. Depending on the character, they range from meh to stupidly good.

Fox
-Buffer Full Jump out of shield after the shine (Fox's jump is so fast that he can actuallly get above his own grab range)
-Shine OoS (Might only work if they are spaced poorly)

Falco
-Shine OoS (Again, might only work if Fox spaced poorly)

Marth
-Take the shine in the air and grab as he slides out of range

Sheik
-Take the shine like Marth
-Might also be able to jump out like Fox

Not 100% on anyone else's specific options but as for universal options
-Shield grab (only works if stale, but this usually isn't much of an issue given how often most people use shine anyway; obviously grapple characters and zelda are excluded)
-Shield Drop (only applicable on platforms)

Obviously shine-grab is supposed to be a mixup, but it's a pretty high risk mixup given all of the ways that characters can not only get out of it, but turn a disadvantage into a small advantage at best, and a possible kill at worst.

EDIT:I stand corrected about the taking the shine part.

 

[eternisedDragon]

But Buffering a fulljump or anything right after a shine is kinda hard ~4 frames window whereas learning to shine-grab near frame perfektion is easy. Same goes for shine OoS and Marths/Sheiks grab and shield drops. Moreover shine OoS > everything except multishining
And to my mind, since you almost never get grabbed out of your shine-grab mix-up, it seems like shine-grabs >> grabs as a mix-up, because getting grabbed is like the only hard punish against foxs shield-pressure.

 

[Kadano]

Marth
-Take the shine in the air and grab as he slides out of range

That is actually not possible. Even if you hit him on his very first airborne frame, he lands too late for you to be in his grab range anymore.
If Marth DIs the shine straight down, he lands immediately, but he still slides too far away. He can jab, dtilt, B and dsmash in time, though (all tipper where applicable (and NTSC only of course)).

Marth can easily buffer a spotdodge or roll though. He can also ↑B out of it, but he has to be at least as frame-precise as Fox unless shine’s stale mod is below 0.9.

Oh, and let’s not forget about the best anti-shieldpressure tool: SSDI. Single SSDI+SASDI is enough for Marth to move out of Fox’s grab range.

 

[Pengie]

That is actually not possible. Even if you hit him on his very first airborne frame, he lands too late for you to be in his grab range anymore.
If Marth DIs the shine straight down, he lands immediately, but he still slides too far away. He can jab, dtilt, B and dsmash in time, though (all tipper where applicable (and NTSC only of course)).

Marth can easily buffer a spotdodge or roll though. He can also ↑B out of it, but he has to be at least as frame-precise as Fox unless shine’s stale mod is below 0.9.

Oh, and let’s not forget about the best anti-shieldpressure tool: SSDI. Single SSDI+SASDI is enough for Marth to move out of Fox’s grab range.

Oh cool thanks for correcting me there; out of curiousity would Marth/Sheik be able to dash after landing and JC/Boost Grab Fox as the grab is whiffing?

 

[Kadano]

Oh cool thanks for correcting me there; out of curiousity would Marth/Sheik be able to dash after landing and JC/Boost Grab Fox as the grab is whiffing?

Yes, easily.

 

[BTmoney]

Oh, and let’s not forget about the best anti-shieldpressure tool: SSDI. Single SSDI+SASDI is enough for Marth to move out of Fox’s grab range.

Thanks for the info btw!
I myself am pretty unfamiliar with shield SDI and shield ASDI. Where is the threshold to get SASDI away without rolling (and I assume you smash DI normally while in shield stun).

But now I'm a bit confused on the logistics. Would you have to be holding slighty away before you get hit to SASDI then move further away in the same direction once you're in shield stun to get the SSDI?

I suppose knowing whether or not ASDI/SASDI takes place on the first or last frame of hitstun/shieldstun of etc. would answer this. If it's on the first frame this would be an awkward motion.

 

[Kadano]

Where is the threshold to get SASDI away without rolling (and I assume you smash DI normally while in shield stun).

There is no simple answer to this question, sorry.

But now I'm a bit confused on the logistics. Would you have to be holding slighty away before you get hit to SASDI then move further away in the same direction once you're in shield stun to get the SSDI?

You got it the wrong way round. First you have shield hitlag (different from normal hitlag for the victim as it is not affected by electricity) during which you can SSDI. Then, on the very last frame of hitlag, you input the SASDI direction that takes effect on the first frame of shield stun.

I suppose knowing whether or not ASDI/SASDI takes place on the first or last frame of hitstun/shieldstun of etc. would answer this. If it's on the first frame this would be an awkward motion.

SSDI is possible during every frame of hitlag save the very last one (as that is used for SASDI). To make this stuff a bit more clear to you as well as other players, I made a little .gif:

All buttons and state descriptions imply that they are held on that frame and take effect on the next one.

 

[BTmoney]

Delicious.

 

[ArtehFX]

This might sound dumb, but is there a good way to practice fox's shorthop? Thanks.

 

[BTmoney]

This might sound dumb, but is there a good way to practice fox's shorthop? Thanks.

Not really. Hard to learn but easy enough so once you figure it out it's not hard at all and you don't think about it. Literally every single player has been there so it's something you just gotta grind through, don't let it be a barrier. Tap Y faster and until it works.

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

ive been wondering how to shield sdi since asdi simply isnt enough to get into a better position
for foxs shine, wud you do the same just as you wud sdi'ing a shine?
i saw the gif and its kinda what i thought wud happen only i didnt know the sdi input wasnt tilting your shield lol
and that gif was moving too fast for me so i had to watch it like 20 times to read all the inputs for person in shield
what does it mean if i roll instead of sdi i hit on shield

 

[ArtehFX]

Not really. Hard to learn but easy enough so once you figure it out it's not hard at all and you don't think about it. Literally every single player has been there so it's something you just gotta grind through, don't let it be a barrier. Tap Y faster and until it works.

Will do, thanks for the advice.

 

[Kadano]

ive been wondering how to shield sdi since asdi simply isnt enough to get into a better position
for foxs shine, wud you do the same just as you wud sdi'ing a shine?
i saw the gif and its kinda what i thought wud happen only i didnt know the sdi input wasnt tilting your shield lol
and that gif was moving too fast for me so i had to watch it like 20 times to read all the inputs for person in shield
what does it mean if i roll instead of sdi i hit on shield

I’m not sure I get what you’re saying. If you smash the control stick too early and thus roll, you move out of shine’s range on the second frame of the roll. If you smash the control stick too late (during “guarddamage 18 92”, the last frame of shield stun, or later), you’ll also escape given you rolled within the first 4 frames possible.

At the end of the roll after the shine and before the grab, Fox has at least 6 frames advantage (more if you didn’t roll asap).

If the .gif is too fast for you, there’s always gifexploder.com. You can also download the animation and use FastStone Image Viewer (Create → Multi Page File Splitter) or similar programs to split it into individual frames. I just didn’t want to upload all individual frames as that would have taken a lot of screen space.

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

yea i understand you, i just dont understand how hax is getting so far behind mew2king while he does jabs, he can punish a jab with a behind the back grab sometimes
and how many frames do you get to sdi for a shine

 

[omgwtfToph]

I’m not sure I get what you’re saying. If you smash the control stick too early and thus roll, you move out of shine’s range on the first frame of the roll. If you smash the control stick too late (during “guarddamage 18 92”, the last frame of shield stun, or later), you’ll also escape given you rolled within the first 4 frames possible.

At the end of the roll after the shine and before the grab, Fox has at least 6 frames advantage (more if you didn’t roll asap).

If the .gif is too fast for you, there’s always gifexploder.com. You can also download the animation and use FastStone Image Viewer (Create → Multi Page File Splitter) or similar programs to split it into individual frames. I just didn’t want to upload all individual frames as that would have taken a lot of screen space.

roll has startup frames (3 of them iirc) that are punishable tho. and I don't think you start moving til those are over. so you'd get hit

 

[Kadano]

roll has startup frames (3 of them iirc) that are punishable tho. and I don't think you start moving til those are over. so you'd get hit

I’m sorry, I meant to write “second frame”. Even if Fox is as close to him as possible while standing still, from frame 2 of his roll on Marth is out of his shine range (without shield SDI of any sort).

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

thats a hella tight window for rolling away to avoid the follow up from the fox, and also tight for not getting hit by the shine when trying to roll
also is it easy to shield smash di,
whats that marths goal in a fast situation like shine on shield?

 

[Kadano]

also is it easy to shield smash di,
whats that marths goal in a fast situation like shine on shield?

It’s really hard to say. If Marth correctly predicts Fox’s shine, it’s a 3 frame window and kinda easy. But if Fox knows about this habit, he can delay his shine to make Marth roll, which usually puts him in a worse position.
There are so many factors and options in these kind of situations that it’s pretty much impossible to make general statements. If there is a specific situation in a video, I can write about what would have worked in that situation. Marth’s goal when being shield pressured is to put distance between him and Fox again without being in lag. SSDI is a decent tool to get there as it makes it harder for Fox to continue with his position abuse.

 

[BTmoney]

Honestly as a space animal when I'm getting my shield pressured I just buffer a roll. It's worked very well for me vs every spacie I've ever played. Sure it can be baited (which doesn't happen very often) or they can make a guess but it's better than getting pillared/shield stabbed or shine grabbed by Fox. Smart rolling is underutilized imo.

Doesn't quite work for Marth though because his roll sucks and it's pretty easy to track. I wonder how effective light shielding actually is with Marth vs. shield pressure.

edit:
buffering jumping OOS with fox is also very good vs. shield pressure

 

[Coffeeblack]

Its very easy to bait rolls out of pressure lol especially if its your go to option

 

[Jim Morrison]

Keep rolling until people punish you for it. Then adapt/

 

[Wenbobular]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=jtH_6r1tKBA&t=1017
I don't know what I was doing this stock but it was AWESOME