Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Brookman]

Have some confidence in your thought processes and after you master your tech skills it will translate into your play style.

 

[ViciousEnd]

I think Jesiah told me the pivot grab on Fox has to be done at something like 21-23% percent to beat no/slight back di. If he doesn't you can either shine or tech out. If he does get the grab after that you can expect another grab or two, then the up tilts. I smash di those with the trajectory of the knockback to give me a better chance to be way the hell out of his range so I can at least force a more favorable tech chase situation to escape back to neutral.

 

[JPOBS]

the No DI->shine/jump/tech trick can be done as low as 20% (after the throw)

and yea, pivot grabbing beats it. But the alternative is to keep di'ing and get cg'd for free, atleast this trick might make the marth mess up the pivot somehow.

 

[ViciousEnd]

That and if you don't di, or only slight di, the percents where they can actually chain grab you drop significantly as opposed to full di'ing. Plus reacting to the u tilt and trying to smash di it isn't actually that hard. Di'ing with the hit in general helps a ton when trying to transition to a tech chase position over getting combo'd to hell position.

EDIT:

It's a little early but Happy New Years Fox boards, let's actually try to learn how to do insane combos with Fox on 2011.

 

[unknown522]

lucky vs axe MM made me sad.

I wanted to cry a little.

edit: just watched replicate vs axe. Personally, I liked this set much more than lucky's.

Do you want advice?

 

[omgwtfToph]

I want good Falcon advice but didn't get any. wah T_T

 

[Tomacawk]

okay so I've been thinking about the falcon matchup and I figure I'd write up some advice for fox players who aren't named raynex, lovage, jman, or silent wolf and may be having trouble with good/top falcons, because I know I am. I played bigd kind of recently and he ran the train on me, and when I played nesn00b at jab2 the same thing happened. Falcon is one of my best matchups but I find myself helpless against top falcons. also I plan on becoming more active at being useful in this thread because raynex gave me hella advice when I was in the key "newb becoming decent" phase so I figure I'd give back to him/the community by helping people worse than me so great players don't have to keep answering the same questions.
dash dancing-falcon's dd is insane. approaching him is very scary, especially against great falcons, and if he has a little room to run around then you're gunna find yourself getting grabbed and owned. I have found that in this matchup I shoot lasers more than any other matchup except for puff because I cannot come close to beating falcon unless he is approaching me. if you do approach him, nair/dair **** him, but make sure you push him to the brink of the ledge before you leave the ground otherwise he'll run out of range and punish you. if you whiff your aerial and he's coming in buffer a spot dodge until he catches onto it. unpunished spot dodge=free shine. also I find that shine is a top approach. another mix up you can do is empty short hop to waveland. if they start bairing you when they run from your approaches, start shield approaching or getting close to them and backing off and lasering. if he's approaching you, beat his nair with your nair or run and backair, or jump and waveland on a platform above you then drop onto him and punish. falcon approaching you is almost always in your advantage. if they're over shooting you and grabbing you rather than approaching with nair/knee/uair, then you should bair as you're running away and take the free hit. this is way easier said than done on small maps like yoshi's. also, if you shield his approach, usmash oos is almost always a free hit unless he's approached you with a low hitting uair or knee. wait for the gentleman before you usmash, or wd oos/fullhop waveland on a plat if he dashes away from you

platform play when falcon is above you-beware of stomps, they can poke you through low platforms and beat you if you're rising up. I don't think upair is a good choice in this situation. I have found that bair/nair work really well. so does shine under the plat, then waveland off the plat. you can follow up if it hit them and you can be safe if it hits their shield. one of my favorite ways to kill falcon, especially on yoshi's, is to uthrow at high % to a platform, waveland, and usmash where he techs. if you're fast enough it's inescapable unless he misses the tech and slides off the plat from momentum. rising dair is also nice, it leads to grab or shine. If you always aim it for a straight up tech or missed tech, it l cancels fast enough against falcon's roll that if he techs a direction you can jc grab him. the only way it can fail is if you're too slow or if they sdi really well out of the dair.

platform play when falcon is below you-this can be pretty scary. his uair has good priority and will beat or trade with your dair. if you're teching on a plat and he's near you, it's best to light shield and wait for his attack to hit you. if they waveland, you should spotdodge or wd oos asap and slide off the plat. if he hits your shield with a uair/stomp/knee, you should wd oos or dair oos if he landed on the plat with you. try to be smart about how you tech on a platform. if he combos you onto a plat and does a running short hop with spacing that makes his uair hit the front half of the plat but not the back half, tech away, etc. never let your teching become instinct, always think about it.

if you got grabbed-if you get out of it with your stock, consider yourself lucky. never let your teching become instinct, always think about it. NEVER LET YOUR TECHING BECOME INSTINCT. Seriously. You'll get fro'd every time. Here's a basic run-down of how falcon tech chasing works. If you tech away or towards he can regrab you off of reaction time. If you tech up he can still regrab out of reaction but it is very hard. Not teching is almost always the safest choice but if it becomes predictable it is a terrible choice. if you manage to get out of the tech chase, you've only done half the battle. a lot of times falcon can misread your tech and still punish you. this is where you need to decide if you should buffer a roll, buffer a spotdodge, jump, or dash. This is entirely depending on where he is in relation to you. for instance, if he guessed tech away and you teched towards, you're pretty much safe. dash away and if he comes after you shffl a retreating bair. if he guessed tech in place and you teched a direction, he may be fast enough to get you again. buffer a spotdodge until he begins reading it, then usmash after your tech or jump and waveland and get out of there. you can even utilt (it ***** falcon, by the way. utilt beats his everything) if you can, read for what the falcon is reading you for and mindgame him. For instance, if he guessed tech in place 2 times prior and you never did, it's usually a safe bet to tech in place the third time. Contrastingly, if he just regrabbed you because you teched a direction, it's probably a safe bet he's expecting you to tech straight up the next throw. if you didn't and he regrabbed you again, it's almost a positive bet he's going to guess that you will tech straight up this third time unless he is really in your head. teching is a swirling vortex of mindgames.

edge guarding-this is why fox has the advantage in the matchup. you OWN falcon off the ledge. if you can, grab the ledge. if he's recovering from below you, use your ledge invincibility and ledge hop nair until he either dies or is in a position where you know you can bair him or shine spike him. if you're not on the ledge and he recovers high, you need to put your back to him and go out and bair him. make sure you wait until he's close enough and committed enough where you can land on the stage after you bair. if you missed early in his up b you can land, auto cancel the bair into a dsmash, and cover the ledge. if he recovers high and you're on the ledge, get up. if he recovers past you, jump up and bair him. if he's setting up to sweetspot the ledge or land just in front of the ledge, get away from the ledge a tiny bit and forward tilt angled towards the ledge, this will punish whichever choice he made if you time it right and sets up a far easier edge guard the next time.

recovering-avoid using your side b. it's a free stomp to knee, and anything out prioritizes it. it's almost never smart to side b through somebody. side b to sweetspot the ledge or short side b to fake him out and grab the ledge. up b angles can be tricky. it's usually safest to downward angle into the ledge but his ftilt can beat this, as can him grabbing the ledge. if you recover low, angle your up b hard into the stage to avoid his utilt. ledge tech when possible. you can also up b straight up if you aren't hugging the wall to get around his move and then grab the ledge. I hope this helped.

 

[Palpi]

If you have teching alot, Di away and miss tech is a good mix up imo.

 

[omgwtfToph]

that was brassica napus

i gotta work on the edgeguarding. probably gonna watch a ton of videos and write stuff down

i think i focused too much on offensive stuff when i was playing SS and not enough on defensive stuff - like figuring out how he was trying to techchase me, or figuring out better ways to avoid his tech baiting tricks. interesting that you say that you should use lasers to get falcon to start approaching, because I always thought that aggressive is the best way to use fox in this matchup - the more you attack, the better, kind of thing (provided you are attacking smartly). hmmmmm. i gotta experiment the next time i get to play mach dash or another good falcon

 

[earla]

1. I sometimes can shine fox or falco out of their up b after it's intial startup (when its in motion). The timing seems very strict. How frame tight is the timing? does spacing the shine have anything to do with it?

2. shine bair/aerials - Where do i space the shine, how frame tight?

3. best way to punish falco double laser from the edge recovery?

4. i'm aware nair shine on shine is safe. is dair/uair/bair shine safe on shield too?

5. i'm quite familar and solid with my tech and fox as a character. i want to be sure i've covered all fundamentals though. could someone give me a list of ESSENTIAL COMBOS i should practice against each of the top tiers?

thanks so much

 

[Fried Ice Cream]

1. I sometimes can shine fox or falco out of their up b after it's intial startup (when its in motion). The timing seems very strict. How frame tight is the timing? does spacing the shine have anything to do with it?

I don't know, I think it has more to do with spacing and invincibility frames.

3. best way to punish falco double laser from the edge recovery?

I had trouble with this until someone told me just what to do. If a Falco likes to do it more often, anticipate it near the ledge, wait for it and shine him while he's jumping. You just gotta time the shine right. Shield > jumping into shine also works well. If it's from far away, dunno, just take it. At least powershield one.

5. i'm quite familar and solid with my tech and fox as a character. i want to be sure i've covered all fundamentals though. could someone give me a list of ESSENTIAL COMBOS i should practice against each of the top tiers?

thanks so much

It's not so much about essential combos, but more being able to know what you should do and extending it yourself. There's a few of the fundamental combos, but those are like the uthrow > utilt > regrab/stuff, etc.

Waveshining into grabs is very key, so being able to land a Down-air is vital. It also sets up your up-smashes and lots of kills.
Spacing is a lot more important than knowing combos.

 

[Shaeman111]

Yeah against the space animals... if you don't space well, you're getting shined (aka... fuxd up)
so comboing well isn't quite as important cause if you don't space.... YOU'LL get comboed. So... it's up to you.
Have good combos and get *****, or learn to space well, and learn that you'll learn combos naturally while you're NOT getting *****.

And if you don't space well against falcon, yer gettin da grab. then yer gettin da knee.

Many times.

 

[Fried Ice Cream]

I know spacing is important and I hear it all the time "space your nairs" but what exactly do they mean? Hitting with the outmost part of the hitbox? I usually can't see hitboxes in the game and I'm having a hard time predicting how disjointed my B-air is and where to place it.

Can someone explain me a good technique to practice spacing or how to know if you're doing it right?

 

[Brookman]

Can someone explain me a good technique to practice spacing or how to know if you're doing it right?

*face palm*


just get out and play some tournaments/meet good players in your area and get regular play sessions in with them. Watch top fox players like mango/jman/m2k.

 

[Rubyiris]

wuts a spacing i just push buttons.

 

[Fried Ice Cream]

*face palm*


just get out and play some tournaments/meet good players in your area and get regular play sessions in with them. Watch top fox players like mango/jman/m2k.

:s Do you know any good Melee players in Belgium?

 

[Teczer0]

:s Do you know any good Melee players in Belgium?

You should try the regional boards. I'm pretty terrible with geography so I'm gonna hope I picked the right board and say:

http://www.smashboards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=226

If not just go to

http://www.smashboards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=89

And select your region.

 

[Shaeman111]

i love being close to someone's shield as fox/falco and rising SH nair their shield.... but DI backwards during the whole attack. can't be shield grabbed, am i rightt? <3

 

[omgwtfToph]

3. best way to punish falco double laser from the edge recovery?

If you're near the ledge, run up to it and shield, and shine OOS after the first laser. Falco will die. Yeah you can also just crouch by the ledge and shine after one laser, but this puts you at the mercy of Falco's dair I guess.

If you're far away and you think Falco is going to shoot both lasers low, then you can run over to the ledge and full jump a nair to hit him, then run off and shine him since he'll be below the ledge.

 

[RaynEX]

Not sure if anyone saw it, but thanks TOMACAWK for that monstrously in-depth repost of your Falcon analysis.

Good ****.

 

[JPOBS]

i love being close to someone's shield as fox/falco and rising SH nair their shield.... but DI backwards during the whole attack. can't be shield grabbed, am i rightt? <3

no it cant.

dont do it all the time though, it effectively ends shield pressure and its only useful for baiting a shield grab. if your opponent knows you always do it, they'll just wait for it then do something oos or just gtfo.

mixups, always, mixups.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Not sure if anyone saw it, but thanks TOMACAWK for that monstrously in-depth repost of your Falcon analysis.

Good ****.

ehh. *shakes hand sideways*

- unknown522

 

[unknown522]

nah, just trollin.

It's pretty good.

I want good Falcon advice but didn't get any. wah T_T

oh man. I'm pretty bad at that matchup. It's one of those matchups I play by theory alone (like peach <_<). Though I should've beaten hax, but the goddamn cloud and goddamn barrel helped his *** so many times.

I just try not to let him move by overshooting n-airs after he whiffs a n-air/b-air.

If on a small level, then I b-air a lot and just make sure I don't get grabbed. CCing his n-air is really good and sometimes u-smashing through his n-air/b-air is good too, if you can do it. Once landing a hit, never let him regain his space. Control him with knockdowns, waveshines, combos, etc and make sure he doesn't get any breathing room. Small stages are amazing vs falcon. IMO: brinstar is better than KJ64 in the matchup. FD is amazing if you can get it.

 

[JPOBS]

yo don't even start with me about the randall helping falcon players. i swear randall is gay for falcon.

 

[unknown522]

haha, yeah.

 

[earla]

when is the fox reverse shine ledgehop bair useful?

what are foxes safest ledge options to return to stage?

is the ledgestall firefox safe?

 

[unknown522]

^
1. never
2. ledge WD
3. no.

1. I sometimes can shine fox or falco out of their up b after it's intial startup (when its in motion). The timing seems very strict. How frame tight is the timing? does spacing the shine have anything to do with it?

2. shine bair/aerials - Where do i space the shine, how frame tight?

3. best way to punish falco double laser from the edge recovery?

4. i'm aware nair shine on shine is safe. is dair/uair/bair shine safe on shield too?

5. i'm quite familar and solid with my tech and fox as a character. i want to be sure i've covered all fundamentals though. could someone give me a list of ESSENTIAL COMBOS i should practice against each of the top tiers?

thanks so much

1. yes, spacing is important. Dunno how frame tight it is. The shine hitbox only lasts for 1 frame, so it's not worth doing. You're bound to mess it up.

2. I don't understand this question.

3. what toph said. Also, you can:
- jump over the laser and n-air/b-air/shine him.
- run past him, then double jump back into him and hit him with something.

4. depends on the height of your aerial.

5. be creative. There's lots of things that you can do. Make sure you combo out of your u-throw and follow-up on your shines.

 

[omgwtfToph]

my opponent pulled a massive comeback on me 2 days ago when i was up a stock in the last match of loser's finals because i decided to try the shine turnaround ledgehop bair bull**** and he read me for it >_>

ledge WD is the best thing ever ever ever and if you're feeling shaky on your techskill on a given day, just shine before it like Lucky does. it's still pretty much really safe

 

[unknown522]

pretty much

 

[Brookman]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9125788&postcount=1


zoso's fox vs. hax, he plays very well here.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=101710

 

[earla]

whats best way to gauge %'s when your opponent is going to need to tech to be ready to tech chase?
or is this something u just get a feel for with more experience.?

 

[Brookman]

Can we talk about auto cancelling??

I know it was brought up recently but I guess I have never truly understood it.


for example:


Reverse Spin Kick
Button: Away Tilt + A (Away C-Stick)
Damage: 8-15%
Speed: Very High
Priority: Medium
Range: Medium
Start Time: Very fast
Lag Time: Significant without L-canceling. Not as cleanly L-cancelable as the
neutral-aerial, but still somewhat fast.
Knockback: Medium
Total frames: 39
Hit frames: 4-19
IASA: 38
Auto-cancel: <3 24>
Land lag: 20
L-canceled: 10



Can anyone explain this/ is there any application??

 

[ChivalRuse]

That has to do with a whole lot of calculations that probably take too much time.

Better to just test out various auto-cancels on your own. Yoshi's a pretty good example because there are ways to get all of his aerials to auto-cancel in useful ways (even dair auto cancels if you do it in a full jump).

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

who's everyone's current 'favorite' fox?

Also, who does everyone think the 'best' fox is? besides mango if you'd say him.

 

[GOD!]

Auto canceling is when you land during the animation of an attack, and upon landing the animation immediately ends. Moves usually have auto cancel frames at the beginning or the end of their animations.

So say you're fox. You double jumped after someone and naired them, then you try and fall onto a platform.

If you land during the autocancel frames of the nair (49-57 iirc) then you receive no lag upon landing. If you land on the frames before that (say frame 46 or 47) and you l-cancel, you would still have the 7 frames of lag that comes with an l-cancel.

Auto canceled moves are just used to make you go faster. I honestly don't know if there are any applications for fox. I'm pretty sure sheik auto cancel full hop nair is pretty useful though.
Idk about all the frame stuff, just trying to recall them from memory.

Also mango is favorite and best. Besides that.. jman = best, lucky=favorite.

 

[Kanelol]

favorite fox: tang or cactuar, maybe sw
best fox (aside from mango): I guess jman or something :/

 

[JPOBS]

wtf is a reverse spin kick?

favorite fox: raynex <3
best fox: TURBO LUCKY!!

 

[Teczer0]

Favorite fox: Cactuar or Jman
Best Fox: m2k

 

[ChivalRuse]

Cactuar might be my favorite.

 

[Palpi]

Favorite: Swiftbass or Eggm

Best: Mew2king