Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[ShroudedOne]

True, they do. Let's say that I have a aggressive-ish run at them and hope for the best style that doesn't involve taking the time to laser because I'm horrible at patience.

 

[Cactuar]

The conversation that could be had around how much depth the concept of player styles has would take quite a bit of time.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I couldn't help it!

 

[the real jman]

Man just do what u like to do and make it work for u

Example sometimes I no a bair would be better in a Certain Situation but I nair anyway cause I love that ****ing move it might work it might not

What I'm trying to say is do what u like to do get really good at what u like to do and just maybe u might change the metagame :-)

 

[unknown522]

Jman's grammar is too good!

 

[the real jman]

U tryin to be funny unknown522 we ant in ****ing school lol

 

[unknown522]

Yo school all dai son

 

[BBoyindo]

Sup guys. I have my first tournament ever tomorrow? I main Marth and secondary Fox, so any tips on what characters to use fox for or anything? Help would be much appreciated

 

[Strong Badam]

Trying to main Fox now.

 

[Bones0]

Sup guys. I have my first tournament ever tomorrow? I main Marth and secondary Fox, so any tips on what characters to use fox for or anything? Help would be much appreciated

I would stick with Marth if you're more comfortable with him. If you're just starting out, matchups won't matter at all. When you're playing friendlies, try to play all matchups equally between Marth and Fox, and then down the road you'll have two options for every matchup instead of just one. That's my approach to secondaries anyway. There are some matchups I don't play Fox as, but that's because I play 3 characters so it's just not feasible for me to practice every matchup with every character.

 

[PGH Carroll]

Selllllllll outtttt

Actually I don't blame you. I used to play marth

@ strong_bad_177

 

[Bones0]

The funny thing about low tier mains switching to top tiers is they rarely place that much higher in tournament.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Trying to main Fox now.

If youre gonna sell out, at least do it right

 

[Divinokage]

The funny thing about low tier mains switching to top tiers is they rarely place that much higher in tournament.

Well that's because the same walls you are currently struggling with as a player are always there.

 

[S l o X]

that aint strawhats

 

[Strong Badam]

If youre gonna sell out, at least do it right

I still have some dignity.

The funny thing about low tier mains switching to top tiers is they rarely place that much higher in tournament.

Yeah it's so strange how you can do pretty respectably well with a bad character after 4 years of tournament experience with that character, and then do /better/ (even if only slightly) with a top tier after 0 years of such experience.
Funny.

 

[BBoyindo]

I would stick with Marth if you're more comfortable with him. If you're just starting out, matchups won't matter at all. When you're playing friendlies, try to play all matchups equally between Marth and Fox, and then down the road you'll have two options for every matchup instead of just one. That's my approach to secondaries anyway. There are some matchups I don't play Fox as, but that's because I play 3 characters so it's just not feasible for me to practice every matchup with every character.

Thanks man. The primary reason that i'm going is to play friendlies anyway. I've been playing this game for a very long time already, but the lack of tournament experience will probably still get my *** beat very badly

 

[Proskater]

If youre gonna sell out, at least do it right

lolol

Crimson <3

 

[Jim Morrison]

Sup guys. I have my first tournament ever tomorrow? I main Marth and secondary Fox, so any tips on what characters to use fox for or anything? Help would be much appreciated

Ik ga jou morgen helpen

 

[DerfMidWest]

Ive realized that all my fox does anymore is bair, utilt, and shine.
I blame shroudedone and his peachy ways.

 

[omgwtfToph]

Shield beats all of those moves. That's a problem

Trying to main Fox now.

God damn it. You're demoted, DK Advisor.

I speak the truth bro just advice that I learn when I played serious that I like to pass down

Fun fact: Jesus is recorded as saying the phrase 'I tell you the truth' 78 times in the New Testament.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Lol why would i hit things that are on the ground?
I just run around until they jump.
Then i use utilt and bair and shine.

 

[Strong Badam]

I am DK Advisor forever, Foreign Affairs.

 

[Lovage]

SELL OUt


sigh i dont blame you either....maybe i do

 

[knightpraetor]

yeah switching char rarely helps because as far as I can tell every char has walls in their development. So oftentimes switching removes 4 walls you had wasted 3 months trying to figure out a way around and then inserts 72 others of which most are probably easily solved, but it will take you a long time to do so.

that said, when i switch to fox/falco i rarely feel like there are big walls in most matchups..but falco vs peach and the dittos seemed difficult to me...on the other hand, peach...i feel like i'm ramming my head into so many walls since i started secondarying her.

also that article on choking was amazing. It really made me wonder whether it is preferable to learn explicitly or implicitly. I have definitely known that feeling of choking due to seeing new things that I don't recognize. THese days I go to a lot of work to explicitly learn...it's not enough to just 3 stock my opponent if i don't understand why I did it. Otherwise I have trouble with forgetting the feeling or not being able to recall under stress what i need to do.

 

[Bones0]

You can't learn something new implicitly, which was sort of the point in the whole difference between choking and panicking. You can't just tell a new player to just "feel out" how to ledgedash. The only way to engrain that feeling so you can apply it implicitly is to train it explicitly. The player's brain must go through each motion and timing over and over again until it becomes second nature.

I think in a way it relates to conscious competence. Sticking with ledgedashing as an example, you could say when you are first learning to ledgedash you are moving towards conscious competence. Then once it becomes second nature, it becomes unconscious competence. Choking then, could be described as your brain trying to revert back to conscious competence, but ultimately failing the same way you did back when you were first transitioning to that stage. Everything will look like it's almost in place, but there will be that small level of discomfort that only conscious actions produce. You're a lot more likely to trip if I tell you you walk weird than if I hadn't said anything at all.

Panicking could be seen as the brain reverting even further back to unconscious incompetence. Not only are you not aware of what you're doing, but you're doing the wrong thing. If someone used to always do regular getup from the ledge and hold shield because it was easy and relatively safe vs. bad players, they might refer back to that when they were just sent onto the ledge and are panicking instead of unconsciously ledgedashing on like they've done a million times before.

 

[knightpraetor]

i feel like when new players are learning when to attack and defend and shield and roll they do most of that learning implicitly. Later on they are forced to break those habits and break down when and where things are good or they become too easy to condition.

 

[Bones0]

I don't even view bad players as having learned when to attack/shield/roll at all. If they had learned when to do those things, they wouldn't be bad. They have a pattern of attacking, of course, but it's based on unconscious and incompetent habits. If you ask a bad player why they rolled, they have no idea.* Then they become aware that their habits are bad (conscious incompetence), and begin working on developing habits based on what will actually produce good results (conscious competence).

*I actually see what you're saying. I wrote out the rest of my explanation to show how I was viewing it, but perhaps you could view all learning as unconscious learning as implicit, and all conscious learning as explicit. That actually makes sense given my previous post about how panicking is reverting to a level unconscious incompetence (ledgestand to hold shield is something learned implicitly without any thought or reasoning).


So I guess to address your original question, "Is it better to learn implicitly?", I would say, no; or at least, I would say no because it isn't possible. Learning implicitly means no thought went into it. Players who have learned to roll implicitly make ****ty roll decisions because they haven't gone through the process of explicitly figuring out which situations are good to roll in, and which are not. The one thing that seems like it could be an exception is stuff that is entirely mechanical. The only problem is I don't know how you could ever implicitly (or unconsciously) learn to perform an advanced technique.

I could see how the most basic human mechanics could be considered as being learned implicitly. For instance, even people who have been blind their entire lives intuitively know to smile when they are happy, and babies are chewing food before they are even capable of being conscious or competent of what they are doing (as far as I know). But these are things heavily ingrained in human genetics, so we are literally preprogrammed to do them without requiring conscious competence as a step before unconscious competence. Perhaps this is also why some of the most natural things in the world become so severely awkward when you think about them. It's because you never took that journey through conscious incompetence. It might also just be the fact that you've been doing it longer than you've been WDing or serving tennis balls though. So yeah, I don't think you could implicitly learn advanced techs because we have no natural sense of what is a good or bad WD. We have to think about what outcome we desire, and then we adjust our behavior to match the desired outcome. People don't have to worry about how they chew their food or how they smile because it comes naturally. And for people who want to change how they smile or chew their food (for whatever reason), they would have to begin with taking that first initial step into conscious incompetence just like with advanced techs because they'd be superseding natural behavior.

 

[knightpraetor]

not really much in terms of response, but i liked your last paragraph...i hadn't thought of how that played into innately implicitly learned human behaviors

 

[DerfMidWest]

Bair is the best move.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Trying to main Fox now.

Yes, young goyim, come join your Fox brothers, we are underrepresented!

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

changing mains really late into your smash career = bad idea

then again, Fox is way better than DK

then again, everyone knows how to play against fox

 

[Divinokage]

Then again.. does smash even have careers? lol. Do whatever you want.

 

[crush]

Strog bafs a Bk ne way lul
like 4ft tall nOob

Great posst cage

 

[the real jman]

Bair is the best move.

Lies nair baby
À

 

[omgwtfToph]

^

10 jmans

edit: so jman what you up to these days anyway

 

[EWC]

space bear is the best space animal.

 

[commonyoshi]

Ok, so recently I've been experimenting with different methods of short hop nairing. I always used to just nair as soon as possible off the short hop and then fast fall, but now I'm trying out short hop, fast falling, and then doing the nair on the way down. It seems like both styles have their own subtle advantages.

Does anyone actually use both methods in their game and has any information on which option is more appropriate in a given scenario?

 

[Bones0]

You can't SHFF before aerialing as space animals.

 

[commonyoshi]

o_O ??????