• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

Fortress | Sveet

▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
Joined
Dec 21, 2005
Messages
16,256
Location
Northern IL
hey I got a set in Japan recorded of me playing at what I think is roughly my best, anyone wanna watch or criticize?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_lcVrz3mI4

edit: btw yeah I know I forgot I had an up-B to recover lol. in my defense side-B was working really really well
Don't play the vertical so much, you have to play footsies with falcon on FD.

Work on using more efficient punishes; you do a lot of things that are technical/flashy that can be done as good or better with less inputs.

I suggest using the shine stall ledge approach less. Your double jump = your stock, don't roll the dice.

You don't have to shine falcon's shield. Try it.
 

omgwtfToph

Smash Master
Joined
May 28, 2008
Messages
4,486
Location
San Jose
I honestly couldn't believe you lost. I kept expecting you to sort of get rid of all of the weird things you were doing and go into serious mode with textbook punishes, but it never happened.
I'm really good friends with Gucci and in my heart I kind of wanted him to go on to fight M2K in GF, so I think I didn't want to win as hard as I could have. Still I feel like I got outplayed, particularly in game 5.
 

unknown522

Some guy
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
8,047
Location
Toronto, Ontario
Tero vs Yomi (sheik)

Game 1
- First stock was just failing execution. It looked like you knew what you were going for in terms of punishes, but just messed up and it cost you a stock. There’s not much to say for that. I guess you could’ve used your shield more to scout what he was going to do so that you wouldn’t run into those d-smashes

- During your second stock, you messed up a bit. Shining him onto the stage. There was one thing though; when you hit the n-air at 23% and you stuffed his jump. You then shined him instead of u-tilt/n-air/w/e. It worked out though, since you baited his d-smash after and grabbed him. Your punish was weak again though, since you did that platform waveland tech chase to grab him, instead of comboing 2x u-air or something. Basically, you put more effort there to get less of a reward.

- 1:02 – u-throw -> u-air would’ve probably killed at that percent on YS. The b-air wasn’t a bad choice still, if you had chased him out with a second b-air while he was offstage. Since he had a jump still and you took the ledge in that way, had he been more aware of the situation, he could’ve made it onto the stage for free. Meh, it worked out anyway though, so w/e

- After the opponent spawned and you wore off his invincibility. I probably would’ve shielded to see if he would commit to something. That dash attack he did was pretty risky, if you either shielded or jumped around more

- On the 3rd stock, it looks like just tech rolling away seems really good in PAL

- Your 4th stock is a prime example of how important it is to have these 3 components in your gameplay:
• CC
• Good shield game. Especially oos
• Good movement
The reason I say this is because you get hit out of your movement a lot, never CC’d anything so far, and You either get stuck in your shield or just get grabbed. You lost many chances to punish your opponent because you were lacking in those areas (at least in the first match anyway). There were too many various reasons as to why in different situations, so it’s hard to get into specifics. If you ask me though, it’s usually a case of either DDing too long, and too far away from the opponent, or not DDing for long enough. You lose chances to punish, or he just hits you because of what I just said.

In the sheik vs fox matchup especially, you really have to not miss your punishes or drop combo opportunities, otherwise you’ll probably get ***** if the sheik is really good and playing half-decent.
- The summary of game 1 is that you pretty much miss a lot of chances to start a combo. You get hit out of your movement a lot, and don’t really use your shield much (which isn’t bad though, if you’re not getting hit). When you do, you don’t really move out of it too much. You didn’t CC anything at all from what I recall. The opponent was spacing better too I guess. You edgeguarded him pretty well though, but I think you knocked him off the stage like twice only.

If I were to go more into detail in the match about where/when/why you get hit, I would probably just be repeating the stuff that I summarized a billion times.


Game 2

- From the first stock, it looks like you were moving better oos. It still looks like he had no problems landing hits on you though. There were a lot of missed punishes on your part, like he would out something laggy like d-smash or dash attack, but then you wouldn’t respond accordingly and completely throw away the punish. Drill, grab, falling u-air (when you can), up-smash, or u-tilt should be your go-to options when there is a free punish. Shine too I guess. Basically, just don’t b-air when you don’t have to.
It seems like you need to be more aware of what the opponent is doing. Look here at 3:18. He did a SH n-air and went right over you. You could’ve hit him with almost anything in your moveset, but then you ran away. Not only that, but he was near the edge, so you may have been able to score a potential gimp. Anyways, you dashed away and then he tried to follow you with a dash attack and you still continued to run away. That was one of the best opportunities to land a good combo on him. 3:08 would’ve been my first example, but that looked like a technical error. 3:09, you did the shine after he CC -> d-smashed your b-air. Even if he didn’t CC it, shine probably wouldn’tve been a good choice anyway, since he would be airborne.
- 3:21, you did n-air -> shield on his shield. So he grabbed you for free. I’m guessing you were expecting him to n-air oos. Even still, there was no reason to not shine after that n-air. Anyways, that costed you 40%, but fortunately he missed the edgeguard

- 3:33, you shield grabbed the dash attack and did u-throw. That was good, but then you b-air’d him off the stage from that far away. Giving up your chance for a longer combo, and no chance to edgeguard him as well based on your position. U-air would’ve been way better in that situation, or b-throwing him off the stage since sheik has crappy air mobility.

- 3:37, keeping him locked down at the edge was really good, but you needed to position you moves better. Hitting that weak b-air could’ve gotten you CC -> grabbed, and all those whiffed u-tilts could’ve also gotten you gimped pretty easily.

- 3:47, I’m not sure why you u-smashed there at that percent on that stage, but it almost did hit though. But this timestamp from here to about 4:00 or so, is another example of DDing too long, and also DDing too far away. There were some chances to attack him, especially when he was on, or coming off from the platform. Fortunately, he happened to whiff that jab when you were going in with n-air

- 4:10 was a free grab when he whiffed that n-air. You may have been able to try and gimp him based on where you were positioned

- 4:16, You were in the perfect spot to punish that roll. But then you shot a laser.

- 4:18, you could’ve u-air’d him through that n-air at the edge. That may have potentially been heavy damage, or a quick gimp.

- 4:20, free u-air when he went on the platform. Or drill if you really wanted. You then outspaced his dash attack when he came down, and didn’t grab him for some reason. And then, he messed up a WD or something, and you were way too slow on the punish. But fortunately he did a panic d-smash facing the wrong way, so you stuffed that

- 4:41 he hit you with a weak n-air when you were at 0%. Landed right in front of you and you did nothing to punish it. Afterwards, you ran down from the platform and he followed doing a reverse b-air on your shield. You could’ve shined oos on him since he didn’t f-air/low n-air.

- 4:46- 5:08 or so, There were so many whiffed moves on his part and many missed punishes on your part. You n-air at the wrong time almost always, or just don’t delay them at all. DDing way too long, even after he has whiffed dash attacks, or is throwing out d-smashes. Then he started doing f-airs, which you could’ve dash attacked under or something, but you still were DDing and didn’t even attempt to punish. Anyways, finally something happens and you get the stock.

- 5:25 why the n-air? Then he rolls into you and spotdodges and you n-air again. His percent wasn’t even that high or anything either.

- The last stock, it seems you’re trying to n-air -> shine him at like 90%+ 7:25. It didn’t make sense, but I’m guessing you thought he was going to be able to shield your n-air?


Games 3 and onwards, is pretty much the same stuff, but different stage.


Ending notes:

• Read the summary of game 1 and apply that to all of the matches, now that I have watched them.
• In general, it looks like you could use more drill. Punishing whiffs, coming down on/from platforms, full hoping over an attack that is directed in front of her (dash attack, grab, b-air sometimes, f-tilt [but he didn’t seem to use f-tilt much], jab, n-air).
• Better shield game
• More tilts and dash attack to try and force your way in on sheik. Sometimes DDing alone just won’t cut it. D-tilt for spacing/range and mid-percent combo starters. F-tilt for the speed/range ratio and either forcing knockdowns at higher percents, or for pushing the opponent off the stage to set up your edgeguards . U-tilt for the obvious combo starters, and anti-air. Dash attack for sneaking under aerials, and just an overall fast combo-starter. It’s kind of risky because it can get CC’d for a long time, but that’s why you try to do it when they are either in the air, or committed to something at mid-high percents.
• Probably one of the most important things you’re missing is DD-grab. It’s so simple and basic, but so gay. I don’t think I saw you even attempt do it once in the games I watched.


Anyways, good luck
 

Jim Morrison

Smash Authority
Joined
Aug 28, 2008
Messages
15,287
Location
The Netherlands
Agreed with what Bones said, your techs were very often in place. And to add to his point about U-smash: You tech-chase with that and miss a lot because he gets a shield up in time. Recognize that and instead do a grab next time, so he'll have to choose between dodging and shielding.

Other than that, it looks good, it's hard to play visibly smart against Falcon. Also the U-throw > U-tilt is hard if he DI's. Because of this, next time you grab him, DO NOT JAB HIM, just throw asap so he has less time to DI the U-throw.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
Bones (Fox) vs. Epsilon/♥ (Peach)
Best of 7, no bans, DSRm

Critique anyone? :D I did way better than last time. I stopped missing all my drillshine stuff, but I still have a lot of suboptimal punishes like using second drills or grabbing in certain scenarios. I'm particularly stumped on grabs. I did a lot more than the previous set which helped and I am already pretty comfortable with getting the single hit uair, but I just am never sure the best ways to force grabs out of neutral spacing. I also shield way too much and **** around on platforms way too much, but those are just some habits I need to work on. So yeah, any advice is appreciated.
*cough *
 

unknown522

Some guy
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
8,047
Location
Toronto, Ontario
Fine I guess

Edit: it's hard to do a critique of a person when they are winning all the matches (well, probably not possible to do a long in deph one), because the opponent in not good enough to bring out the points that you need to work on. Things that maybe shouldn't work or may have been poor decisions, aren't there as much since everything you're doing works on that person. All that could really be said is that he's getting *****.

In other gaming communities, if you ask for critique on matches that you are winning, and isn't even relatively close, people either don't take it seriously, or think that you are just showing off (I myself know that this is not the case right now, but you get the point).

Anyways, with that being said, I'll probably post some things that I notice. But again it may not be much

:phone:
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
Fair enough. I guess it's just frustrating cause I only get to practice vs. people like once a month max, so I am constantly trying to get everything out of my vids as possible. I need to just move to Norcal and become the best already. ;D
 

unknown522

Some guy
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
8,047
Location
Toronto, Ontario
we all need to do that.

Anyways, I'm still writing stuff, but took a break cuz my friend is helping me with the PAL melee stuff (I got it working through GCBL, but there's no color)
 

Walt

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 31, 2007
Messages
894
Location
Concord, CA
I'm really good friends with Gucci and in my heart I kind of wanted him to go on to fight M2K in GF, so I think I didn't want to win as hard as I could have. Still I feel like I got outplayed, particularly in game 5.
Yo Toph, is Gucci the same GUCCI who plays Axl in GG? Just curious.
 

omgwtfToph

Smash Master
Joined
May 28, 2008
Messages
4,486
Location
San Jose
I suspect that's the same Gucci who plays Noel in BB, and I'm fairly sure the answer is no, sadly.

But I'm staying at 9B's house in Osaka right now (he's the best Brawl player in probably the world) and he's the same 9B that plays Potemkin (and was like the 2nd best Potemkin in the world).
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
Bones's Fox will always drop through or run off a platform with an attack.

You got away with a lot of goofy stuff so I'm not sure whether you were doing it because you knew you could get away with it or legitimately thought they were good ideas. If you wanna talk we can do it on AIM or something though. Don't feel like making another long post on the boards...
 

unknown522

Some guy
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
8,047
Location
Toronto, Ontario
Bones vs <3


Game 1

- In the beginning of the match, he pulled a turnip when you were sort of close to him. You could’ve came down from the platform with a drill

- On the 1st stock it looks like you’re getting outspaced, or just completely missing moves, which causes you to get hit. It happens a couple of times, until you start taking control.

- So far, you have been missing all your follows from drill -> shine, or you shine him off the stage, and don’t respond accordingly (take the ledge). When you shine him onto the ledge, you at least keep pressure on him. That’s good.

- You pretty much **** him the rest of the match, and landed a few drill -> shine combos and some other combos


Game 2

- Again, he’s getting ***** 1st stock. Then you made one costly mistake and took a lot of damage for it

- You ***** him second stock as well

- 5:10, you should’ve sweetspot the ledge. He wasn’t close enough to be able to cover it

- More **** throughout the match


Game 3

- You got hit by a lot of random d-smashes. Either rolling into him, or just standing there. In the other games you were playing more to platforms, and this game is on FD. Maybe that’s why?

- 3rd stock, you were FHing on him a lot and never changed it up, but never got punished once. I dunno what to say. You also tried to shine -> reverse b-air him during a combo

- @ 9:53, you were shooting lasers while he was throwing turnips at you. Then you tried to shoot lasers from the ledge when he was still throwing turnips

- @ 10:05 you don’t need me tell you what was wrong here

- More ****


Game 4

- @ 10:30, you didn’t need to shine oos. You might as well have gone for a bigger punish since you CC’d a dash attack. He hit you again right after with a weak dash attack, but then you jumped away instead of going for a punish. Assuming you got the follow-up, it wouldn’t be a bad choice but you’re just making it more difficult for yourself when you don’t have to

- For the next 20 seconds or so following, you didn’t even bother attacking him and he hit you a bunch of times when you were running around and stuff

- The rest of the match is **** pretty much

For this player specifically, he plays really grounded all the time, so you can probably **** him with a lot of FH on top of him, good shield game, or just drilling/grabbing him a lot, with a bit of DDing. Just mow him down with attacks that he can’t CC, and if done well, I am pretty sure you will 3-4 stock this guy.

There are also times where you up-smash when it’s definitely not going to kill and probably won’t give you a follow. You can keep doing it if you really want to, but it’d probably be better to either go for a longer combo, or try and push the opponent off the stage with like n-air or something so that you could attempt an edgeguard and keep them in a bad position.


Hopefully you can record more with some better opponents or something
 

unknown522

Some guy
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
8,047
Location
Toronto, Ontario
Naw. You can figure it out on your own.

jk. When I wake up I guess since you asked me specifically. Oh yeah, watch my sets vs vudujin I guess

:phone:
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
How should I expect Peach players to adapt when I'm spamming FH drill constantly? I figure they would nair OoS, but if they start doing that, does it mean I have to stop FHing all together because they can react to it, or can I DJ out and avoid it or something?
 

ShroudedOne

Smash Hero
Premium
Joined
Mar 14, 2011
Messages
5,493
Do Luigi players cheat or something? I'm watching this set, and he's getting more invisibile ceilings and misfires than I've ever seen in my life so far... (I remember hearing something about them being able to do this on command, but...)
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
@ Carroll

You could do a better job of punishing his super standard Luigi combo break habits, mainly near the edge. Shine OOS near the edge on panic nairs is pretty cruel. Up tilt is also good vs nairs (make sure he's doing a sex kick or fair though - his dair ***** up tilt). You actually do a pretty good job of out-positioning his panic Luigi moves with bair, so good stuff. You hit a bunch of up smashes too, but I think you would get much better damage (and positioning) out of up tilt and a good SHFFL sex kick. A kind of funny thing I like vs Luigi is to just dash dance > low nair around his aerial or airdodge because it sets up really nice air combos at some percent range, but that sort of thing requires a bit more finesse than ****** things with high priority moves + positioning or shield > super fast moves (and the increase in damage is minimal at best).

If you ever hit Luigi off the level when he lacks his jump (with a nair or whatever), attempting to pseudo-combo a shine is a pretty good default to go to (assuming he's too far from the edge to grab it during free fall). Depending on how far he goes he can be thoroughly trapped by this sort of thing. Just be ready to abort mission and turn the situation into a standard Fox edgeguard if he does something goofy like FF > tornado attempt or whatever.

Your DI sucks and you tech predictably. I dunno why you're not DIing behind him on throws as the default since Vudujin lives in your region but... yeah, do that. Just do it. Also, I'm tech chasing you with my eyes. I think your pattern is something like stand, roll, roll, stand or something? I forget. But yeah, I'm surprised he didn't go 0-death on your second stock with what you were doing. If possible, try to get on the top platform if you can vs characters like Luigi (and Peach, etc). Luigi is bad at air comboing but good at ground comboing and the higher you are in the air when you're hit off, the more recovery options you have (relevant vs slow characters like Luigi, Peach, etc). This allows you to circumvent long term damage and do a lot of other things that can help save your stock. If you can force him to finish his combo (or follow up) with bair then that's also great because his bair is weak and its trajectory sucks but that's tricky and I wouldn't be able to explain how to do it. Keep it in mind though.

WD OOS punish vs Tornados. I think you can probably grab or shine. Even if you're slow, in a lot of these situations he's going to the edge to finish his cooldown, which opens up an opportunity for you to apply pressure and fish for a gimp. On a related note, gimp Luigi because his recovery options are horrible vs things that send down (and characters that can heavily punish him for doing stupid attack-based recoveries).

If Luigi DIs really hard away from your shine and goes offstage, consider grabbing the edge super fast and then covering a bunch of options with invulnerability (waiting covers options). You can get really easy damage on him this way by ledgehop uairing on airdodges, bairing him through whatever move(s) he throws out to attempt to muscle his way back, and you can even just gimp him if he aligns himself with you. If you're not fast enough to do this, either acquire more practical tech skill or bait his DJ attack recovery and kill him with some kind of shine or aerial into shine offstage.

You are asking for trouble with those defensive FJ bairs near the edge. They're not explicitly terrible vs Luigi or anything but your placement & timing on them needs work. I'm really surprised he didn't just WD up smash on them 'cuz you're doing the bair so early into the jump that you're creating a window for that. On that note, you seem to throw around attacks a lot without much purpose (on DL I noticed a few really bad dash attacks). In general, Fox isn't really good at throwing moves around to control space and keep people out like Sheik and Marth. He can, to some degree (see: M2K's patented fade away FJ nair), but he generally functions better by moving and screwing with peoples' footing and then hitting them for being out of place (you attack when they can't defend properly - it's really cheap!). This is, IMO, especially important against characters like Luigi who want to eat your moves in whatever way they can (crouch, outprioritizing, etc) and then kill you off that. Especially 'cuz those characters have a tendency to be bad vs Fox's movement style anyway.

I think you could probably FJ around this guy's SH aerials more. On Dreamland you kept trying to compete your SHFFL nair against his SH aerials and that will never work. Normally bair is really good vs Luigi aerials (in my experience) but you kind of need to pin him down for that strategy to work and you're being mostly defensive as far as I can tell. You were better about this on Battlefield, but I think that's more because of the level than anything - Battlefield is kind of cheating vs this kind of spacing strat 'cuz the platforms allow a platform waveland > aerial game that doesn't really exist on other levels the way it does there (because BF platforms cover so much of the level, go right to the middle, they're big enough to move on comfortably, top platform for aborting mission, etc).

You really need to get better at basic stuff like ledgehop bair, using dair to force people to recover low and then killing them, shining people out of of their recovery vulnerabilities, etc. You could be killing this guy way more efficiently. I feel you're kind of weak at the edge in general. You have predictable ledgehop dairs.

Drillshine > dash attack is only usable after 50%. Otherwise you'll just get hit out of the dash attack's lag. It's a tough link to nail in general just 'cuz you need enough stage for it (or some very strange DI on their part) but it's not really a bad play when used appropriately. That said, dash attack on its own in general is kind of meh vs Luigi. It's kind of useful just because of its speed (great for slipping between his aerial patterns and stuff) and because you can bait him after launching him with a DD punish but bleh. I feel like you're actively going for them (as opposed to just taking them as they come up) and if you're going to look for specific types of openings to hit moves on you have much better choices.

I don't really approve of how much you fish for up smash. Possibly because I think hitting Luigi offstage is better in a general sense. Possibly because you're doing it against grounded Luigi. Possibly because you're doing it when it won't kill him. Could be a lot of reasons.

This guy seems pretty good at ledgedashing while retaining a good chunk of actionable invulnerability so you have to back up a bit more at the edge or get on a platform and respect the invincible plumber - you can't beat invulnerability. You can, however, beat the stupid actions people take to force stage control after ledgedash. I recommend some kind of bair. Whatever feels appropriate. Luigi's ledgedash is kind of extreme - it either thrusts him right back into the stage or he does a stationary one. So as long as you space for the deep ones, you can probably get good returns vs his ledge recoveries. Luigi without WD or crouch (low traction nerfs his crouch game at the edge hard) kind of sucks anyway so the stationary waveland option is kind of meh and you can probably just outplay him in that position without too much trouble.

When you're playing the ground game vs Luigi, I think you can afford a much more aggressive spacing style than what you're currently doing. When I do this MU I mostly just hang outside Luigi's f-tilt range because that range is nice and close so that if he tosses around moves I can punish them, but I'm not so far that WD approach is viable. Walk and stuff are nerfed by Luigi's garbage traction. I find this kind of spacing is really cruel to him. Only weakness is that it requires some focus 'cuz Luigi's often try spontaneous things to break up footing but aside from that it's good IMO. I don't like being far from him because he gets access to WD approaches and his tricky movement stuff, which gives him legitimately decent movement options (and therefore I have to worry about more). Much easier to just turn his movement "off", IMO.
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
Canada is really theory heavy 'cuz we lack character diversity. So we study MUs and come up with dynamically homosexual strategies to make up for it. So far it seems to be working.
 

Divinokage

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 6, 2006
Messages
16,250
Location
Montreal, Quebec
You aren't from Canada, if you look at the Ganon boards btw, I try to help a lot too with good relevant posts but that's all I'm really comfortable doing 100%.
 

Engo

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 18, 2007
Messages
865
Location
the dog,the dog he's at it again!
After watching the Euro I understand why Abate's name is pronounced the way it is. It's an Italian last name. The more you know.

Also god damn ryan and davids critques are so amazing. I wanna record matches now.
 

ShroudedOne

Smash Hero
Premium
Joined
Mar 14, 2011
Messages
5,493
I read KK's posts in that lovely voice he has. :)

==

For those of you who play the Sheik matchup often, what visual cues do you look for when trying to grab the ledge from her while she's shino-stalling? The timing always seems really tight to wavedash onto the ledge (coming off the respawn platform with invincibility helps if she's that predictable), but I'm always afraid of getting faired from the ledge or getting poofed.

I've noticed that PC edgehogs might be the most efficient way to do this, but again, I'm not really sure what to look for in her animations that indicate that I'm safe to go ahead and do this.
 
Top Bottom