Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Fortress | Sveet]

Idk... uthrow usmash usmash usmash does about as much damage as anything falco can do to fox. I think fox has an easier time getting in and staying in on falco and leading into a stock from there than any other character

 

[chillindude829]

^ lol i disagree

falco can almost always 0 to death fox after a hit, fox cant do that to falco

not saying it always happens but the possibility's there

and fox doesnt really have an easy time staying in on falco, if falco shines u once ur prob taking huge damage

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

depends on what you consider a 0 - death

if its true hitstun, then neither character can

if its tech chases, positioning and edge guarding, then fox does it as well as falco.

 

[Wake]

Fox has definitely got some dirty stuff on Falco.

 

[chillindude829]

i meant the latter, and falco definitely has a wayyy easier time doing it to fox than vice versa

dont get me wrong its def close to an even matchup if not in foxs favor

i just disagree that fox can do more off one hit

 

[Divinokage]

Well, Idk the reads just have to be done differently.. there's sufficient defensive mechanism in this game where Fox can definitely escape some of the Falco combos. I mean after 2 Dairs to shine usually it's hard to follow up for Falco.

 

[unknown522]

hard for falco?

nothing is ever hard for falco

 

[PK Webb]

wait till u see jman vs pp and then say its even

 

[Sinji]

IDK. Falco doesn't beat fox IMO. It all depends on whether the fox player can handle pressure.

 

[PK Webb]

jman is 1 of the topped ranked foxes and pp destroyed him.....and jman is good at that mu

 

[chillindude829]

jman needed more falling upair

i didnt see the set tho

 

[PK Webb]

pp got like 4 laser resets in 1 combo lol

 

[Rubyiris]

ITT: A bunch of Foxes who have absolutely no idea how to reaction tech chase, avoid lasers, hit Falco for being slow as ****, or combo DI.

Jman made the set harder than it had to be by not reacting to PPs techs. Also PP is significantly better than the guy.

If Fox forces hard knockdown on Falco, and he's close enough to react, that should be the end of Falco's stock. ITS THAT GOD DAMN EASY, PEOPLE.

 

[chillindude829]

ur dumb

 

[Winston]

If Fox forces hard knockdown on Falco, and he's close enough to react, that should be the end of Falco's stock. ITS THAT GOD DAMN EASY, PEOPLE.

Ok I don't care about this I know how to do this

avoid lasers, hit Falco for being slow as ****, or combo DI.

I would like some pointers on these.

 

[Rubyiris]

ur dumb

When I played Fox, I was able to beat Falcos SIGNIFICANTLY better than me just through match up knowledge alone. You're welcome to think what ever you'd like though, even if it's straight up wrong.

Plus, since all you have to say is that I'm dumb proves that you lack the reasoning necessary to debunk my claims. That, or you're salty, knowing that I'm correct.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

@Winston run around platforms. Falco is slower than you so if he jumps to laser you, you can get below him. If you get above him you can approach with shines and platform wavedashes or aerials. If you hit with 1 shine that gets you a knockdown and then you can tech chase for a ton of % or a stock

 

[Rubyiris]

Ok I don't care about this I know how to do this



I would like some pointers on these.

Depending on how they laser you can either A: Eat the laser and counterattack, B: use platforms, C: full jump D: short hop over low lasers E: double jump mixup. F: running power shield.

Because Fox is so much faster, Falco has to commit heavily to lasering for it to have any real effect on Fox. On stages like FoD/Yoshis he has zero room to do so, and on DL, your mobility so greatly overshadows him that lasers are neigh-useless.

As for combo DI, at low percentage just hold down and away and virtually everything they do will have absolutely no effect, and if they foolishly attempt to follow up, you have a free crouch cancel counter to anal ****. As percentage gets higher and they're able to start up legitimate combos, you want to smash DI based on which direction they're going. Whichever direction they have momentum in, DI as hard as you possibly can in the opposite direction. The more you play against Falcos, the better your timing will get. To avoid uthrow combos, DI as hard as you can up. ASDI helps a lot. If the lasers miss you entirely, you can shine his attempt to hit you.

Sveet covered the bit I neglected to, also.

 

[Winston]

Because Fox is so much faster, Falco has to commit heavily to lasering for it to have any real effect on Fox.

I don't really get this. Falco isn't going to laser within the distance that Fox can sh nair him. Outside of that range, if there's a laser between Falco and Fox, it doesn't really matter that Fox is faster because he can't directly get to Falco without full jumping or (jumping from a platform). Full jumping is a bigger commitment than what Falco has to make, it seems to me.

The hits I get are usually from baiting Falco to approach or from running around on platforms until he makes a positioning mistake, but I feel like if he doesn't make a positioning mistake it's a stalemate at best. Fox doesn't have a move that he can use coming down from a platform to beat Falco's anti-air defenses.

As for combo DI, at low percentage just hold down and away and virtually everything they do will have absolutely no effect, and if they foolishly attempt to follow up, you have a free crouch cancel counter to anal ****.

? How does this beat the standard dair/shine stuff?

I know you can CC his dair at really low percents and shine him out of it but you have to be in true crouch for that so it doesn't seem super useful.

 

[Rubyiris]

Actually, very few Falco's really know their laser spacing. You'd be surprised how many free hits you can get off nairing a laser. Plus with platforms, you can go over it, or FJ/Double jump dair. (falling uair can be CCed, don't do it at lowish percentages.) Also, like I said before, you can crouch cancel the laser and punish a bad approach. This is another thing most Falcos are unfamiliar with. Once you're in close and have landed a hit, you can stay in his space neigh-indefinitely. He can't retreat, because you're faster.

If you hold down and away, a forward-facing shine will completely miss you because of ADSI. you don't even need to do regular smash DI, but it helps avoid dtilt and running grab if they try to mix you up. It's easy to do, and you get a free grab/usmash, so don't dismiss it.

Food for thought: Have you ever seen a peach dsmash a dair > shine? it's because they held down and away.

 

[FoxLisk]

hard for falco?

nothing is ever hard for falco

my **** is hard for falco

ur dumb

#winning

 

[P.c. Chris]

Chillindude on the foxboards got me hype!

Honestly i feel fox is behind vs falco. The only thing that keeps it even close is that he can CG him and sometimes get a nice low damage kill on him. Falco sets the pace so hard with his laser game.

Rubyiris, Falco can do the same thing to fox's drill >_> and he can also crouch my nair at low %, leaving me with few options Don't get me wrong, once fox gets in there HE'S IN THERE! Both characters kind of get off on each other but falco will probably have more openings because his neutral game is stronger in this matchup.

 

[Strong Badam]

PC Chris MM me at APEX!

 

[Rubyiris]

Chillindude on the foxboards got me hype!

Honestly i feel fox is behind vs falco. The only thing that keeps it even close is that he can CG him and sometimes get a nice low damage kill on him. Falco sets the pace so hard with his laser game.

Rubyiris, Falco can do the same thing to fox's drill >_> and he can also crouch my nair at low %, leaving me with few options Don't get me wrong, once fox gets in there HE'S IN THERE! Both characters kind of get off on each other but falco will probably have more openings because his neutral game is stronger in this matchup.

You can't SDI far enough away from Fox's drill if he delays it.

You can crouch nair at low percentage, but the goal is to nair Falco in situations where he can't.

I disagree with the neutral game statement, because Fox runs ****ing circles around the slow *** bird.

 

[unknown522]

wait, but if he delays the drill and gets 1 hit, then and character can CC that.

But yeah, landing a drill is pretty damn hard with fox vs falco. Simply not having range is one of the many issues if has, but being able to be beaten by a variety of falco's moves, while having the pace, and getting frame advantage most of the time makes it real difficult. Not only that, but you have to hit him while he's grounded with the drill. If the opponent happens to get hit while he's jumping, then he can always shine you first. That also turns into a huge combo (same with falco's drill as well, but only when it won't knock them down).

I (and some other players) do it on purpose.


Also, There's never been a fox that beats falcos better than them at high level. It's always the other way around. But for the Jman vs PP case, PP is simply better than Jman. Jesus hasn't been keeping up as much, and is pretty inconsistent, whereas PP has been steadily improving.

Back in the days of like RoM2, and APEX, Jman was better than all the falcos (sans Mango), but would still a lot of times lose to the like of PP, Zhu, Shiz, and (correct me if I'm wrong) Chops

Also, Stryc9 beating Jman.....wtf. I hope Jesus was high or something.

Also, Fox definitely has a way harder time comboing falco. It's obviously doable, but there's way too many factors that make it way harder for fox's combos to keep pace with falco. One of the many reasons being that shine sends horizontal. On a lot of stages, simply being combo-broken because the opponent grabbed the edge is viable. Most of the times that fox is gonna get in on falco, is when he's closer to one end of the stage. Starting a gimp opportunity is harder than it seems.


I don't really want to make another large breakdown of the matchup. Cuz those kinda go in one ear and out the other.

 

[Kite91]

If someone could help,it would be greatly appreciated. I'm curious about how the upthrow--->shine-->Bair is done. I know that a lot of smashers hold the controller differently so i curious if there's an easier way of doing it or what. Every time i try it i cant seem to either get out my shine fast enough or i turn around in my shine trying to hit back on my stick.

 

[Rubyiris]

wait, but if he delays the drill and gets 1 hit, then and character can CC that.

But yeah, landing a drill is pretty damn hard with fox vs falco. Simply not having range is one of the many issues if has, but being able to be beaten by a variety of falco's moves, while having the pace, and getting frame advantage most of the time makes it real difficult. Not only that, but you have to hit him while he's grounded with the drill. If the opponent happens to get hit while he's jumping, then he can always shine you first. That also turns into a huge combo (same with falco's drill as well, but only when it won't knock them down).

I (and some other players) do it on purpose.


Also, There's never been a fox that beats falcos better than them at high level. It's always the other way around. But for the Jman vs PP case, PP is simply better than Jman. Jesus hasn't been keeping up as much, and is pretty inconsistent, whereas PP has been steadily improving.

Back in the days of like RoM2, and APEX, Jman was better than all the falcos (sans Mango), but would still a lot of times lose to the like of PP, Zhu, Shiz, and (correct me if I'm wrong) Chops

Also, Stryc9 beating Jman.....wtf. I hope Jesus was high or something.

Also, Fox definitely has a way harder time comboing falco. It's obviously doable, but there's way too many factors that make it way harder for fox's combos to keep pace with falco. One of the many reasons being that shine sends horizontal. On a lot of stages, simply being combo-broken because the opponent grabbed the edge is viable. Most of the times that fox is gonna get in on falco, is when he's closer to one end of the stage. Starting a gimp opportunity is harder than it seems.


I don't really want to make another large breakdown of the matchup. Cuz those kinda go in one ear and out the other.

I guess I DIDN'T beat Vman (when he was a Falco main), Axe, and Forward when I was mostly a Fox main.

 

[chillindude829]

yea but ur not a high level player

 

[S l o X]

Okay so Im finally accepting the Fact that Im a spacie main, my old main was Marth, but I played too aggressive to be effective. Now my current issue is that I start off most matches kinda... "weak" if you will, like my tech skill isnt there, speed, comboing ability and everything but after about a stock it all kicks in. Now is this just a consistency issue where I need to just keep practicing or what? Any thoughts?

i wish a local marth main came to this realization. on topic: play more PEOPLE / play more. don't change characters, treat your first stock like it's your last. the more experience you have in matchups / with your character, the more consistent you'll be.

 

[JPOBS]

When I played Fox, I was able to beat Falcos SIGNIFICANTLY better than me just through match up knowledge alone.

link some vids so we can learn from your masterful ways?

Also you winning one set as Fox vs better falcos =/= fox > falco.

 

[Rubyiris]

yea but ur not a high level player

Which further supports my case. An average/above average player is able to beat people several tiers higher than them through character exploitation alone should be commended.

@Jpobs: Vman "lost" the vids of us playing together, and I didn't have my capture card when axe and Forward were playing with me a lot. I never let Vman live that down.

*I gave Vman like 5 or 6 completely full VHS of JUST US playing. that's about 10-12 hours of smash footage that he "Lost."

 

[EWC]

I don't really disagree with any of your specific points Ruby, but I think you are failing to consider how well falco can deal with fox in a lot of situations.

From a neutral position fox definitely has a huge mobility advantage, and can certainly avoid getting locked down by lasers and stuff. This makes it really hard for falco to approach.

Thing is, the same is true in the other direction. If falco just kinda chills under a side platform he can react to any direct approach with lasers and bairs and uptilts.

This means that neither character can just play rushdown and hope to win. It doesn't give either character a big advantage though.

As it happens, I really do believe that fox has a slight advantage from neutral, but it comes in a more subtle way than you are suggesting. The real issue as I see it is that fox can control the pacing of the match from neutral. This is essentially because falco always has to be ready to throw out a move (laser/bair/uptilt) to defend himself, while fox can do so just by moving. So the falco always has to be reacting to the fox, which as I said give fox control over pacing.

This really is a pretty subtle sort of advantage though; It's not cut-and-dry at all. If a fox and a falco are both playing the matchup "properly", then the neutral game should feel difficult from both sides. Neither player should expect to be able to hit the other guy easily unless they make a mistake. Leveraging something as abstract as tempo control into actual hits and knockdowns is hard.

 

[Rubyiris]

Falco has to camp like a ****** in order to beat Fox competent at anally violating falcos, but otherwise Fox very obviously has the advantage in the match up.

Human variance, etc makes the match up less free, however.

 

[unknown522]

yeah, like falco players not being dumb

 

[EWC]

If by "camp like a ******" you mean "don't do the same laser laser dair shine approach that every falco player has been jacking off to since 2005 over and over again without stopping to look at the screen in between", then yeah I agree.

But seriously. You think falco is free because of stuff like full jumping over lasers and platform movement and running powershields and reaction techchasing? People have been doing all of those things since like 2008. If it was that simple, you'd think someone good would've figured it out by now and then proceeded to never lose to falco again. Or do you really think that your magical little combination of 3 year old now-standard matchup tricks is just so brilliant that only a genius of your caliber could think of it and that's why everyone else still in the dark ages.

Gimme a break.

 

[V3ctorMan]

Which further supports my case. An average/above average player is able to beat people several tiers higher than them through character exploitation alone should be commended.

@Jpobs: Vman "lost" the vids of us playing together, and I didn't have my capture card when axe and Forward were playing with me a lot. I never let Vman live that down.

*I gave Vman like 5 or 6 completely full VHS of JUST US playing. that's about 10-12 hours of smash footage that he "Lost."

I've indeed lost the tapes, sorry..Xander.

Spoiler

Not to mention it's a full "friendlies" tape too, but that relevance is important to some of you, and unimportant to some as well.. just depends I suppose.

However, another note, "Vman" was not losing for your so called 10-12 hours of footage, this information is incorrect, losses were had on Vmans part indeed..but I wasn't losing majority of the matches either, but it's ok Xander, I understand you feel a need to give yourself some recognition, so it's cool I will not deny that..

Another note: as you ALL may know "Vman" is A HORRIBLE rolemodel to look off of, (For Falco), as I do not (and never will) attempt to play a MU correctly, (with Falco) I'm an "aggro" Falco, and will never play a MU correctly regardless of character.. As it's been stated many times before... I'll make horrible decisions to look cool and lose, rather than make "smart" decisions that look (lame/not as cool) and win.. Good ole morals..

All in all, I understand you respect me as a good player, but by no means is my falco "good" and i hope noone tries to learn Falco like mine, as I'll most likely only give losses, My falco's bad compared to the amazing falcos such as Axe, Zhu, Mango, DSW, Blunted, Sion, Forward, PP, Chops, etc.. you get the idea

And here's a video of Vman getting worked by the Ruby of Irises... (Well game 2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDGAIb13qIs

 

[EWC]

Vman I love your falco don't ever compromise.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I've formatted this argument:

My <character> once beat <person's> <other character> and he's better than me. I guess <MU> isn't that bad guys.

Now any MU ratio can be justified!

ITT: A bunch of Foxes who have absolutely no idea how to reaction tech chase, avoid lasers, hit Falco for being slow as ****, or combo DI.

Well, yeah. You're here.

 

[PK Webb]

as i thought from watching the video almost any tristate falco would doodoo all over ur foxes vest.....

 

[Rubyiris]

I've formatted this argument:

My <character> once beat <person's> <other character> and he's better than me. I guess <MU> isn't that bad guys.

Now any MU ratio can be justified!


Well, yeah. You're here.

Nice to know that you're still an awful person.

@Twebb: We'll see next summer. I'll be in NJ.