Sinji
Smash Master
And thats the disadvantage about the tactic. If you react in between the shine and the opponent shield and you usmash, you **** up. shine>usmash is a risk and reward.
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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-
- Thread starter Silent Wolf
- Start date
trahhSTEEZY
Smash Champion
wha? that's why instead of usmashing the shield, you react and grab or anything, that was my point with reacting off the shine.
Palpi
Smash Hero
It's not that big of a deal. People are acting like shine up smash is like ****ing amazing when in actuality there are few opportunities where it can be used safely, and in those opportunities it's great. So...w/e
ZetTroxX
Smash Journeyman
After upthrow2waveshineshine a spacie at low% who misses the tech it´s really great. You guys got some more opportunities for that move? 
Pengie
Smash Lord
I never saw the big deal with Shine -> JC Upsmash; is the extra 1-5 percent really worth it or am I missing something about it?
Lovage
Smash Hero
ya, that set in general i told myself to play really scared of his shield, since last time i played him i got gayed by usmash oos over and over since i don't really know the timing/spacing of it and how to pressure differently to avoid it.
i def wanna figure out the shield game better since but since there's really no one on shroomed's level it's hard to get experience vs. it.
but yeah tho, utilt is a ****ing godlike broken insane move, i'm realizing this more and more, the only problem is that 99% of the time you use it, it has to be off of a sick read - you can't just spam it and hope for the best like back air lol.
also my edge guarding could be 600 times better vs doc, i want to experiement with popping his pills with weak nair, reflecting them with shine, and just get better at timing my bairs.
idk imma think of some new things next chance i get to play him
edit: watching that set again i can really tell that i play like i don't know what i'm doing. there's so many optimizations i could be making in almost every aspect of the matchup, but i don't know how to make them yet cuz i couldn't adapt fast enough.
i feel like when i play vs. IC's, i really have no fear of the character since i get to play vs. the best ic's in the world (fly) like every month. so when i play a new ic's like woobbllezss i barely have to think about the matchup at all and i can use my energy to outsmart the player.
i don't have anywhere near this kind of experience vs. doc so i waste most of my time trying to adapt to the character instead of the player, so i always feel like i'm a few steps behind. i'm not trying to use this as an excuse for losing to a weird character lol, just motivation that i really need to learn to adapt better OR come better prepared to the tournament (dr.pp type ****)
Can anyone consistently pivot uptilts (lookin at you lovage)?
If so, is there a specific method that you use?
This is one of those things that I decided a long time ago was too hard to be learnable. I've been re-examining all of these things a lot lately and I've had a lot of success with them.
I trying to do it earlier today. I can sorta get it by doing an empty pivot, then returning the stick to neutral, then doing an uptilt. This is pretyy slow though. I'm sure if I practice it enough I'll be able to do it kinda fast, but I don't think it'll ever be as quick as it ought to be.
I vaguely remember having done a legit fast pivot uptilt by accident once, while trying to do pivot jabs. I was never able to replicate this, but at least it sort of indicates that it's possible to do. I can't figure out what the actual motion was though.
If so, is there a specific method that you use?
This is one of those things that I decided a long time ago was too hard to be learnable. I've been re-examining all of these things a lot lately and I've had a lot of success with them.
I trying to do it earlier today. I can sorta get it by doing an empty pivot, then returning the stick to neutral, then doing an uptilt. This is pretyy slow though. I'm sure if I practice it enough I'll be able to do it kinda fast, but I don't think it'll ever be as quick as it ought to be.
I vaguely remember having done a legit fast pivot uptilt by accident once, while trying to do pivot jabs. I was never able to replicate this, but at least it sort of indicates that it's possible to do. I can't figure out what the actual motion was though.
I think you're thinking of the standing turn (which is indeed four frames). Turning around out of a dash (ie pivot) only takes one frame.
I know how to do pivot uptilt in principle (I can do it trivially is dolphin with frame advance), but actually transitioning from the flick motion to an uptilt in one frame is really hard.
Actually I just thought of a pretty simple idea that might make it doable. I'll test it real quick and get back.
I know how to do pivot uptilt in principle (I can do it trivially is dolphin with frame advance), but actually transitioning from the flick motion to an uptilt in one frame is really hard.
Actually I just thought of a pretty simple idea that might make it doable. I'll test it real quick and get back.
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
lol lovage, you should get mango to go mario in friendlies against you or something >_>
i think mario's usmash is the same as doc's idk
i think mario's usmash is the same as doc's idk
Okay so my idea was to basically try doing an empty pivot but keep the stick tilted up a little bit the whole time. I couldn't get it to work though.
The problem is that when I do an empty pivot I have to sorta flick the control stick in the other direction to make sure that I only input it for one frame. In order to get this to work, I actually have to let go of the stick very briefly, which is why it's so hard to tilt it right after.
I can do it the stupid way a little bit faster now, but stil nowhere near fast enough to get something like nair->pivot uptilt to combo at mid percents (which is main thing I want to use this for).
I think the most likely way for this to work is to first learn to empty pivot without having to do the little flick-release. I'm curious: can anybody do empty pivots without letting go of the stick? I tried and I can do it at 1/2 speed, so it's probably doable with practice.
The problem is that when I do an empty pivot I have to sorta flick the control stick in the other direction to make sure that I only input it for one frame. In order to get this to work, I actually have to let go of the stick very briefly, which is why it's so hard to tilt it right after.
I can do it the stupid way a little bit faster now, but stil nowhere near fast enough to get something like nair->pivot uptilt to combo at mid percents (which is main thing I want to use this for).
I think the most likely way for this to work is to first learn to empty pivot without having to do the little flick-release. I'm curious: can anybody do empty pivots without letting go of the stick? I tried and I can do it at 1/2 speed, so it's probably doable with practice.
unknown522
Some guy
sorry, I wanted to give more advice after watching it a second time, but then I never got around to it, cuz I was occupied at KK's smashfest yesterday/today. IB came down so we played quite a bit.
but yeah:
@ 3:45, you did a shine then a d-air and he traded u-smash with your d-air. It was because you hit the shine from so far away (which couldn't be helped because you rolled into him, then shined), but if you did a n-air then the u-smash wouldn'tve worked. You would have stuffed him. alternatively, if you faded back with the d-air, then he wouldn't have been able to punish you with anything (f-air and WD oos are too slow, and his other moves won't reach and leave him open).
@ 5:19 - that was good on his part. Though you missed the n-air, you pressured him from behind and the u-smash starts from there.
@ 6:26, you walked after doing the n-air (probably a technical error).
@ 1:55, when you shined him off the second time, if you quickly did a ledge-hop b-air then you could've killed him, instead of the shine -> firefox hog.
@ 2:28, you probably know that if you just did it faster you would've gotten it easy.
@ 2:49, when he came down with those pills, you could've definitely SH n-air'd both pills and him.
@ 3:37, so close. Just needed better placement.
@ 3:54, if you u-air'd instead. Still after hitting the n-air, if you turned around and b-air him through the pull, all would have been well.
@ 5:25, if you didn't miss the tech I think you could've made and edgeguard work.
@ 5:30, if you did that running shine later, you would've went under the pill and hit him.
Some matchup specific stuff that I can think of:
- when you're above 120% (I think it was), don't DI his u-throw. He can't follow up with f-air. If he tries to do later jumps to go higher, you can jump or shine him first.
- If you know the f-air won't kill, it's usually better to no to DI it, rather than DIing in either direction.
- @ 2:15, you could've stuffed that drill with your n-air and maybe gotten a small combo.
- @ 6:13, CC u-smash ftw.
Oh also, if I see more things I'll let you know.
but yeah:
yeah, I saw that he caught you a couple of times with that. About half of the time that it worked was because you messed up tech skill while pressuring him (like getting stuck in your shine [1:35 in the vid]), or some other factor that could possibly have been avoided (4:51, you did an empty jump after your shine and went right into the u-smash. Well I think you may have been trying to do a delayed aerial as pressure, but that's just my guess).
@ 3:45, you did a shine then a d-air and he traded u-smash with your d-air. It was because you hit the shine from so far away (which couldn't be helped because you rolled into him, then shined), but if you did a n-air then the u-smash wouldn'tve worked. You would have stuffed him. alternatively, if you faded back with the d-air, then he wouldn't have been able to punish you with anything (f-air and WD oos are too slow, and his other moves won't reach and leave him open).
@ 5:19 - that was good on his part. Though you missed the n-air, you pressured him from behind and the u-smash starts from there.
@ 6:26, you walked after doing the n-air (probably a technical error).
yeah man, that sucks when you can't really practice that stuff much. Just try to abuse the fact the he has less range than you on most of his moves. Also shine -> grab is awesome (though I need to use it more myself), since a lot of times you will catch doc in shield near the edge of the stage and potentially go for an f-throw gimp or something.
That's true, it's not really spammable. Most of the time you want to hit him on the back of the shield, if you're trying to make a read.
yeah man it's all good. You can edgeguard in many ways. Just make sure that you hit it. Some advice:
@ 1:55, when you shined him off the second time, if you quickly did a ledge-hop b-air then you could've killed him, instead of the shine -> firefox hog.
@ 2:28, you probably know that if you just did it faster you would've gotten it easy.
@ 2:49, when he came down with those pills, you could've definitely SH n-air'd both pills and him.
@ 3:37, so close. Just needed better placement.
@ 3:54, if you u-air'd instead. Still after hitting the n-air, if you turned around and b-air him through the pull, all would have been well.
@ 5:25, if you didn't miss the tech I think you could've made and edgeguard work.
@ 5:30, if you did that running shine later, you would've went under the pill and hit him.
Friendlies all day! You can take him.
still, you weren't doing bad at all. A couple of minor errors added up, which really sucks.
Some matchup specific stuff that I can think of:
- when you're above 120% (I think it was), don't DI his u-throw. He can't follow up with f-air. If he tries to do later jumps to go higher, you can jump or shine him first.
- If you know the f-air won't kill, it's usually better to no to DI it, rather than DIing in either direction.
- @ 2:15, you could've stuffed that drill with your n-air and maybe gotten a small combo.
- @ 6:13, CC u-smash ftw.
God damn, I hate ICs with a passion. I don't think I'm bad at the matchup, but I really don't like the characters. There's just something about them. Also, yeah Fly is really good. He has some pretty interesting **** to say a lot of times.
practice practice practice! I'm still really confident that you'll beat him next time.
Oh also, if I see more things I'll let you know.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
the reason shine up smash is **** ISN'T DAMAGE LOL. it allows you to punish moves you normally cannot from dash distance. im not gonna go all guru and act like I have a list of situations where simple up smash won't work....but bottom line is up smash is like 7-8 frames, shine is 1 and more damage...any spot u can punish with up smash thats more than maximum dash distance u are better off with shine up smash.
pivot up tilts lol god mode...ur probably better with empty pivot into up tilt, practice bro. im sad that I can't do pivots on my new controller, not sensitive enough I guess....u can also try nair into walking turn around up tilts. requires much less of a jerk or flick and easier to do. also late nair wd or single dash into turn around up tilt. so basically learn it out of wd or walking unless ur willing to spend hours upon hours of practice...if u do ill jock u tho, pivot up tilt is super hard.
pivot up tilts lol god mode...ur probably better with empty pivot into up tilt, practice bro. im sad that I can't do pivots on my new controller, not sensitive enough I guess....u can also try nair into walking turn around up tilts. requires much less of a jerk or flick and easier to do. also late nair wd or single dash into turn around up tilt. so basically learn it out of wd or walking unless ur willing to spend hours upon hours of practice...if u do ill jock u tho, pivot up tilt is super hard.
JPOBS
Smash Hero
ya, upside to shine upsmash is that its a few frames faster. Downside is that you can't do it out of the initial dash animation (read: dash dancing) because it requires a dash cancel. So you can't even be that close to them to start with.
unless you jc shine upsmash like a pro.
unless you jc shine upsmash like a pro.
Fried Ice Cream
Smash Ace
I seriously hope you guys have learned how to do this because it feels great to hit opponents who are JUST out of shine range. It was easy to learn this because of N64 fox, that was the only way you could shine lol. It's also nice start-up to learning waveshine OoS, but that's still too hard for me
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Fortress | Sveet
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Theres a trick for pivot utilts that Rat taught me. May or may not be useful for fox but here goes:
Plug in your controller with the control stick halfway down. This allows you to only press A and do a utilt, allowing you to do pivot "jabs" that come out as utilts. Downsides are you can't nair (who needs nair when you have bair?), jabbing requires more effort (who needs it when you have shine), and maybe other things.
Plug in your controller with the control stick halfway down. This allows you to only press A and do a utilt, allowing you to do pivot "jabs" that come out as utilts. Downsides are you can't nair (who needs nair when you have bair?), jabbing requires more effort (who needs it when you have shine), and maybe other things.
Fried Ice Cream
Smash Ace
I'll take my N-air over pivot U-tilts any day !
!
Fortress | Sveet
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Ur location is really cool
Fried Ice Cream
Smash Ace
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
do jc shine up smashes connect? mainly thinking about vs marths, luigi, and characters of that splidey no traction nature.
I thought the stopped momentum, the extra frames to land and shines knock back made it too far yo hit with. like how come I can't do a standing shine up smash?
I thought the stopped momentum, the extra frames to land and shines knock back made it too far yo hit with. like how come I can't do a standing shine up smash?
Sinji
Smash Master
Well then. lol
Wow I didn't think of that Sveet. That's really cool thanks. It makes it super easy. Unfortunately you can't really nair, and it also screws up wavedash lengths. I am getting faster with the flick-release-tilt method, so I think I'll just keep working on that.
Re: shine upsmash. Yeah I'm pretty sure there's situations where it's legitimately better than just upsmashing, for exactly the reason that people have been saying.
JC shine upsmash can connect; It's pretty tough, but if you're consistent at grounded JC shine out of dash (I am some days but not others randomly), then it's not much harder than connecting shine upsmash out of a tiny walk.
Re: shine upsmash. Yeah I'm pretty sure there's situations where it's legitimately better than just upsmashing, for exactly the reason that people have been saying.
JC shine upsmash can connect; It's pretty tough, but if you're consistent at grounded JC shine out of dash (I am some days but not others randomly), then it's not much harder than connecting shine upsmash out of a tiny walk.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
oh, u dudes are telling about jc wave shine out of initial dash...and then up smash.....WEAK!
thats definitely not a shine up smash....and on the edge its not applicable because they can snatch ledge during the wave dash....also I think its incredibly hard on marths and weegys compared to a legitimate shine up smash.
doing that trick you should be able to nair if u slightly press down...neutral out the stick and its coo.
thats definitely not a shine up smash....and on the edge its not applicable because they can snatch ledge during the wave dash....also I think its incredibly hard on marths and weegys compared to a legitimate shine up smash.
doing that trick you should be able to nair if u slightly press down...neutral out the stick and its coo.
JPOBS
Smash Hero
no, we were tlaking about only jc shine upsmash. no wavedash
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
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false. doc's upsmash functions similarly to Mario's against aerial opponents, but against grounded opponents it sends at an angle of 259. they rebound off the ground, reducing knockback to .8x, but hitstun is the same. this is why doc's usmash is better, and why usmash to fair works.
try DIing away (the direction doc is facing).
animation and hitbox location wise, however, they are likely identical.
Lovage
Smash Hero
if ur in a full dash there's no point in doing jc shine, just press down+b (press down a little bit earlier than normal so u cancel ur dash)
if you're still in your initial dash, you gotta do a jc shine. or an empty pivot to shine but that's really slow and dumb lol
tbh there's not that much stuff you can do with initial dash jc shine cuz you don't have any momentum it's way harder to combo. i would rather just short hop shine and then waveland somewhere
if you're still in your initial dash, you gotta do a jc shine. or an empty pivot to shine but that's really slow and dumb lol
tbh there's not that much stuff you can do with initial dash jc shine cuz you don't have any momentum it's way harder to combo. i would rather just short hop shine and then waveland somewhere
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
disregard this
unknown522
Some guy
Doesn't JC shine take longer than a dash-canceled one?
Fortress | Sveet
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shine would come out on the 3rd frame from a dash cancel and 4th frame from a jump cancel. There is a noticeable difference in distance between the two, jump cancel gaining roughly 1/3rd shine distance more.
In practical terms, JC shines are more useful for falco since he doesn't need to remain grounded to follow up while fox does. If you can master the JC shine, though, it is superior to the dash canceled version.
In practical terms, JC shines are more useful for falco since he doesn't need to remain grounded to follow up while fox does. If you can master the JC shine, though, it is superior to the dash canceled version.
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dash cancel shine from a run comes out frame 3. one frame RunBrake, one frame Squat, then action 313 (shine).
Fortress | Sveet
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[Post ninja'd gloating]
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im on my phone and i booted up ar to double check. ****ing sveet.