unknown522
Some guy
mmm, so that's why it always feels better to jump and shine. Especially with falco.
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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-
- Thread starter Silent Wolf
- Start date
Fortress | Sveet
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It feels really good 
I remember the first time I really understood the gains of JC shines was when i played against zhu. At the time I was still maining marth. I don't remember any specific scenarios but I remember being shocked at how fast he was getting inside me with a shine. He was staying grounded so I didn't notice it right away, either, but when I realized he was actually approaching me with spaced JC shines. . . I was pretty impressed to say the least.
edit- On the topic of zhu, I'm not sure many people give him the credit he deserves for his advancement of the falco metagame. His style is very precise, calculated, positional and maximizing; it reminds me of Hax's falcon in that way, but was way ahead of his time.
I remember the first time I really understood the gains of JC shines was when i played against zhu. At the time I was still maining marth. I don't remember any specific scenarios but I remember being shocked at how fast he was getting inside me with a shine. He was staying grounded so I didn't notice it right away, either, but when I realized he was actually approaching me with spaced JC shines. . . I was pretty impressed to say the least.
edit- On the topic of zhu, I'm not sure many people give him the credit he deserves for his advancement of the falco metagame. His style is very precise, calculated, positional and maximizing; it reminds me of Hax's falcon in that way, but was way ahead of his time.
Fried Ice Cream
Smash Ace
Regarding JC shine out of initial dash:
I think it's not as good on characters you can waveshine, then I'd do what Lovage said and waveland somewhere, or just not JC shine at all.
However, on characters that fall down after a shine, it doesn't really matter if it's a grounded shine, or a JC shine after initial dash, so I think it's a lot more useful then to shine just a bit out of range, since he'll get knocked down, you can airdodge into the ground on time to follow his roll and punish him for it, or even just jump and wait for him in the air. All in all, I like it a lot of Falco, about as much as I like Shine OoS.
I think it's not as good on characters you can waveshine, then I'd do what Lovage said and waveland somewhere, or just not JC shine at all.
However, on characters that fall down after a shine, it doesn't really matter if it's a grounded shine, or a JC shine after initial dash, so I think it's a lot more useful then to shine just a bit out of range, since he'll get knocked down, you can airdodge into the ground on time to follow his roll and punish him for it, or even just jump and wait for him in the air. All in all, I like it a lot of Falco, about as much as I like Shine OoS.
unknown522
Some guy
wow, I had that exact same experience when I played friendlies with mango at Pound 3 (but I was using fox/falco/doc though). He kept getting in on me with Jumping shines, but he usually left the ground.It feels really good
I remember the first time I really understood the gains of JC shines was when i played against zhu. At the time I was still maining marth. I don't remember any specific scenarios but I remember being shocked at how fast he was getting inside me with a shine. He was staying grounded so I didn't notice it right away, either, but when I realized he was actually approaching me with spaced JC shines. . . I was pretty impressed to say the least.
edit- On the topic of zhu, I'm not sure many people give him the credit he deserves for his advancement of the falco metagame. His style is very precise, calculated, positional and maximizing; it reminds me of Hax's falcon in that way, but was way ahead of his time.
RaynEX
Colonel RTSD
It feels really good
I remember the first time I really understood the gains of JC shines was when i played against zhu. At the time I was still maining marth. I don't remember any specific scenarios but I remember being shocked at how fast he was getting inside me with a shine. He was staying grounded so I didn't notice it right away, either, but when I realized he was actually approaching me with spaced JC shines. . . I was pretty impressed to say the least.
edit- On the topic of zhu, I'm not sure many people give him the credit he deserves for his advancement of the falco metagame. His style is very precise, calculated, positional and maximizing; it reminds me of Hax's falcon in that way, but was way ahead of his time.
This sounds really innovative. I can't visualize it in my head though...can either of you give a bit more detail as to what you mean by "spaced JC shines" for approaching purposes?
Lovage
Smash Hero
zhu's style was waaaaaaaaaay ahead of his time
still one of my favorite players tbh
still one of my favorite players tbh
ArcNatural
Banned ( ∫x, δx Points)
I'm pretty sure they are talking about the same difference between crouching to grab and JC grab.
Using JC Shine as an approach simply makes you cover more distance before the shine comes out.
Fried Ice Cream
Smash Ace
RaynEX, watch a Fox in SSB64 and notice how they use shine, best seen while tech chasing. Just dash, during the initial dash, jump and do a shine exactly the same time. You'll have run a small bit (like F-tilt range long) and do a shine at that point. It's really quick.
Fortress | Sveet
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I don't think he misunderstands the method of jump canceled shines (knowing raynex's history with shine tech skill ^^)
I tried to make a gif to show the difference between the two, but for some reason dolphin is freezing on me for an aerial shine
When i said spaced JC shines, i meant that he was not only using the speed of the shine to approach me but the precise distance he moved from the jump canceled bonus range to hit me with a shine.
I tried to make a gif to show the difference between the two, but for some reason dolphin is freezing on me for an aerial shine
When i said spaced JC shines, i meant that he was not only using the speed of the shine to approach me but the precise distance he moved from the jump canceled bonus range to hit me with a shine.
Sinji
Smash Master
Whats the best option after knocking down a character and they get up attack while your at mid percents? I know fsmash or usmash works on low percents (depending where you are in the stage), what about mid percents? Any advice?
Fortress | Sveet
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Unless you can't combo out of throws on that character, I would just grab since it gives you the most room for error.
Sinji
Smash Master
thanks and another question. What is the fastest way to usmash oos?
Fried Ice Cream
Smash Ace
I was ridiculously stupid and tried to jump out with Y and then quickly go to C-stick. Then I just hit up on the control stick and C-stick at the same time and immedeate success. I never did anything other than that, just hitting both sticks at the same time.
Fortress | Sveet
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Most people do the up and up method. M2K and Jman learned to claw their JC Usmashes to gain extra control. This means the index finger is used to press Y and the thumb for the cstick
Fried Ice Cream
Smash Ace
What is the advantage of clawing? How does it give you extra control?
Silent Wolf
...
Its not really extra control, its just a bit easier to tell when the Y/X input will go through than the up input.
but if ur g youll just flick the c stick up twice
Fortress | Sveet
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You dont relinquish control of the control stick, i think thats the biggest advantage. I still use up and up, and i can pivot usmash and i know my spacing, but i think its much easier/smarter to learn the claw method (you dont have to claw constantly, just move your finger up when the time comes).
THIS
Sinji
Smash Master
I dont use Y to jump, so I'll just do the up and up method.
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
Stupid question: Does anyone here, as a Fox main, have exercises that they do with their thumbs outside of Smash to help with tech skill? I put a decent amount of practice time in, but I find that I'm not moving fast enough, or not being accurate, or something. Or is it only a matter of more practice?
Bamesy
Smash Ace
lol brookman^
I claw sometimes by accident... It's like instinct that every once in a while my hands go that way and do something claw-style. It's messed up. Usually with Peach but sometimes just for things like Marth Fairs or whatever... so weird.
Pivot utilts where it's at.
I claw sometimes by accident... It's like instinct that every once in a while my hands go that way and do something claw-style. It's messed up. Usually with Peach but sometimes just for things like Marth Fairs or whatever... so weird.
Pivot utilts where it's at.
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
:D Good point.
RaynEX
Colonel RTSD
I didn't know it actually moved you forward slightly. News to me!
That's absolutely insane. When a space animal player wants to initiate shine pressure, it's usually achieved through aerial -> shine -> etc, etc. Extending the range of shine using a JC for that purpose is a great idea, albeit a tad execution heavy. Falco seems to be able to draw more use out of that than Fox does, though. The blue pidgeon gets a free combo if it connects, whereas Fox has a much harder time following the hit.I don't think he misunderstands the method of jump canceled shines (knowing raynex's history with shine tech skill ^^)
I tried to make a gif to show the difference between the two, but for some reason dolphin is freezing on me for an aerial shine
When i said spaced JC shines, i meant that he was not only using the speed of the shine to approach me but the precise distance he moved from the jump canceled bonus range to hit me with a shine.
I'm not so sure if the effort is worth the reward. (w/ Fox at least)
This is such a broad question lol
1. Run into your opponent and crouch cancel. You get a free move if they GU attack. This should be the preferred method of following techs at percents when you can CC. If they get up in place or attack you're crouching right in front of them, and you also have more than enough time to techchase them in either direction. This technique covers most options, with the only real prerequisite being moderate reaction time. This is an effective, universal option you should remember to implement whenever possible.
2. Your move selection in other situations depend on factors not limited to but including: stage positioning, character match-up, both player's %, and stage selection (blast zones, essentially). You have to decide whether it would be better to knock your opponent off for an edge-guard, or take them upstairs for combos. To force them onto platforms for more guaranteed damage, or manipulate survival d.i. for more elaborate follow-ups. The best advice I can give you for mid percents, is to punish them with either grab or u-smash. Grab USUALLY leads to combos at mid percents, as does u-smash. But again, this is all situation dependant - there is no definitive list of moves you should be using to techchase. Assess the knockdown and make an educated decision based on the characters and your surroundings.
Good luck!
It isn't a stupid question. That kind of thinking could hurt you in the future; always ask, no matter how silly the question may seem.
I wouldn't recommend having thumb-specific exercise regimens as part of your practice sessions. Stick to pouring your time into the game. Techskill grinding and PvP experience are the best ways to improve your speed and dexterity in smash. It didn't come easy or quickly for me, and it won't for you. Just be patient and keep working at it.
People bring this up all the time, not only in smash. In Starcraft 2, people will ask stuff like: will playing the Piano give me better micro and macro?
The answer is: yes, sorta. Doing finger-training routines that have nothing to do with the game will improve your general brain-finger coordination and speed. The best training, however, comes from the game itself, since you are practising the exact scenarios you need to be able to do.
edit: ahh crap, ninja'd.
Palpi
Smash Hero
I play piano and drums and guitar and trumpet...IM GONNA BE THE BEST AT THE TECH SKILLZ!!!
Sinji
Smash Master
We had a discussion about this but yea he's the best fox (right now). He hasn't taken fox to his full potential but he's the best fox without a shadow of a doubt.
unknown522
Some guy
I dunno about the "spaced" part either, but here's some examples that I was thinking of: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZwVzCYHhv0
@ 0:10 - After he hit you with the laser
@ 1:22 - Kinda, even though it wasn't JC'd. He also missed
@ 1:54 - again after a laser
he didn't do it at all game 2 though.
Also, another thing: I usually call it jumping-shine when we talk in person, but I think it's pretty much the same thing. I'll show you the next time we play falco dittos, or falco vs fox.
Moooose
Smash Champion
clawing is soo good for following the DI on an upthrow, like against marth. if you use your pointer to jump and your thumb to cstick, then your left thumb is free to take care of spacing perfectly.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
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- 26,565
agreed with moooose. I always claw to uthrow uair.
Bamesy
Smash Ace
That explains a LOT about me. Is this math and science? :O
lol
Soooo cute. :D
Palpi
Smash Hero
Had a local tourney today, and I got 6th, but my ****ing tech skill escaped me like last night and I couldn't ****ing shine oos or waveshine it was horrible, but I was still playing really smart, apart from techincal mistakes...that I rarely make otherwise. It was very frustrating =/
Palpi
Smash Hero
Haha, Waveshining and shine oos is simple! It just sucks because I was still playing well, just messing up stupid ****. But you're right, I just have to take it slower.
Wenbobular
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 26, 2006
- Messages
- 5,744
LIke what, playing Falco or something?
Wenbobular
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 26, 2006
- Messages
- 5,744
Well what I meant was if you're having problems waveshining you should probably play an easier character
Now that I think about it I should've said Falcon or Marth or something
Now that I think about it I should've said Falcon or Marth or something
Palpi
Smash Hero
That is what I was doing, but shine oos is infinitly better...oh well I messed up like 5-6 of them in the last game against this Falco player, Bones. He is good, but falco is my best match up =/
Wenbobular
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 26, 2006
- Messages
- 5,744
O this is that Pennsylvania thing that Bones went to haha
Dat Bones
Does he still Fsmash the ledge like a champ
Dat Bones
Does he still Fsmash the ledge like a champ