Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[bolt.]

Thankyou for the help, I'm about to try it out.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

yea link and peach are probably the only chars it works on. i don't think anyone has done it in recorded tournament play (who waveshines much anymore anyways?) but you might be able to find something on youtube if they called it the same thing. check mofo's stuff maybe.

 

[bolt.]

Nope, I can't find it anywhere. I checked mofo's youtube, he is the guy who plays smash and ddr right?

 

[Turazrok]

What is fox's best option once he's hanging from the ledge (attempting to get back on the stage)?

 

[L__]

They're all situational

 

[RaynEX]

Nope, I can't find it anywhere. I checked mofo's youtube, he is the guy who plays smash and ddr right?

Cruel waveshining was something I ran into when I first started playing. In theory it should work, but you add d.i. to the equation and this cool idea begins to fall apart. You would be better off learning to waveshine a character consecutively in one direction. Its practical and still sort of flashy; it even navigates around that bothersome problem of d.i. escapes vs. Peach etc.

Even if you perform a perfect WD when attempting to "cruel" waveshine, I'm pretty sure you can't get behind Peach/Link/C.Fal (with full away or smash d.i.) and shine them in the other direction. Remember, you'd have to shine, turn around, and perfect WD as fast as possible and end up behind them. If you do it a second too slow, they escape the shine's hitstun.

Good luck >_>

What is fox's best option once he's hanging from the ledge (attempting to get back on the stage)?

Don't dair first. Everyone expects a ledge-hop dair. His best option is ledge-wavedashing. You have complete invincibility if you do it right. Nothing else he has does that. Nothing your opponent has can counter that. Too be quite honest, I can't even name another character off the top of my head that has indefinite protection like that to the extent that Fox does. Falco's isn't as good because his jump is too slow, and thus part of his invincibility is spent simply jumping. Frame-wise this is your best option as a Fox player.

If you perform a near perfect ledge-dash, you are completely invincible, and then you can roll at the end of your wavedash for even more invincibility. You cover almost half of FD with complete invulnerability this way.

Ledge dash into shield, roll, sidestep, USMASH, jumps.. it all works. Just watch your opponent and react accordingly once you land on the stage.

Tapping forward on your control stick to get up is also really good. Its fast, and doesn't keep you stuck in lag for too long.

Try your best to avoid ledge-hop illusions and simple ledge-hop aerials unless they've been working consistently against your opponent.

edit: Don't forget that the amount of invincibility you have when WDing onto the stage correlates directly with how long you've been hanging on the edge. You receive frames of god-mode for simply grabbing it, so the faster you get on the stage the more of these frames you have. If you spend two days thinking about what to do, THEN wavedash/ledge-hop on... GGs.

 

[CunningKitsune]

What is fox's best option once he's hanging from the ledge (attempting to get back on the stage)?

I would strongly caution against adopting such simplistic mindsets as the "best option" as this very much harms one's adaptive capabilities. Your choice of return should always be based upon a myriad of factors, such as your previous recovery choices, your opponent's previous reads and spacing relative to the edge, your own technical comfort zone, and so on. In short, you must be thorough yet quick in appraising the risk-reward trade-offs of your decisions, both in terms of recovery and in all other aspects of game play. Never settle for one quick fix as this will make you a one-dimensional player who can be predicted and punished with minimal effort. That said, however, it is rarely a good idea to choose any of Fox's over-100 options from the ledge; the start-up lag for these is quite large and flagrantly telegraphs your decision. At such percents, wavelanding on-stage is one of the best alternatives available to you, particularly if you can consistently perform it such that you still have invincibility (even during this, however, you must still be wary of your opponent's spacing).

 

[Stratford]

Fox can do thunders from the ledge. It's funny.

 

[bolt.]

I don't actually want to learn cruel waveshine for matches. It just sounded interesting and wanted a video to see of people have tried it. Trying new things is always fun though. Of coarse its on top of practicing the basics because a strong fundamentals are always best. Btw, I can already comfortable waveshine, and to anyone who read my first post in this thread, I can do the wall jump on the bottom of FoD now. =D Thanks for all the help/ opinions.

 

[TresChikon]

Hey, how does Fox do in teams with Luigi?

 

[EC_Joey]

Hey, how does Fox do in teams with Luigi?

Depends on the Fox player's playstyle. If it's an aggressive, high-pressure playstyle, he does better with a good support character, preferably a stocktank. Examples would be Peach or Sheik.

If it's a passive, supportive Fox player, then an aggressively played character would be a good match such as Falcon or Falco.

Luigi isn't that great of a teammate. He has some really bad matchups and he's not that great of a stocktank with his light weight and mediocre recovery. With a really good aggressive Luigi, you could pull it off if the Fox can keep Luigi from getting edgeguarded.

 

[Dynamism?]

Hey, how does Fox do in teams with Luigi?

****ing ***** **** all over the place

Fox terrorizes while ripping around all over the place and picking people off with usmashs and shinespikes while weegee fairs and dairs the **** out of everything while comboing everyone off stage from every hit he gets for fox to pick off

both can get anywhere on the stage faster than almost any character too...

check out Ka Master + Eggz
probably the best Weegee/Foxy duo to date....

Too good

Variola

Weegee is a decent stock tank and can recover just as well as Fox can (maybe easier in doubles even) as his projection isn't distinct or tracked with 3 people around. He makes a wall like Jiggs but combos 5 times as well. He doesn't need the offstage stuff with a Fox around that a shiek could do but he can stop Fox from getting comboed since he can get around so well and not get comboed (like a jiggs)

Ideal teamate for Fox/Falcon (characters with single big hits) cause everytime Luigi hits, he can give enough % to kill off the next combo (uthrow uair etc). Fox and Falcon can approach hard and getting abused for fastfallingness isn't a problem, and Luigi covers area like a constant Peach dsmash

 

[TresChikon]

So just play uber support and finish off his edgeguards/combos? Cuz his d-smash and nair are just so amazing.

Sounds like weegee's combos really compliment Fox's finishers.

 

[Byron 1337]

RaynEx- When are we gonna play next?

 

[Stratford]

Fox does best in teams with Azen.

 

[RaynEX]

RaynEx- When are we gonna play next?

No idea. lol

Fox does best in teams with Azen.

Azen is so good in teams. He's just a smart player.

 

[Rubyiris]

Depends on the Fox player's playstyle. If it's an aggressive, high-pressure playstyle, he does better with a good support character, preferably a stocktank. Examples would be Peach or Sheik.

If it's a passive, supportive Fox player, then an aggressively played character would be a good match such as Falcon or Falco.

Luigi isn't that great of a teammate. He has some really bad matchups and he's not that great of a stocktank with his light weight and mediocre recovery. With a really good aggressive Luigi, you could pull it off if the Fox can keep Luigi from getting edgeguarded.

I personally believe that Luigi's survivability becomes much higher in teams.

 

[TresChikon]

Does anyone feel that shining a Firefox midway without ledge-invincibility is harder than shining an illusion?

I mean at least you have the "ping" cue for the illusion.

Anyone have some tips on getting the timing for Firefoxes?

I rely just on visuals, but even then I mess up if I don't have ledge-invincibility.

 

[CanISmash]

real men don't need invincibility.

seriously you have a lot less options and angles you can cover hanging from the ledge holding onto invincibility. most good foxes can **** firefox at any point, just practice the spacing and stuff. the more you try the easier it'll come...

 

[ZoSo]

The main problem with Luigi in teams is that it takes him so long to recover. Meanwhile, his teammate is on the stage getting *****.

Tres: If you're just asking out of curiosity, I'm sorry I can't be more helpful. Otherwise, you're way better off just bairing.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

the thing about the illusion is that the character essentially travels in bursts and even if you do hit them, chances are you are going to hit them into the stage.

 

[EC_Joey]

Does anyone feel that shining a Firefox midway without ledge-invincibility is harder than shining an illusion?

I mean at least you have the "ping" cue for the illusion.

Anyone have some tips on getting the timing for Firefoxes?

I rely just on visuals, but even then I mess up if I don't have ledge-invincibility.

Shining them while slightly above or below the path of their firefox works for me.

 

[Stratford]

Yea if they're angling the firefox slightly above the edge and you're hanging on the edge, it seems easier to ledgedrop and jump so you're slightly above their trajectory for the shine. Of course if you can time it so you can renew the invincibility, that's preferable.

 

[TresChikon]

The main problem with Luigi in teams is that it takes him so long to recover. Meanwhile, his teammate is on the stage getting *****.

Tres: If you're just asking out of curiosity, I'm sorry I can't be more helpful. Otherwise, you're way better off just bairing.

Hmm.. good point about Luigi. His survival rate is way better, but he just takes forever to get back.

Bairing, oh lulz, but shine is so much cooler.

The usual situation I get is when I didn't shine him while he was charging, so I have to go for the midway kill directly out of my first shine.

But bair is **** anywhere else.

Shining them while slightly above or below the path of their firefox works for me.

Hah, I always do it head on. Thanks for the tip!

the thing about the illusion is that the character essentially travels in bursts and even if you do hit them, chances are you are going to hit them into the stage.

So you have like multiple opportunities to hit them?

I didn't know that, I always thought it was a single target and a single chance and I was just good at shining.

it seems easier to ledgedrop and jump so you're slightly above their trajectory for the shine.

just practice the spacing and stuff. the more you try the easier it'll come...

I guess practice makes perfect, thanks guys.

I've been trying to pull off quick gimps in teams whenever my partner manages to get them offstage, which is fun.

 

[RaynEX]

I guess practice makes perfect, thanks guys.

I've been trying to pull off quick gimps in teams whenever my partner manages to get them offstage, which is fun.

Ahh gimping.

imo, its the only time in a doubles match where the kill takes priority over your teammates life. You might not get another chance to take an opponent's stock at 0-20 percent. If your teammate is at high percent anyways, then going for the gimp is even more worth it.

Aside from that, every choice you make in regards to approaching, comboing, edge-guarding, etc, should be planned with your teammate's fate in mind. One misplaced bair, interrupted edge-guard, or accidental act of kindness (towards your opponent), will probably cost you the game. Doubles is so **** hard to be good at, agreed?

Basically, anything that saves your opponent's stock that should have been taken, or takes away one of your own in a stupid way - will probably cost you the game.

(or make it really, really hard to maintain control and win.)

the end

 

[PB&J]

i think fox can team with anybody in the game play anyway he wants and the other character can till be a support character. alot of characters are still no used alot in teams and should be..when fox is on your side

 

[voorhese]

i recently attended a tourney, and played fox dittos agaisnt 2 people i usually play agaisnt at these tourneys, but in are matches (aswell as everymatch i played there) i was getting jabbed/grabed like 50% more than usual, it was like they would jab-> grab me w/ or w/ out my sheild

it seemed as if anytime i put up my sheild i was gonna get grabbed, and if i didnt i would get jabbed->grabbed, it sucked, and i want to know how to do this/ avoid it (are they doing something special to cancel their jab so they can grab me faster?, like pressing down or something, would jab->down->jc->grab work?)

thx

 

[RaynEX]

Jab grabbing is extremely easy to avoid. After you get hit the the jab you can jump straight up, their grab whiffs, punish on the way down.

Alternatively:

-CC the jab and shine. As soon as you see that you've been hit by the jab, even if you miss the CC - just spam shine. Jab->grab isn't a combo and there is alot of time in between it.

-CC usmash or just usmash after the jab as he's running.

-Buffer roll in either direction, or buffer sidestep and counter-attack.


etc etc etc

No, jab cancelling allows you to cancel Fox's jab combo so you can keep poking with the first hit. His first hit of jab has the most range I think, so its common for some Foxes to jab->down-jab->down etc.

They aren't doing anything special.

 

[noodles]

People get pressured while people are comboing making it easier XD. A more useful way to get the jab/grab is when people are about to tech off the ground since they are usually holding r/l plus direction. The better players wont fall for it but sometimes you can get away with it.

 

[voorhese]

@ raynex: what if they try to jab->grab my sheild?, still jump out of it and punish a nair or dair or something? ill see if i can find a vid of them playing\

here the newest vid i can find is of one of them vs me 5 months ago (when i first was learning fox)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQ1f9sJ2JhU

he does it @ 2:27 (start here)
@ 6:32 is what i think you want me to do wit shine
lol @7:33

 

[RaynEX]

@ raynex: what if they try to jab->grab my sheild?, still jump out of it and punish a nair or dair or something? ill see if i can find a vid of them playing\

here the newest vid i can find is of one of them vs me 5 months ago (when i first was learning fox)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQ1f9sJ2JhU

he does it @ 2:27 (start here)
@ 6:32 is what i think you want me to do wit shine
lol @7:33

You can shine and buffer roll all of that. Whether he hits your shield OR your body. You just aren't reacting to it. If you know he likes to aerial -> jab. Start buffering a defensive option or hitting down and B to counter him after the jab. It seems to me that you're just getting scared and staying in shield. : /

 

[ChivalRuse]

So there are a lot of Falcons in the CP area, (Thumbs, Skyheart, Chred, Voodoo, Wenbo, Winston, etc.) and I've been getting better at the match-up consequently.

Some Falcons are more DD heavy and wait for Fox to commit to a haphazard nair; if you happen to oblige them, they'll JC grab or pivot grab you, and the result is a painful tech chase. I've found there are several ways to adapt to this. One method is to DD camp back until they get impatient and approach with side b, stomp, knee, or nair. My answer to this is, of course, to outspace them with the DD and grab. Another thing that I do somewhat frequently is "feint" a nair approach. I don't mean that I pretend to nair, but I nair very passively (which I've noticed Jman doing from time to time). I assume that I'm going to be pivot grabbed/what have you. Therefore, I will perhaps jab, which usually has the range to interrupt a grab. Or, if I'm being extremely cautious, I'll simply complete the SHFFL'ed nair, and immediately foxtrot away. This nair feint usually draws a reaction from the Falcon, and I punished the whiffed grab/stomp/side b with a grab/nair.

However, of late some of my friends have begun to space retreating nairs. I'm kind of struggling to find an answer to this. Can I get some help on this scenario? Fox vs Falcon when Falcon spams retreating nair. Thanks.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

when he does something, run in and hit him with a nair and then keep on the pressure til he is dead.

retreating nair works by trying to maximize the distance between you after he commits to the move. your best bet is to simply run after him sooner and nair him, or get him inside your range (and be out of his) and then you can easily cover his options from there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynjeIlBAIGM your bible

 

[ChivalRuse]

So I decided to go into training mode and test out Fox's CC. I've been hearing for a while that Sheik has to get spacies to like 40% so they can't CC her dash attack. That sounded a bit low to me, so I tried it myself. Old news, I know, but turns out Fox can CC Sheik's strong dash attack until 64% (meaning if she hits you at 64% you will CC it). And that's just the strong dash attack. I have no idea how long the weak dash attack is CCable.

I bring this up because a friend of mine and I were discussing the Sheik/Fox match-up. I play very defensively with Fox (arguably a bad thing). But my playstyle forces Sheik to go on the aggressive. The nice thing is that Sheik has very few viable approaches. 1. Dash attack. 2. Running dtilt. 3. Grab (unreliable as an approach, without mindgames). 4. Walk/wavedash into ftilt (also bad and leaves you ridiculously vulnerable to a nair). Dash attack is the most versatile and combos better than dtilt usually. Thus, I will say it's probably one of her better, if not best, options.

Now, Fox's dtilt and dsmash aren't amazing. But hey, you can always CC her dash attack into a shine, grab, or upsmash.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

Sheik's approach game isn't that head on. She does silly things around you to make you want to hit her, then she comes after you.

 

[ChivalRuse]

But when all's said and done, and Sheik finishes her little dance, what does she hit you with?

My point is that if you don't go after her, she's limited in what she can do.

Another point - Fox moves a little too fast for aerial needles to be worth using. Fair, nair, or bair is almost always better at that range. And standing needles simply are too slow/predictable/punishable.

She really has little to do against a campy Fox.

 

[Dynamism?]

Doubles is so **** hard to be good at, agreed?

I actually find it opposite... but that's why I'm called '******** in a good way' over here lol

I've never been good at singles. For the most part it's because I don't move. (I don't DD with Marth unless it's just one dash > pivot or something... example)

I play a very 'sit and walk into the spaces I want to go' style. 1 v 1 I feel safe everywhere and stand around in bursts and just be smart. (been told I'm EXACTLY like a slow cactuar [don't even know how that's supposed to make sense/work])

But then in doubles, because I play such a 'go to good spots' style, my teamate and me never get gimped and I pick people off well. (I've had good chemistry from game 1 with every person I've teamed with because of this)
It's impossible to explain really.
Me singles = only beat people that get baited decently (exaging lol)
Me doubles = legit threat for first no matter who I'm with (exaging lol)

:\




It's tough to camp a Sheik that's a dash attack away, WDing and DDing back and forth while SHFFing all over your face, though it's doable. Just scary. For sure better off with pressure and distance camping. Fox has a good approach and camp game, pretty sure he needs both in this case.

Watch the latest M2K vs Eggz set. Eggz plays amazing against him and it's an overall great set from both sides.

 

[TresChikon]

So what if you're teaming with someone who's just as lazy as you are?

Shouldn't there be at least one testosterone crazed teammate in a team?

Doubles make me feel like any experience I have in singles means squat. I guess some people just have it easy.

Being defensive against Sheik is like the best thing to do when you're trying to gain momentum imo. Just CC everything and once you get some mojo going, keep up the ****.

It makes me feel like a lazy Peach just squatting there and camping for CC ****. It feels good though. Foxes never get to be lazy.

 

[MarsFool!]

If the sheik is letting you do that then they arent playing very smart.

And you shouldnt feel lazy playign peach in teams lol, she covers small amounts of space well so when things get cramped shes your go to girl.

Also Singles helps get the momentum for combos/spacing/reading opponents up, but doubles helps with pressure and whats referred to in teh MvC2 community as a *point game* aka execution aka what youre capable of as soon as you land a hit.

 

[Tomacawk]

I think all fox mains should have a really solid falcon secondary.
Playing falcon has taught me to pick up on habits of my opponents, to read them, and has taught me quite a bit about spacing. Falcon has also given me an edge in tourny--matchups i suck at with fox (ics, ganon, peach, samus, marf) I can play with falcon, and I always have the ability to counterpick to a gay fox map
thoughts?