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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-
- Thread starter Silent Wolf
- Start date
TresChikon
Smash Lord
I sometimes get grabbed out of my drills, but maybe thats just cuz I suck.
Anyways, the best thing you can do is do a retreating WD OoS and restart your approach.
Getting pinned to your shield against Fox may lead to you getting grabbed, and that isn't too pretty.
Anyways, the best thing you can do is do a retreating WD OoS and restart your approach.
Getting pinned to your shield against Fox may lead to you getting grabbed, and that isn't too pretty.
Stratford
Smash Champion
Out of shield.
Or out of state where appropriate. lol.
Or out of state where appropriate. lol.
Fortress | Sveet
▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
Never do everything all the time. Everything can be punished.
TresChikon
Smash Lord
^ Sig-worthy
Buffer a roll. Hold c-stick away from him while you're in your shield.
TresChikon
Smash Lord
If the Fox is mindlessly pillaring your shield, you can lightshield and tilt your shield upawards to throw off his timing if he isn't adapting too well.
Just be sure to JC a grab since you can't SG from a lightshield as fast as you can from a hard shield.
Just be sure to JC a grab since you can't SG from a lightshield as fast as you can from a hard shield.
Tomacawk
Smash Master
raynex-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61NAw43J8E8
![[FBC] ESAM](/data/avatars/l/92/92614.jpg?1365783210){kind=avatar}
[FBC] ESAM
Smash Legend
Did you guys know that if you are falling and u uair, and only the first part connects, you can lead into U-smash, grab, and (obviously) shine? It could be useful for mindgames or for a free U-smash setup from a SHFFL'd uair. Sorry if this is already known
If a Fox is already up in your face (or in your shield as the case may be), changing the size or location of your shield won't help. In fact, it'll probably just make things worse because light shields incur more shieldstun, so anything you do out of your shield will be slower.
The main use for tilting your shield is when somebody is falling on top of you with an aerial (Fox nair, Falco dair, et cetera). Because your shield is physically higher, it takes longer for them to land after hitting your shield and therefore longer for them to be able to act again, buying you some time to (hopefully) **** them.
Also, you can't shieldgrab as fast from a lightshield because (as I mentioned earlier) light shields incur more shieldstun. JC grabbing doesn't help this at all and is strictly worse than conventional shield grabbing.
TresChikon
Smash Lord
Didn't know that.
Does this mean I should stop lightshielding against Falco and stick to hardshielding if I'm trying to go for a grab?
Is it still wise to move the shield around to avoid pokes while under pressure?
Yes. Although, light shields also have less traction, so you will occasionally slide out of range of their shine after they hit you once and be able to grab. I wouldn't rely on it, though.
Most definitely. It's good on platforms too.
AXE 09
Smash Master
does fox's forward b go further than his up b? or vice versa? or do they both go the same distance? (talking about horizontal distance)
Tomacawk
Smash Master
up b goes slightly further
falco's side b goes slightly further than falco's up b, tho
falco's side b goes slightly further than falco's up b, tho
Zelda's a silly character.
Eh, Dair to shine/grab/jab upsmash seems better. Also I think if anyone is going to do a falling uair, it's most effective to just try to kill with the full Uair.
TresChikon
Smash Lord
If you angle it at 10-15 degrees, the hang time can give you more horizontal distance than angling completely at the horizontal. It's much more than illusion either way though.
Raining U-air is **** in teams
So aside from defensive/retreating maneuvers, lightshielding is rather impractical as far as turning the tide in a spacie battle goes, correct?
TresChikon
Smash Lord
Yay thanks, now I suck slightly less.
Does anyone ever Doraki with Fox anymore?
I like using it in conjunction with a DJ to as an alternative to holing jump from the ledge or using it to sneak in a quick bair.
Does anyone ever Doraki with Fox anymore?
I like using it in conjunction with a DJ to as an alternative to holing jump from the ledge or using it to sneak in a quick bair.
Tomacawk
Smash Master
sometimes i dorakai shine turn around bair if it's peach or samus recovering from really high
not really practical tho
not really practical tho
Silent Wolf
...
his up-b goes further if you have any momentum (other than falling) before you start the up-b
edit: if you do a rising side-b as soon as you start tumbling it goes the furthest of falcos recoveries, except for like, when you have full run momentum and do an up-b off a platform
Meneks
Smash Lord
Doraki is always a fun trick, I hate when i do it on accident though and side B to my death.
Edit: I need help playing against peach.
should i stop jabbing/nairing and start drilling?
Which one of fox's moves out prioritizes her nair?
What are some good cp stages while using fox?
Peach has ALOT of good stages, how should i approach her on fod/mute city?
Edit: I need help playing against peach.
should i stop jabbing/nairing and start drilling?
Which one of fox's moves out prioritizes her nair?
What are some good cp stages while using fox?
Peach has ALOT of good stages, how should i approach her on fod/mute city?
CanISmash
Smash Lord
this is a new problem fairly new i never had before........ why the **** do i keep light shielding when i drill grab.
also this is a fairly old question but yeah how do you switch from light to normal shield without dropping it.
and how do you do the pretty light/full shield thing for flashiness.
edit: if you play peach and dont ban mute and dont secondary jiggs... you are a dumb. =p all jokes but seriously.
i think the general idea is to drill shine up-smash peach., and grab. just watch out for the wd back d-smash.
also this is a fairly old question but yeah how do you switch from light to normal shield without dropping it.
and how do you do the pretty light/full shield thing for flashiness.
edit: if you play peach and dont ban mute and dont secondary jiggs... you are a dumb. =p all jokes but seriously.
i think the general idea is to drill shine up-smash peach., and grab. just watch out for the wd back d-smash.
Silent Wolf
...
dont rely on jabs vs peach, drills are good.
go for drill, as many waveshines as you can do before you reach the edge of the stage, then grab, or utilt, then uair (uthrow if grabbed). doing more than one or two drills in your waveshine combos can make it easy for a good peach to smash DI out, so stick with waveshines or switch it up.
dont try to challenge the nair, just laser and wait for a real opening.
cp kongo jungle 64 and shoot one laser and run away the whole match, theres no way peach can get you, lol.
dont approach her, when you have to just try to jump and shine her away and make more of an opening.
when you camp peach you dont want to just run to the other side of the stage and let her corner you, just stay pretty close and laser, this way youll find more opening before she can corner you, as opposed to just one and a few extra lasers
Silent Wolf
...
1 - youre pressing Z before youre able to grab
2 - to switch, hold r and a and press z
3 - idk what ur talking about. the edge hog?
Stratford
Smash Champion
Light shield with either L or R. Spam shield with the other one. I believe...
Fortress | Sveet
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I realized what fox's shine really is. The blue flash is the censor while he slaps you with his dong. Pause and zoom in on frame one, his pants are down.
Byron 1337
Smash Journeyman
Hey, I'm a smasher who has good tech skill and knows what to do in character matchups. I'm trying to develop my mental games. Any tips?
JBM falcon08
Smash Master
^ Bait people. Think.about how you will punish.
He's probably talking about Peach punishing your approach with backwards wavedash to dsmash.
[FBC] ESAM
Smash Legend
But you can't U-smash out of shine on characters that fall from it, nor can you get a U-smash at high % from a grab. Jab can work, but uair is at all %s so it would be good to get them i think.
Fortress | Sveet
▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
if they are too high to get a usmash from a jab, then you can uair or nair/bair for probably an instant kill (don't they have to be ~200% to not be usmashed from jab?)
Silent Wolf
...
on characters that fall from shine it would be more practical to dair utilt, then uair or light nair to uair or shine.
[FBC] ESAM
Smash Legend
Thats true. Just thought i would bring it up.
**** man it is so hard to get out of the habit of sliding my fingers when i'm waveshining. Is there an easy way to retrain my fingers other than going into training mode for 20 hours and practicing resetting the position and then wavedashing?
**** man it is so hard to get out of the habit of sliding my fingers when i'm waveshining. Is there an easy way to retrain my fingers other than going into training mode for 20 hours and practicing resetting the position and then wavedashing?
TresChikon
Smash Lord
That means Fox is technically bigger than Falco since his hitbox is larger
voorhese
Smash Master
well if you think about it birds dont have uh..... certain body parts so of course fox is bigger
RaynEX
Colonel RTSD
Sorry for the late critiques guys. I still have one more person left to do. I'll do Toma's other vids later today.
Most of the advice I'll be giving is really specific. I have a feeling you guys know what you're doing, but you need those tiny nudges in the right direction to rise to the top level.
-You seem really hesitant to make the first move alot of the time. At one point, I noticed you shielding and SHing oos in place. It feels like your DD game needs some work, and because you aren't as fluent with it as you need to be you play the patience game. Trust me, I understand that simply telling you to DD isn't going to instantly remedy your distanced play. Maybe a short digression on what its good for will help you understand what you should be doing. I thank KK for explaining to me about a year and a half ago what I should be thinking about when hitting left and right on the control stick.
DDing: It's mostly a spacing tool and allows you to see the opponent's responses to approach/retreat options without committing to the slight lag of either jumping, landing, or your attack lag. It can be used to scout defensive play by the opponent and sometimes create openings because it can intimidate them, especially if it's a long dash dance such as Fox's, Falcon's or Marth's.
DDing is especially useful in Fox dittos, thats more or less the reason I wanted to talk about iit. Everyone tries to do it, but few people can use it correctly; and understandably so - it's much harder to apply than people think. I hope I didn't steal your time by talking about something you already knew.
-Your movement game and fluidity need some work. This can tie into DDing. Just controlling your character better in general, really.
-You sidestepped alot of attacks, but you rarely followed up accordingly. Brain lapse? Grab or shine or usmash. I know you can fix this habit in like a day.
-2:31 Match 1, if you see opponent Fox aligning himself for the sweetspot, just grab the edge. An onstage bair won't hit in most cases. 2:35, why did you jump off? You had his stock. If you had been a bit more patient on the edge you could have just hogged him. When you're edge-guarding, watch what your opponent is doing and where they are. If they are far enough away from the stage for you to hog them, then grab the edge and wait it out. Focusing on their character also allows you to react to firefox sweetspots and other methods of recovery, and counter them more quickly. If they try to sweetspot, WD off and hog, fsmash, ftilt, or a really close dsmash will all work.
-Good lord...Match 2. AT the very beginning, you need to understand how you got thrown off the stage so quickly. What did you do to almost cause that loss of stock? You fullhopped and daired when your opponent wasn't doing anything. They had free range to counter your EXTREMELY telegraphed attack however they pleased. SFAT decided to DD and grab you. You have to THINK MORE. If you just throw out attacks at random like that you'll get gimped left and right. What makes it worse is, he was right by the ledge. You really have to be more careful. DD, laser, space and approach safely. If you plan on FH approaching, do it at a time when your opponent is occupied/distracted, or at the very least not near the edge.
-1:16 Match 2. You did the same thing. This time you fullhopped and double jumped right above SFAT (this partially takes away your ability to decide where you land). He saw that you couldn't go anywhere else, ran back and grabbed. Everything in a match matters. When you get to top level, one grab is all a good opponents need to take your stock/chase you till you die. Don't give your opponents easy opportunities like this. Try FH, falling close to the ground to fake a landing, then djing and attacking with a FF.
-Man SFAT had some sexy d.i. on that last nair. lmao
-You did a bit better in match 3. But instances of your old self came back. 2:33, notice what happened? If you don't know what to do, don't randomly start double jumping. lol
Hope I helped!
-When you get grabs on Falco, uthrow uthrow uthrow. You can utilt, usmash, re-grab w/e afterwards.
-Keep working on your lcancels and your movement game. You'll see that fooling around on big platformed stages like Dreamland is good for that kind of stuff. I would definitely recommend power training your waveshining. Back and forth across FD until you can do it in both directions. They don't have to be perfect as long as they allow you to combo other characters. Check your progress vs. computer falcons and peaches. Waveshine into usmash/grab. Waveshine is also useful vs. Fastfallers (this includes Fox/Falco/Falcon). After you hit them with the shine, WD forward and jab. WD forward and chasing your grounded opponent also works.
-Try throwing in an utilt every now and then. I didn't see it used much. Put the utilt out there when your back is turned at close range, or if your opponent is coming at you from above.
Remember that everyone has to start somewhere. From what I saw, the biggest obstacle for you is going to be isolating Fox's techniques and learning them. Pick and choose different USEFUL aspects of his game and put time and effort into learning how to apply them. Waveshining, edge-guarding using bair and shine (from the ledge), Dashdancing, character specific combos, approaching stategies, defensive options, gimping, chaingrabbing, etc.
Make sure to post vids of your progress, and good luck!
I am aware that these videos are a bit outdated, but it is the most recent I have and I was hoping to have more uploaded, but I was never recorded again. Please excuse the crappy quality, it is the best we had.
. Its alright if she shields, but if it hits weak (or strong at low percents) GGs. I'd suggest using it when she's above 50/60, and when she's airborne. Nair + floating peach = combo city.
-If Peach Fairs your shield, wait out the jabs. I'm saw that at one point you blocked the fair, blocked the first jab, then sidestepped the second. This tells us that usmash out of shield probably works after her first jab. Regardless, play it safe and be patient once she fairs your shield.
-Less jabs
-2:15 is another example of how nair could have ****ed you over.
-For most of the match, I was thinking about how limited and redundant your movement and approach was. I barely saw any grab attempts at all. I also didn't see you actively thinking about your spacing and what moves to do to keep her away. It seemed like you knew in your mind that you needed to laser and DD, but you got bored and ran in headfirst after a while. When you DD in midrange, stay sharp and get ready to bair her if she moves into your territory. If she somehow lags in your space, you're close enough to counterattack with dair to whatever. If she starts putting up shield expecting your approach (and maybe trying to nair oos), go for a grab or something. Jump over and bair from behind and begin pressure.
Overall, the match was pretty good, but there a few things you need to work on. Namely:
-not running in so often and learning to get hits in a different way.
-smart spacing near an edge to avoid Peach's upb but still be in range to react to her get-up options.
-more d.i. on her dash attack if she hits you while recovering. 0:35
-less nair and jabs when needed. Learn to balance spaced bairs, nairs, and dairs.
But this is all just really minor and specific information. You're already pretty good. I'm sorry if this isn't that kind of information you were looking for. Hope I helped.
Most of the advice I'll be giving is really specific. I have a feeling you guys know what you're doing, but you need those tiny nudges in the right direction to rise to the top level.
-You seem really hesitant to make the first move alot of the time. At one point, I noticed you shielding and SHing oos in place. It feels like your DD game needs some work, and because you aren't as fluent with it as you need to be you play the patience game. Trust me, I understand that simply telling you to DD isn't going to instantly remedy your distanced play. Maybe a short digression on what its good for will help you understand what you should be doing. I thank KK for explaining to me about a year and a half ago what I should be thinking about when hitting left and right on the control stick.
DDing: It's mostly a spacing tool and allows you to see the opponent's responses to approach/retreat options without committing to the slight lag of either jumping, landing, or your attack lag. It can be used to scout defensive play by the opponent and sometimes create openings because it can intimidate them, especially if it's a long dash dance such as Fox's, Falcon's or Marth's.
DDing is especially useful in Fox dittos, thats more or less the reason I wanted to talk about iit. Everyone tries to do it, but few people can use it correctly; and understandably so - it's much harder to apply than people think. I hope I didn't steal your time by talking about something you already knew.
-Your movement game and fluidity need some work. This can tie into DDing. Just controlling your character better in general, really.
-You sidestepped alot of attacks, but you rarely followed up accordingly. Brain lapse? Grab or shine or usmash. I know you can fix this habit in like a day.
-2:31 Match 1, if you see opponent Fox aligning himself for the sweetspot, just grab the edge. An onstage bair won't hit in most cases. 2:35, why did you jump off? You had his stock. If you had been a bit more patient on the edge you could have just hogged him. When you're edge-guarding, watch what your opponent is doing and where they are. If they are far enough away from the stage for you to hog them, then grab the edge and wait it out. Focusing on their character also allows you to react to firefox sweetspots and other methods of recovery, and counter them more quickly. If they try to sweetspot, WD off and hog, fsmash, ftilt, or a really close dsmash will all work.
-Good lord...Match 2. AT the very beginning, you need to understand how you got thrown off the stage so quickly. What did you do to almost cause that loss of stock? You fullhopped and daired when your opponent wasn't doing anything. They had free range to counter your EXTREMELY telegraphed attack however they pleased. SFAT decided to DD and grab you. You have to THINK MORE. If you just throw out attacks at random like that you'll get gimped left and right. What makes it worse is, he was right by the ledge. You really have to be more careful. DD, laser, space and approach safely. If you plan on FH approaching, do it at a time when your opponent is occupied/distracted, or at the very least not near the edge.
-1:16 Match 2. You did the same thing. This time you fullhopped and double jumped right above SFAT (this partially takes away your ability to decide where you land). He saw that you couldn't go anywhere else, ran back and grabbed. Everything in a match matters. When you get to top level, one grab is all a good opponents need to take your stock/chase you till you die. Don't give your opponents easy opportunities like this. Try FH, falling close to the ground to fake a landing, then djing and attacking with a FF.
-Man SFAT had some sexy d.i. on that last nair. lmao
-You did a bit better in match 3. But instances of your old self came back. 2:33, notice what happened? If you don't know what to do, don't randomly start double jumping. lol
Hope I helped!
-Very first edge-guard in the match, just run off and grab the edge. You gain invincibility from it, and it makes shining them that much easier.
-When you get grabs on Falco, uthrow uthrow uthrow. You can utilt, usmash, re-grab w/e afterwards.
-Keep working on your lcancels and your movement game. You'll see that fooling around on big platformed stages like Dreamland is good for that kind of stuff. I would definitely recommend power training your waveshining. Back and forth across FD until you can do it in both directions. They don't have to be perfect as long as they allow you to combo other characters. Check your progress vs. computer falcons and peaches. Waveshine into usmash/grab. Waveshine is also useful vs. Fastfallers (this includes Fox/Falco/Falcon). After you hit them with the shine, WD forward and jab. WD forward and chasing your grounded opponent also works.
-Try throwing in an utilt every now and then. I didn't see it used much. Put the utilt out there when your back is turned at close range, or if your opponent is coming at you from above.
Remember that everyone has to start somewhere. From what I saw, the biggest obstacle for you is going to be isolating Fox's techniques and learning them. Pick and choose different USEFUL aspects of his game and put time and effort into learning how to apply them. Waveshining, edge-guarding using bair and shine (from the ledge), Dashdancing, character specific combos, approaching stategies, defensive options, gimping, chaingrabbing, etc.
Make sure to post vids of your progress, and good luck!
I am aware that these videos are a bit outdated, but it is the most recent I have and I was hoping to have more uploaded, but I was never recorded again. Please excuse the crappy quality, it is the best we had.
-First thing I notice was 0:12. Don't approach like that. Vs. any other Peach you would've ate 30-40%. Its very easy to go auto-pilot with Fox when you're running in trying to hit your opponent, but remember that dair is almost always better against a grounded CC whores. Throughout the match, you continue running in and nairing
. Its alright if she shields, but if it hits weak (or strong at low percents) GGs. I'd suggest using it when she's above 50/60, and when she's airborne. Nair + floating peach = combo city.-If Peach Fairs your shield, wait out the jabs. I'm saw that at one point you blocked the fair, blocked the first jab, then sidestepped the second. This tells us that usmash out of shield probably works after her first jab. Regardless, play it safe and be patient once she fairs your shield.
-Less jabs
-2:15 is another example of how nair could have ****ed you over.
-For most of the match, I was thinking about how limited and redundant your movement and approach was. I barely saw any grab attempts at all. I also didn't see you actively thinking about your spacing and what moves to do to keep her away. It seemed like you knew in your mind that you needed to laser and DD, but you got bored and ran in headfirst after a while. When you DD in midrange, stay sharp and get ready to bair her if she moves into your territory. If she somehow lags in your space, you're close enough to counterattack with dair to whatever. If she starts putting up shield expecting your approach (and maybe trying to nair oos), go for a grab or something. Jump over and bair from behind and begin pressure.
Overall, the match was pretty good, but there a few things you need to work on. Namely:
-not running in so often and learning to get hits in a different way.
-smart spacing near an edge to avoid Peach's upb but still be in range to react to her get-up options.
-more d.i. on her dash attack if she hits you while recovering. 0:35
-less nair and jabs when needed. Learn to balance spaced bairs, nairs, and dairs.
But this is all just really minor and specific information. You're already pretty good. I'm sorry if this isn't that kind of information you were looking for. Hope I helped.