Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Dynamism?]

Isn't high pressure quite viable against Jiggs?

Watch the Pound 3 finals and take note of all the times M2K went aggressive. Mango got *****... 3rd stock on Brinstar is very notable, several other cases on PS.

Same with Zhu vs HB at Genesis. Every time Fox went aggressive, Jiggs was messed up. Camping did well, but attacking with his obviously faster attacks (especially vertically when Jiggs gets grounded NOTE: Dair starting ***** in all cases), trading hits with Jiggs aerials, everything.

I think the risk vs reward of precise aggressive play needs to be looked at more. Dair/Shine APPROACH right after she wiffs an aerial or goes to land not far enough away. Which happens a fair amount so she can avoid the camp game that's inevitable.

Seriouslyyy....

Just my thoughts and observations. :\

 

[RaynEX]

I think camping provides the same results. Albeit with less risks, and more time involved. Precise aggressive play requires more reactive and on-the-go thinking. Most players would prefer to sit back and wait for lag as opposed to getting in there and forcing it out mid-range. Its viable, but grossly harder to apply at top level.

 

[TresChikon]

Defensive and aggressive against Jiggs is pretty much a win/win for Fox.

They all include spamming u-throw, u-air, bair, and lzrs and end up with Jiggs screaming off the top.

 

[Byron 1337]

^ Bait people. Think.about how you will punish.

Ty.

I'm trying to think up traps and whatnot. Smash mental aspects is hard

 

[RaynEX]

Defensive and aggressive against Jiggs is pretty much a win/win for Fox.

They all include spamming u-throw, u-air, bair, and lzrs and end up with Jiggs screaming off the top.

More shield pressure and shine techchases are involved in aggressive play. Total damage for nair->shine->chase->grab->uthrow->uair is almost 40%. If you do it twice they are at kill percent. On Yoshis, the second techchase grab will kill. Landing a shine on grounded Jiggs is way too good.

 

[TresChikon]

I like your sig Byron.

I'm trying to think up traps and whatnot

Lookie here, different movement tricks to trap your opponent.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=60918

More shield pressure and shine techchases are involved in aggressive play. Total damage for nair->shine->chase->grab->uthrow->uair is almost 40%. If you do it twice they are at kill percent. On Yoshis, the second techchase grab will kill.

I don't nair enough, but your description makes me want to.

a shine on grounded Jiggs is way too good.

Her slow tech is just begging to be chased.

 

[noodles]

Well id guess getting the shine would be better since your like guaranteed a tech chase opportunity and you getting that grab mostly depends on who your playing.

 

[TresChikon]

Yeah, I suppose abstract grabs aren't as reliable on good players as tekchased grab are. I forget about that sometimes.

The feeling of reading a tech is so amazing. It's what makes playing Melee worthwhile.

It's even better when you're Falcon.

 

[Little England]

While practicing in my room right now I found something fishy. CPU Peach forward B'd and I dtilted right as she hit me with it. When she hit me I did not move at ALL! Zero knockback and I don't think I gained any damage. My body didn't light on fire or anything. It just showed the explosion on Peach's bum and the usually animation she does when she hits her forward B.

I wonder if it was the dtilt or her stupid forward B that has some fishy properties...I hope its the dtilt.

 

[MarkLoo]

that sounds cool... so it's either that the dtilt has some invincibility frames or you clanked?

 

[TresChikon]

Maybe it parried? CapFal's raptor boost still shows the full animation if it gets parried or shielded. So maybe same concept with Peach. I dunno.

 

[Little England]

I thought a when you clank the animation of both attacks is cut off? Then again I've never seen a forward B clank, so maybe its different.

edit- TresChikon might have a point there. Now if only I could time a clank again lol

 

[TresChikon]

I just can't how the hitboxes could connect, Fox sweeps the floor while Peach is kind of in the air.

 

[Little England]

^^ And that's what lead me to believe there were some invincibility frames.

 

[SpaceFalcon]

D-tilt owns.

Once a match that is.

 

[RaynEX]

While practicing in my room right now I found something fishy. CPU Peach forward B'd and I dtilted right as she hit me with it. When she hit me I did not move at ALL! Zero knockback and I don't think I gained any damage. My body didn't light on fire or anything. It just showed the explosion on Peach's bum and the usually animation she does when she hits her forward B.

I wonder if it was the dtilt or her stupid forward B that has some fishy properties...I hope its the dtilt.

that sounds cool... so it's either that the dtilt has some invincibility frames or you clanked?

I thought a when you clank the animation of both attacks is cut off? Then again I've never seen a forward B clank, so maybe its different.

edit- TresChikon might have a point there. Now if only I could time a clank again lol

The moves clinked. The reason the forward B didn't stop mid-animation, was probably because it clinked around the time the move would have ended anyways. As for its hitbox, it's horizontal hitbox is crap, but it can hit crouching opponents. (The hitbox extends from her shoulder down to the ground once she's mid-air for the bum rush)

It makes sense that it would clink. Nothing special.

 

[Ryan-K]

im pretty sure dtilt is disjointed too

 

[Tomacawk]

Thanks Raynex. That match is kinda dated (it took > a month to be uploaded) but yeah that is definitely helpful.
also, I'm not grabbing because uthrow uair doesn't work
Raynex have you seen my falcon? do you think I'd be better off sticking with fox or falcon?

 

[Dynamism?]

I think camping provides the same results. Albeit with less risks, and more time involved. Precise aggressive play requires more reactive and on-the-go thinking. Most players would prefer to sit back and wait for lag as opposed to getting in there and forcing it out mid-range. Its viable, but grossly harder to apply at top level.

Most players prefer to sit back and wait for lag?
Harder to apply at a top level?
Those 2 things clash, don't they?

At a top level, wouldn't a Jiggs be able to NOT let any of those "lag" chances mix with her approach/wall? The top Jiggs players are finding more and more ways to get by the camp without punish, and it seems the only reason a top Fox can stay in the match is the aggressive parts when he needs to take a stock and goes for it.

Difficulty should mean nothing to you. You're one of the best, surely waveshining and shinebairing etc isn't hard. People are starting to shineuair now. Applying those with mindgames and precision, picking your options didn't come right away, it came with time.

Aggressive play is grossly harder, but reward will be there I'm sure. Reactive on the go thinking... that's like routine these days for top players ;D

 

[RaynEX]

Thanks Raynex. That match is kinda dated (it took > a month to be uploaded) but yeah that is definitely helpful.
also, I'm not grabbing because uthrow uair doesn't work
Raynex have you seen my falcon? do you think I'd be better off sticking with fox or falcon?

No, I haven't seen your Falcon in action yet. Uthrow->uair works on Peach. If she's hitting you before it comes out, you're either jumping too slow or uairing too late. If you start the uair right as you leave the ground, it eats whatever she throws out. Her nair doesn't have a good enough hitbox beneath her to compete with uair. Its reliable as a kill move if you can space/time it well consistently.

Most players prefer to sit back and wait for lag?
Harder to apply at a top level?
Those 2 things clash, don't they?

At a top level, wouldn't a Jiggs be able to NOT let any of those "lag" chances mix with her approach/wall? The top Jiggs players are finding more and more ways to get by the camp without punish, and it seems the only reason a top Fox can stay in the match is the aggressive parts when he needs to take a stock and goes for it.

Difficulty should mean nothing to you. You're one of the best, surely waveshining and shinebairing etc isn't hard. People are starting to shineuair now. Applying those with mindgames and precision, picking your options didn't come right away, it came with time.

Aggressive play is grossly harder, but reward will be there I'm sure. Reactive on the go thinking... that's like routine these days for top players ;D

My mistake, I worded it wrong. I meant to say that playing aggressively is grossly harder to apply at top level.

 

[Dynamism?]

I knew what you meant, just wanted to make sure I wasn't misreading something myself by expanding on the idea. :D

Do you HAVE to uair right as you leave the ground or can you jump fast enough to get the full uair on her?
(Is this at all %?)

 

[unknown522]

Jiggs is pretty easy to hit with u-throw -> u-air. Do it at any time, as long as you get the jump fast enough, it's all good. You can link b-air as well on her.

 

[SpaceFalcon]

Lol james you learning faaxx now?

 

[Dynamism?]

hahaha yeah roby he's super cute!!!! :D

does that work on peach too unknown?

 

[noodles]

I think raynex made a thread saying he tested DI and stuff and peach can nair/bair. I assume if you space stuff well you could hit with stuff. If in doubt just go opposite of their di and laser or bait something i guess.

 

[TresChikon]

I think you would trade with her nair unless you like super-duper-space with the very tip of your foot.

Waveshine-> Usmash is the bane of Peach.

 

[`DNS`]

How do you approach peach? :<

 

[Lovage]

dont rush in like a noob
peach is gay

 

[PK Webb]

I've been working on waveshine combos and i got a question. How in the blue blazes do you walk after a waveshine and still be able to waveshine again??????? I cant do it whenever i do i just get grabbed

 

[RaynEX]

Depends on who you're facing. If its like Falcon or Peach, you shouldn't be walking. Make your WDs longer so you end up right beside them after a shine. Walking works, but only for a split second. If you wait too long the hitstun from the shine dissipates.

 

[noodles]

also make sure they were grounded when the shine hit

 

[bolt.]

Okay 2 questions.

1. Does anyone have any tips on how to do the wall jump on the bottom of FoD?
SW does it in this video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62hBiQFDgbs
2. Are there any videos of anyone doing the cruel waveshine?

 

[SpaceFalcon]

Okay 2 questions.

1. Does anyone have any tips on how to do the wall jump on the bottom of FoD?
SW does it in this video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62hBiQFDgbs
2. Are there any videos of anyone doing the cruel waveshine?

Just drop down and jump towards the wall, and firefox I guess?

Also wth is cruel waveshine lol. You gotta use terms people know, not ones your friends came up with.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

to walljump on fod let go of edge, DI towards stage, jump, press away when you touch the stage.

congrats you just did a wall jump.

 

[bolt.]

<_< I know how to wall jump, but doing it on the bottom of FoD is hard and wondering if there was anything special I had to do.

Cruel waveshine is actually a term in the, fox movement tricks; all mindgames & flashy movements thread, The link can be found in the ultimate fox thread. Trust me, I don't even know the guy who made it =D.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

too lazy to go find your random vague term. still don't know what it means. QED you don't get your problem solved.

 

[bolt.]

Its when you waveshine past a character and trap them in the middle of waveshines by to there left then to right every time. That wave you can keep it going forever. It only works on a couple characters though, and it seems really hard to do. Thats why I wanted to see a video of it.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

That sounds ******** and useless. Like more useless than most of fox's bag of trixies.

 

[bolt.]

I didn't ask how it sounded. I asked for a video.

 

[SpaceFalcon]

That's a really fun trick.

Practice on a standing falcon or peach..etc on FD. Run to them and shine as close as you can without making them go behind you, not sure if you have to do full wavedash (full waveshine) but I do anyway.

You can also turn around during the waveshine and grab them, lol.