Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[PK Webb]

How Do you up smash and shine OoS

 

[Tero.]

How Do you up smash and shine OoS

Jump Cancel (jump and immediately input an Usmash or shine before you leave the ground).
You have to be relatively fast though.

 

[MarsFool!]

For shine out of shield I shield with L, Hit up on the cstick(jump cancel the shield) and and slide my thumb to the button while simultaneously pressing down on the control stick.

Upsmash is pretty easy tbh, just remember to let go of the shield then usmash.

 

[Tomacawk]

no
to usmash out of shield you just hit up on the cstick and control stick
dont let go of shield, it'll be a lot laggier

 

[MarsFool!]

Thought about that after the fact but I had already been corrected :D

 

[Stratford]

If you want the shine to be jc'd you have to do it really quickly after the jump, same timing as for multishining. But you can also just jump oos and shine slightly off the ground then cancel the shine with your double jump, which will be useful sometimes too.

And for usmash oos I like up on both sticks, cstick just slightly later.

 

[Tomacawk]

jump cancelling a shine oos is really ****ing hard. it's better to just not shine oos on FD and just shine slightly in the air oos ->dj waveland on a platform unless you are able to actually jc it. then wd out and you're a ****ing pimp

 

[DtJ Jungle]

It is really hard, but if it's what all the cool kids are doing, why not learn it? It has it's uses.

 

[Tomacawk]

junglefever do you live in springfield?

 

[DtJ Jungle]

No, I was living with my girlfriend for the summer when we weren't in school, I'm back in Michigan now.

 

[Tomacawk]

are you coming back ever? you should hit me up if you do

 

[ChivalRuse]

It's not that hard, guys. Just c-stick up and immediately hit b - like FluxWolf explains. ^_^

What's hard is doing it in a match. >_>

 

[DtJ Jungle]

Yah for sure, though I don't forsee coming back in the near future :/

 

[TresChikon]

JCing the shine OoS isn't absolutely necessary, it's just for breaking pressure against like Falco. Unless you're so cool you can just waveshine combo straight out of your shield.

 

[MarsFool!]

I dont think so. Its more of a counter attack than a combo breaker. You hit my shield so I can punish you. Im not sure why you wouldnt jc it, kind of pointless to do it all then. Especially of they tech it and youre still in that akward I didnt jc my shine position >_>


Go watch rice vs eggm, its Falco number 1 and kind of old number 2 but lots of shine out of shield and pillar shine combos out of shield.

 

[TresChikon]

Oh no, I meant JC as in shining before leaving the ground. Shine @ < 4 frames. I can't do that consistently, so I do it mid-air (as in non-JC,) shine @ > 4 frames.

Of course you gotta jump out of it. Dang terminology ambiguities.

 

[Milos]

jump cancel, as in cancel your jump with a shine

Jump cancel shining is when you repeatedly cancel jumps with shines

a common terminology error, and one that i make frequently

shine oos isnt that hard what i do is just shield and then slide from y to b like i would with multishines

 

[TresChikon]

Yah, so we're all right.

Interweb rage averted.

 

[iamthemicrowave]

say you have a fox standing right in front of you, can you shine upsmash them(as fox)? I can only shine -> upsmash if I run at them first so the momentum like carries fox forward into the upsmash. Maybe I am not doing it fast enough?

I noticed Tang shine upsmashes Zhu in place in the wombo combo, but I thought it might be different because A. Zhu is moving towards Tang and B. Zhu is in the air when he is shined, so he has a different trajectory than being shined on the ground.

 

[EC_Joey]

say you have a fox standing right in front of you, can you shine upsmash them(as fox)? I can only shine -> upsmash if I run at them first so the momentum like carries fox forward into the upsmash. Maybe I am not doing it fast enough?

I noticed Tang shine upsmashes Zhu in place in the wombo combo, but I thought it might be different because A. Zhu is moving towards Tang and B. Zhu is in the air when he is shined, so he has a different trajectory than being shined on the ground.

If he's in front of you on the ground you can't shine -> upsmash. You need the momentum from the dash to hit with the upsmash.

 

[TresChikon]

I had a thread on it somewhere, but generally you need to hit them with the top of your shine.

It works on the whole cast, I usually do it when they poorly DI a nair, so the top of the shine get's them and shine->usmash works out.

Otherwise running shine-usmash works as well, i'm just not sure if it can catch luigi or IC's but you can get spacies with it.

 

[PK Webb]

Thanks every1 i think i got alot of good answers i'll try it after im doin playin tekken 6

 

[Brookman]

I'm fairly positive you can shine > wavedash > jc up smash against characters that fall down. It's been a while since I was doing it/having it done to me though. . . can anyone verify this?

 

[MarsFool!]

Cant get it to work below 60 and they have to miss the tech. I cant tech skill right now perhaps.

ill pop in my AR and have a look @_@

Edit: Running shineupsmash works of course, but I think that this guy was only asking about standing still.

 

[Tomacawk]

yes you can, but it's iffy. The timing is awkward because they're invincible for a tiny bit while on the ground. The way I get it to work is shine->waveshine towards them->running usmash
It works a lot more often for me when my back is to them when I shine for some reason
but if they get up attack/roll off the ground asap it won't work, they need to hesitate a tiny bit
so just go with thunders unless they're high % and you're looking to kill

 

[MarsFool!]

If they have to miss the tech, its not a combo >_>

 

[EC_Joey]

If they have to miss the tech, its not a combo >_>

I don't think anyone said it was a combo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDS29gYEsaM
At 0:50 Raynex does a upthrow -> waveshine -> JC upsmash, but the shine hits the CPU in the air. I can't recall seeing anyone do a waveshine -> JC upsmash on a standing target that falls down from shine.

 

[Stratford]

Yes you can waveshine usmash spacies.

 

[MarsFool!]

Not from standing still.

@Variola why would kneegalize ask if it was possible to do then? Its kind of irrelevant to say that it can be done if youre opponent misses a tech. Thats like telling someone that if they grab someone throw them then grab them again then it works, which it doesnt.

 

[EC_Joey]

Not from standing still.

@Variola why would kneegalize ask if it was possible to do then? Its kind of irrelevant to say that it can be done if youre opponent misses a tech. Thats like telling someone that if they grab someone throw them then grab them again then it works, which it doesnt.

Very few people tech shines with high consistency, so it's a viable option if your opponent doesn't expect the shine. Colbol does it a bunch of times in his more recent matches.

Also, Melee isn't all about combos.

 

[Brookman]

how often do your opponents tech your shine? I don't see it happen very often in my experience.

 

[Silent Wolf]

it happens when they try to l cancel and you shine them
every time a falco tries to aerial and i shield and shine out of it then accidentally tech it

 

[MarsFool!]

No one said melee was about combos. Someone said it could be done, I said it had a hole and everyone lost their miind.

 

[EC_Joey]

No one said melee was about combos. Someone said it could be done, I said it had a hole and everyone lost their miind.

@Variola why would kneegalize ask if it was possible to do then? Its kind of irrelevant to say that it can be done if youre opponent misses a tech.

It's not irrelevant to consider a course of action if your opponent misses a tech, especially if the possibility of a missed tech is high. You're kind of implying that you shouldn't think about what can be done if your opponent makes a mistake.

Also, most moves that chain together have holes in them. Most combos are DI dependent, so you could say that those all have holes. All we're doing is considering options that are effective and are possible to pull off.

 

[XIF]

It's not irrelevant to consider a course of action if your opponent misses a tech, especially if the possibility of a missed tech is high. You're kind of implying that you shouldn't think about what can be done if your opponent makes a mistake.

Also, most moves that chain together have holes in them. Most combos are DI dependent, so you could say that those all have holes. All we're doing is considering options that are effective and are possible to pull off.

ahahahahahahahahaha!

oh wait you were serious?

 

[EC_Joey]

ahahahahahahahahaha!

oh wait you were serious?

 

[RaynEX]

You can drillshine usmash Fox/Falco. The usmash hits while they are sliding on the ground. I've tested it a couple of times and have found it to be primarily d.i. dependent. Simply stated, any kind of half-*** away influence will thwart it.

So: If you get a running start and dair -> shine -> usmash, it will connect if you ground them. Remember d.i. may cause this to fail horrendously and potentially leave you open to a counter-attack.

If you are coming from above with the dair (or other aerial of choice), and land on your opponent with no clear forward momentum, your wavedash has to be quick and long in order to keep up with your sliding adversary. I'd suggest you to simply give chase and grab or usmash after you have a better idea of where your opponent is headed - but the choice is yours.

If you are standing directly in front of a Fox/Falco, (after having teched in place for example) you will need to perform a near perfect WD. I tried it a few times just now, with the cpu on both away and neutral d.i. (survival/towards d.i. would obviously land you the hit). They have to either neutral d.i. or d.i. into you for the usmash to hit, in addition to the other wavedash condition I mentioned.

Try standing in front of opponent Fox/Falco and shining -> wd -> usmash. I'll be pleasantly surprised if any of you can get it on your very first try. After a while you'll see that it is possible.

This isn't very useful or practical, but I saw you guys talking about it and decided to provide some random input.

edit: and before I forget, you have to JC every usmash. You probably won't be able to hit your opponent otherwise. This was tested on Fox/Falco, so I'm not sure if the same principles would apply to other characters that fall from the shine.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

RaynEX, I actually asked magus about drill->usmash recently. He told me it does combo, but you have to be close next to them. Here i'll quote his reply to me:

with fox, why does drill grab work (hits 7-8) but drill usmash doesnt (hits 7-17)? is it because people generally leave their shield up after the dair hits and simply get grabbed or does the hitbox of usmash have something funky where its not getting contact for another frame or 2?

The u-smash will hit them on 7 if you're really close, or on 8 if you're not or they are in an awkward position during the d-air stun animation. Yeah, grab works better for that reason but mostly because attacks are easily avoided on frame 1 with a shield while avoiding grabs takes longer and/or needs to be timed.

D-air u-smash actually can combo very light characters though, but it also depends on when the last hit connects before landing. A hit from Fox's d-air on a grounded opponent when l-cancelled and hitting immediately before landing gives Fox a 5-8 frame advantage depending on weight (ex. Samus=5, Jiggs=8). Since there's time between the hits though you won't always land the frame after one connects, and so the time you land during the d-air can subtract 0-2 from your advantage, making it... kind of usable on Jiggs/G&W/Pichu with really good timing.

For the d-air grab, if they would try to avoid it with a c-stick buffer sidestep they'll be safe on frame 3 (4 for CF/Zelda and 5 for Bowser), compared to frame 1 for blocking an u-smash. If they manually time the dodge it can be 1 faster than that.

For someone like Samus' weight and above they would be able to buffer a sidestep to avoid it if the last d-air hitbox connects 1-2 early (3/4 advantage from max 5). Jiggs weight and lower would be unable to sidestep the grab regardless of when the last hit connects as long as they're within range and the grab is timed right.

 

[MarsFool!]

If you are standing directly in front of a Fox/Falco, (after having teched in place for example) you will need to perform a near perfect WD. I tried it a few times just now, with the cpu on both away and neutral d.i. (survival/towards d.i. would obviously land you the hit). They have to either neutral d.i. or d.i. into you for the usmash to hit, in addition to the other wavedash condition I mentioned.

I do it every time, its no harder than a thunders to upsmash. But the debate was did it connect. Yes, if they miss the tech. I even tried to do it with AR so my data is frame perfect, it just doesnt work. Im going to make this simpler on everyone and give this as an example. If he had asked could you shine fsmash with fox would anyone say yes? Technically yeah you can do anything to them if they miss the tech thats what my point is. This has nothing to do if you can punish them afterwards because the obvious answer is yes. And if you guys have never seen anyone consistently tech the shine, play colin, chops, keepspeedn, shiz, etc etc etc

 

[ChivalRuse]

Shine is techable. >_>