Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[CanISmash]

shine is a 1 frame move what is with this nonsense. people tech it by accident.

i want to see vids of someone showing off tech skill by teching 10 shines in a row.

screw it just show a vid where someone techs 1/4th of every shines in a spacie battle.

 

[Meneks]

shine is a 1 frame move what is with this nonsense. people tech it by accident.

i want to see vids of someone showing off tech skill by teching 10 shines in a row.

screw it just show a vid where someone techs 1/4th of every shines in a spacie battle.

Does ledgeteching shines could?
Cause i've teched shines many times in that case..
And i've teched shines on flat ground(intentionally)

 

[CanISmash]

ledge tech is my middle name.

lol.

im talking about on the ground.

 

[MarsFool!]

So youre telling me I could shine jab resest you across FD at 0? Wow, I dont know how else to say this, but thats bad. Its seriously odd to me that players in your area dont have space animal fights where you see this a lot.

 

[ChivalRuse]

shine is a 1 frame move what is with this nonsense. people tech it by accident.

i want to see vids of someone showing off tech skill by teching 10 shines in a row.

screw it just show a vid where someone techs 1/4th of every shines in a spacie battle.

I was kiddin.

Also, wall teching is loleasy.

 

[MarsFool!]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GebNB8eLjgI

They do it all over the place. Call all of them accidents if you want.

 

[XIF]

I can't believe I'm about to explain to people something about fox when I don't play the character...

OK, This is a term used in other fighting games but for some reason doesn't make it to smash, and it's called option select. Option selecting is when you do one thing to cover multiple options. In SF3 Third Strike, there's a very simple option select while your opponent is pressuring you, and all you have to do is hold down back and press light punch and light kick. If they keep hitting you, you'll block, but if they try to mix in a grab, you'll throw break, putting the both of you back to neutral. You can cover multiple options without having to necessarily read your opponent.

Going back to smash, this is exactly what happens in Fox vs Fox/Falco matches. They don't necessarily read when the shine is coming, but there are certain situations where there's no real reason to not press L or R in anticipation for the tech. Any fox or falco that lands a dair is either going to shine or grab. Grab is a combo to begin with anyway so unless your opponent is missing it consistently, there's no reason to do anything about it, but if they try to shine, you'll be pressing L or R anyway and tech it. I personally also hold my control stick away from them to DI the up throw or get further away with my tech roll (stage positioning of course may change my approach).

When you see good players with good DI, it's generally not 100% reaction or 100% prediction. Sometimes you're in situations where there's nothing better to do with the control stick than to hold up because you're in the middle of an attack or whatever. I know personally in Peach ditto's whenever I down smash, I press down on the c stick and hold up on the control stick every time. I almost never ever ever eat more than one hit of the d smash, unless I'm at zero or I foolishly mashed c-stick down and I end up c-sticking my DI into another hit.

As for when I play Fox or Falco against Fox, it's not uncommon for me to personally tech about half the shines thrown out during the game.

As for the specific argument of whether it's a combo or not, I'll say that as a peach player, I'll often times get 2 or 3 d smashes in a row vs space animals. Now it's a combo in that once they missed the tech they can't do anything about it. But I mean really, if you miss the tech you only have yourself to blame for eating another 30%.

Good luck playing you're god-like character with a one frame move.

PS: Just because MarsFool! doesn't have a purple name doesn't mean you shouldn't listen to him.

 

[Ryzol_]

Some noob questions sorry if these have been asked. I didn't see them explicitly mentioned in the guide. When you sh drill, should you always fastfall it? Also do you want to get the drill hitbox to come out on your way up from a sh, or on your way down (aka get drill out as fast as possible, or wait a little)?

Can characters that are not knocked over by shine, wall tech shine when it hits them offstage into a wall?

 

[DtJ Jungle]

You shoudl ff it. I usually do my dairs ASAP. I don't know what good it would do to wait :/

I'm pretty sure characters that aren't knocked over cannot wallt ech the shine.

I'm a noob though so I don't know anything.

 

[AnDaLe]

well I always FF it if SH. mainly u want all the hit boxes to hit them or their shield and the last hit of ur dair to be about the same time as you land (for me its that way). ASsuming that u L Canceled the dair, u can continue with a shine to dril/nair again (for shield pressure) or grab to Uair.

And certain characters can walltech the shine i think, Like falco and fox that get knocked over. Also, i'm assuming u got them on the ledge of something and u dair to shine to dair etc., they can smash DI out of the " wall - infinite".

 

[XIF]

Just as with any attack, if you go into your tumble animation (as in if you landed on the ground, you'd be on your stomach or back) you can ledge tech it. This is why it's arguably worse to get dair'd off the stage at a really low percent as opposed to higher percents against Falco's. After like 30 or 40 percent you can tech it, but before that you cannot.

The characters that can tech shine are: Fox, Falco, Kirby, Young Link, Pichu, Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Mewtwo, Game and Watch, and Roy.

Most characters don't get knocked over regardless if they crouch cancel the shine. With ledge teching, since you cannot crouch cancel, you cannot avoid getting knocked over, and can always ledge tech.

 

[TresChikon]

Nope, anyone who CC's will just slide and not fall from the shine.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=67333

Yeah, moves that don't let you tumble are pretty beast for edgeguards and gimps. Ganon's reverse u-air is practically untechable by anyone till 150+, which is pretty sexy, especially versus everyone.

 

[XIF]

Nope, anyone who CC's will just slide and not fall from the shine.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=67333

Yeah, moves that don't let you tumble are pretty beast for edgeguards and gimps. Ganon's reverse u-air is practically untechable by anyone till 150+, which is pretty sexy, especially versus everyone.

why am I just not surprised?

Fox McCloud can just do anything <_<

 

[Tomacawk]

yeah XIF fox is by far the most broken character
just look at fox's placing historically
he wins every tournament

 

[XIF]

yeah XIF fox is by far the most broken character
just look at fox's placing historically
he wins every tournament

You know, I said that half jokingly (who the heck cares if you can CC shines and they don't fall over?) but in all honesty, Fox is easily the best character. If you want to believe otherwise then whatever, but you'll only hurt yourself as a Fox player if you don't understand the raw power you hold.

I just came here because MarsFool! was talking to me about this discussion on combos and teching shines, and I felt the need to clear up some obviously misinformed notions about the subject. I'm just trying to be helpful here, but once again I wonder why I bother...

 

[Tomacawk]

don't go all emo on me XIF.
your post was really useful. I don't think fox is the best character. he definitely is among the best and should be in the argument for the best, but as far as performance he is most certainly not the best.
it's just annoying that all things you do, even if they're very helpful, well-thought and articulate posts, end with some sort of john about fox.
and you can't really come onto the fox boards spewing anti fox propaganda and expect nobody to be like "hey, no"
edit-that's not to say I don't appreciate your post, and I'm not trying to disrespect you. obviously you are a more credible source on fox than I am
just sayin', no johns, essentially
and if you were jokin' my bad

 

[XIF]

don't go all emo on me XIF.
your post was really useful. I don't think fox is the best character. he definitely is among the best and should be in the argument for the best, but as far as performance he is most certainly not the best.
it's just annoying that all things you do, even if they're very helpful, well-thought and articulate posts, end with some sort of john about fox.
and you can't really come onto the fox boards spewing anti fox propaganda and expect nobody to be like "hey, no"
edit-that's not to say I don't appreciate your post, and I'm not trying to disrespect you. obviously you are a more credible source on fox than I am
just sayin', no johns, essentially
and if you were jokin' my bad

Everything else I understand (although I wasn't johning but whatever), but I don't understand that.

I mean OK, you ask any MvC2 player about storm or Sentinel, they're going to straight up tell you that they are two seriously mega busted characters that are way too good, but they'll play them precisely because of that. They understand how good their character is and they like to abuse the hell out of it, i've never understood why smash players don't have the same mindset.

You can ask me about peach and I'll talk about how busted her edge guarding is, and how stupidly good her down smash is. I understand the broken parts and the flaws.

Basically what I want to say is "Congratulations, you picked the right character, now be proud and abuse the hell out of Fox, and don't be afraid to admit how good he really is."

 

[Lovage]

yeah XIF fox is by far the most broken character
just look at fox's placing historically
he wins every tournament

is this even a serious post? fox IS the best character in the game overall, if you disagree you don't know much about melee

 

[MarsFool!]

You shoudl ff it. I usually do my dairs ASAP. I don't know what good it would do to wait :/

I'm pretty sure characters that aren't knocked over cannot wall tech the shine.

I'm a noob though so I don't know anything.

Only reason I would wait to DAIr is if I know Im going to hit their shield. In which case, I would hold off until the last second that I can still get the Dair to start, hit their shield, then land behind them. I would dair as opposed to Nair their shield, since its multiple hits. Otherwise why not get an easy 15 damage? <--lol

Everything else I understand (although I wasn't johning but whatever), but I don't understand that.

I mean OK, you ask any MvC2 player about storm or Sentinel, they're going to straight up tell you that they are two seriously mega busted characters that are way too good, but they'll play them precisely because of that. They understand how good their character is and they like to abuse the hell out of it, i've never understood why smash players don't have the same mindset.

You can ask me about peach and I'll talk about how busted her edge guarding is, and how stupidly good her down smash is. I understand the broken parts and the flaws.

Basically what I want to say is "Congratulations, you picked the right character, now be proud and abuse the hell out of Fox, and don't be afraid to admit how good he really is."

QFTQFTQFTQFTQFT
I think I read somewhere about playing to win. Maybe Im just crazy

is this even a serious post? fox IS the best character in the game overall, if you disagree you don't know much about melee

In all honesty, it looked like trolling when I read that, so I didnt jump on it. *dodges infraction*

 

[Tomacawk]

call the cops somebody doesn't think fox is the best
fox clearly has the potential to be the best but through application nobody has totally dominated with him like people should
which is why I don't think he's the best
he should always be in the argument for the best though
also I don't troll unless it's anonymous

 

[Ryzol_]

How do you waveshine backwards without turning around? By waveshine backwards I mean you shine then WD the opposite direction that you are facing? I've done it once or twice without turning around, but I don't understand what I'm doing.

 

[Tero.]

How do you waveshine backwards without turning around? By waveshine backwards I mean you shine then WD the opposite direction that you are facing? I've done it once or twice without turning around, but I don't understand what I'm doing.

Try to reset the control stick to neutral position after doing the shine, then do a normal wavedash back.

 

[Silent Wolf]

How do you waveshine backwards without turning around? By waveshine backwards I mean you shine then WD the opposite direction that you are facing? I've done it once or twice without turning around, but I don't understand what I'm doing.

just make sure you jump out of the shine before you turn around

 

[ChivalRuse]

Learn to wavedash oos, Tero. Then do the same input except treat the b and down inputs as the L (or R) button. Basically, you have to jump before you hold diagonally down left or down right for the wavedash, or else you're hitting it during the shine and turning around in it.

 

[Tero.]

Learn to wavedash oos, Tero. Then do the same input except treat the b and down inputs as the L (or R) button. Basically, you have to jump before you hold diagonally down left or down right for the wavedash, or else you're hitting it during the shine and turning around in it.

Oh I don't have to learn that, I can do it pretty well.
In fact I can even waveshine oos.
But thanks nevertheless for explaining it.

 

[Tomacawk]

yeah
basically, shine, then jump, then wavedash backwards. I like to slam the control stick to the side almost as I jump, I can't really do it in a precise quiet manner
doesn't have to be pretty just make it work

 

[Stratford]

If you do happen to turn around in the shine, there's a few frames of lag before you can jump, which is a source of much failure if one tries to jump during these frames.

 

[`DNS`]

just make sure you jump out of the shine before you turn around

that's exactly what i was going to say

 

[Sizzle]

How can you tell if you are keeping invincibility while ledge dropping?

 

[brawlpro]

keep invincibility while ledge hopping?

 

[TresChikon]

The flashing I suppose.

 

[Sizzle]

keep invincibility while ledge hopping?

Yeah thats what I meant.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

if they hit you, you weren't invincible. If they didn't, you were.

Care to use a stock up to see if you did it right?

 

[noodles]

Know frame data/practice alot. Getting back on the stage is too crucial to not be well at.

 

[Meneks]

I dont think its necessary to know frame data to be halfway decent...
wtf are frames(not serious)

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I think its absolutely necessary to know frame data to be halfway decent....
wtf are frames(not serious)

 

[noodles]

Like, know how long your invincible for and come up with ways to get back on safely. Or just watch good players recover and see why it worked. I just steal stuff XD.

 

[SwiftBass]

**** noodles you have no idea what your talking about

 

[XIF]

o_O

how is knowing frame data anything but beneficial?

For instance, I know from frame data that Fox can retain infinite invincibility from ledge canceled up B's.

Or that Up B out of shield with bowser comes out in 4 frames. Which including shield shield stun, l-cancel time, and the fact that shine comes out in 1 frame, I now know that as bowser I cannot up B out of shield reliably against Fox.

I don't even understand the people of this website anymore.

 

[Tomacawk]

I think he means that you don't need to know the raw numbers, you just need to know what works and what doesn't
for instance, I'm falco. I don't know how much shield stun my shine or dair has, but I know that if I do it on shield and do not dair too quickly after my shine and do not wait too long to jump out of my shine, it's safe
I can also not know how many frames it takes to have fox jump but still know how to waveshine.
that being said I think you can be good without frame data but you probably can't be great without it