Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[CanISmash]

you can know through trial and error and understand things....

remembering numbers is stupid.. it just makes you play theory smash.

 

[TresChikon]

What are you talking about? Cruel Waveshining to 999% is totally legit.

 

[XIF]

you can know through trial and error and understand things....

remembering numbers is stupid.. it just makes you play theory smash.

If that's the entirety of your skill and the way you play the game, sure it's not gonna be overly helpful, but it's by no means "stupid."

It's not even so much as remembering the raw numbers, we all know shine is the fastest move in the game, jabs are pretty quick, tilts are decent, a lot of smashes are slow. But if you don't understand that in a d smash war between zelda and Peach, Zelda will win, then you might run into some issues with the matchup. The numbers give you a concrete way of understanding what beats what, and if you're just going by relative speeds, you're still applying knowledge of frame data.

There's no reason not to know your frames.

 

[Stratford]

So I just discovered that you can dodge low Falco lasers by upsmashing over them.

Useful? Perhaps not. Amusing? Absolutely.

 

[L__]

I just discovered that you can dodge low Falco lasers by upsmashing over them.


Thank you.

 

[Tomacawk]

There's no reason not to know your frames.

theres not reason not toread this pots

 

[MarsFool!]

So I just discovered that you can dodge low Falco lasers by upsmashing over them.

Useful? Perhaps not. Amusing? Absolutely.

Only foxes head is invincible. Plus it doesnt seem like a good idea since he'll probably just shoot another one >_>;

Lol @ Falcos that approach too close with lasers though.

 

[noodles]

I don't even understand the people of this website anymore.

calm yo nuts. I was on his account and i couldnt find a way to +1 his post count so i posted that >_>

 

[Meneks]

you can know through trial and error and understand things....

remembering numbers is stupid.. it just makes you play theory smash.

I agree...
But knowing the numbers isn't stupid..
It just means you have alot of time on your hands..

 

[DtJ Jungle]

So..last night in fox dittos
i nair waveshine grabbed the other fox

he didn't cc

i think raynex has explained this before, but i don't remember what/why thats possible

anyone?

 

[Ndot]

I waveshined a Fox like two to three times just like how it happens to Peach and Falcon. So what happened? lol

 

[L__]

@Ndot: The other Fox probably crouch cancelled.

@Junglefever: I have no idea.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

It was really bizarre

RAYNEX

hopefully he name searches

 

[ChivalRuse]

Me and DOSV were talking about this recently, Jungle. Apparently, if you do it fast enough, you can grab Fox out of a shine on the ground. I, however, think that this only works on computers.

Maybe his stun got ledgecancelled and you grabbed him in the air? Lol.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

It was on the middle of pokemon stadium, there wasnt anything to ledge cancel.

How can something only work on computers? lol. If you mean the way they DI, I might have caught my friend in ****ty DI after the nair or something.

 

[ZoSo]

You can very rarely grab missed techs with a dash grab, but I don't know the how or why.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Knowing the numbers is definitely NOT bad.

After you play the game enough and you know that say, fox's nair takes 4 frames to come out. You might not be able to count each one of those frames, but you know how long that is from experience.

Then when you need to learn something new, say you have to wait 3 frames between a button press, you know that its slightly faster than fox's nair. Your eyes might not know what a frame is, but your brain and your fingers both know and you can use it to your advantage.

Also, if you don't know what frame it is on, you can simply change the timing by one frame each time. I did this when learning samus' uair platform cancel. I had no idea where i was supposed to do it, but I just changed the timing up by 1 frame each time until i got it, then i had to work that frame timing into my muscle memory.

 

[Meneks]

Knowing the numbers is definitely NOT bad.

After you play the game enough and you know that say, fox's nair takes 4 frames to come out. You might not be able to count each one of those frames, but you know how long that is from experience.

Then when you need to learn something new, say you have to wait 3 frames between a button press, you know that its slightly faster than fox's nair. Your eyes might not know what a frame is, but your brain and your fingers both know and you can use it to your advantage.

Also, if you don't know what frame it is on, you can simply change the timing by one frame each time. I did this when learning samus' uair platform cancel. I had no idea where i was supposed to do it, but I just changed the timing up by 1 frame each time until i got it, then i had to work that frame timing into my muscle memory.

Knowing frame data can help you and its probably better to know it...
but i mean you can do the same **** in trial and error and just good ole practice..
I can do some pretty fast/technical **** with fox and i dont know **** about frames and its numbers

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Yes but numbers help *me* learn a new technique fairly fast (~5 min) so that i'm not randomly guessing until i can get it right 20 times in a row.

How I learn a new technique:
1. slow it down so i know the button sequence (ei, downb left up right(cstick))
2. add in the (general) numeric timings (downb (wait 2) left (4) up (1) rightcstick)
3. practice using the timings

 

[Tomacawk]

zoso is right. waveshine->dash grab will grab somebody off of the ground
not sure why it happens either, and raynex did indeed explain that awhile back

 

[Meneks]

Yes but numbers help *me* learn a new technique fairly fast (~5 min) so that i'm not randomly guessing until i can get it right 20 times in a row.

How I learn a new technique:
1. slow it down so i know the button sequence (ei, downb left up right(cstick))
2. add in the (general) numeric timings (downb (wait 2) left (4) up (1) rightcstick)
3. practice using the timings

If your randomly guessing you probably don't have any experience with anything similiar to the technique to begin with..

Numbers can help but the help is limited..
trial and error through application is what helps you the most.

I think its absolutely necessary to know frame data to be halfway decent....

Yes but numbers help *me*

Are you indicating that only a few can be halfway decent?
I don't know frame data so numbers aren't helping me at all.. So does that make me limited and my skills as a player won't increase simply because i don't know fox's frame data?
No, it doesn't

Cause if that were the case I probably wouldn't be able to do much of anything let alone beat other people..

 

[noodles]

I did that dash grab thing on a comp a week ago

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

the middle quote of mine was a joke post.

idk how you learn a technique, all i know is how i do it.

 

[Tomacawk]

probably spent too much time arguing about frames =\
so I got a question for high level foxes. what are the positives/drawbacks to shine->turn->wd->utilt->dj uair on falcon/peach? Do you think this is a legit kill string, or would it be better to usmash?

 

[Ndot]

That combo sounds legit enough, its almost like the Champ combo. If you're fast enough to turn around and utilt and follow up with uair, by all means, go for it. However, usmash will always be more reliable than that combo string. Because the utilt can be DI'd to the sides making it harder for you to aim your uair, so you might miss, and uair can also be smash DI'd out of. Usmash is better for reliability, but for coolness, use your combo. :D

 

[DtJ Jungle]

It's not htat hard to turn around, the problem becomes the thing about DI'ing that shiz.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Flashy def. Probably not as reliable as upsmash or grab. But it would be funny as anything to kill like a Peach or Zelda off the top with the utilt. >_>

 

[CanISmash]

Knowing the numbers is definitely NOT bad.

After you play the game enough and you know that say, fox's nair takes 4 frames to come out. You might not be able to count each one of those frames, but you know how long that is from experience.

Then when you need to learn something new, say you have to wait 3 frames between a button press, you know that its slightly faster than fox's nair. Your eyes might not know what a frame is, but your brain and your fingers both know and you can use it to your advantage.

Also, if you don't know what frame it is on, you can simply change the timing by one frame each time. I did this when learning samus' uair platform cancel. I had no idea where i was supposed to do it, but I just changed the timing up by 1 frame each time until i got it, then i had to work that frame timing into my muscle memory.

i am not following 1 bit.

maybe i suck. maybe i'm naive. but i feel there's too many things going on in a smash game to sit there and "count numbers" I dont have to count falcos pillar to know im not suppose to be up-smashing oos. and maybe opt for trying to shine oos. timing a grab or just getting away.

i feel like all this does it makes people play theory smash, because everything isn't how it is on paper. everybody isn't playing frame perfect... iono man.

 

[Tomacawk]

okay well since I've been playing falcon>fox I've been losing some skill and revamping my style. and apparently I can't short hop anymore but my tech skill is still fine
so anyway, what do you guys think of my fox
vs sheik
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9n0c_fazocg
vs marf
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03NV_d_i1_A
I'm trying to create a style of mild laser camping, intimidating tech skill, and then slow, precise mindgames once people adjust to waveshi tting aggression and what not

 

[TresChikon]

You seem a bit too distracted by fancy stuff and it's interfering with your flow, making all of your maneuvers really predictable. Your opponents just sucks too much to catch on to what you're doing and punish.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I lol'ed when you randomly started waveshining and then fsmashed him. Hahaha.

 

[Tomacawk]

chivalruse get on aim!

 

[Tero.]

So..last night in fox dittos
i nair waveshine grabbed the other fox

he didn't cc

i think raynex has explained this before, but i don't remember what/why thats possible

anyone?

This works if you Dash Grab after the waveshine.
The grab box of the dash grab goes slightly down (like Marth can dash grab a crouching puff, but can't grab her with JC grab).
It doesn't work if your opponent inputs a roll or get-up attack because he'll gain invincibilty frames.

 

[CanISmash]

I lol'ed when you randomly started waveshining and then fsmashed him. Hahaha.

this. lmao.

 

[RaynEX]

You don't have to dash grab to pick up spacies after a waveshine knockdown. If anyone is still interested, watch my pmp vid. I do it 3-4 times with a JCed grab.

I'll elaborate on the conditions of getting that specific grab setup to work - in a bit. hwing.

 

[voorhese]

its actually not even to hard, the hardest part is to get a long wavedash out of the shine, and then just dash and jc a grab

 

[XIF]

If Fox or Falco DI up and towards you after getting shined, they'll end up in the air and wont bounce immediately on the ground, meaning you can actually get away with alot.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Just u-throw shine u-smash u-throw u-throw nair jab u-throw u-tilt nair shine u-smash.

God you people are so stupid.

 

[Snowmanthatknows]

Just u-throw shine u-smash u-throw u-throw nair jab u-throw u-tilt nair shine u-smash.

God you people are so stupid.

Ahahaha.

It's all you need.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Fox *****. It's very violent, and all.

Marth just glides. Swoosh, swoosh.