Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Grmo]

^ Exactly. Strategic counter-picking is overrated. It's all about what you'll play your best on, not what you'll have the best matchup on. People make this mistake in tournaments all the time and switch characters to try and counter someone else, then end up getting *****. I know a fair few people who switch between all the top tiers, and it really backfires. One time, I tried going Marth against someone's Fox on FD, and got 4 stocked, losing the set. Moral of the story: stick to what you're best at, not what the game is best at...which I would argue is randomly fcking people with matchups.

haaaaaags

 

[soap]

^ Exactly. Strategic counter-picking is overrated. It's all about what you'll play your best on, not what you'll have the best matchup on. People make this mistake in tournaments all the time and switch characters to try and counter someone else, then end up getting *****. I know a fair few people who switch between all the top tiers, and it really backfires. One time, I tried going Marth against someone's Fox on FD, and got 4 stocked, losing the set. Moral of the story: stick to what you're best at, not what the game is best at...which I would argue is randomly fcking people with matchups.

haaaaaags

i went marth against someones falco on FD and got 4 stocked...

i went back to sheik and won the set thankfully.

I also switched to marth one time against this zelda player on Fod, and got 4 stocked...

i think my marth just blows is the moral of the story

 

[Grmo]

You should come to Starfurry 4 is the moral of the story

 

[Miggz]

i went marth against someones falco on FD and got 4 stocked...

i went back to sheik and won the set thankfully.

I also switched to marth one time against this zelda player on Fod, and got 4 stocked...

i think my marth just blows is the moral of the story

Yeah dude, cause I don't a Marth should ever get four stocked by Zelda.

You must have been mad nervous. ^^;

 

[Flamin Roy]

okay i seriously have marth troubles i do well in any other match up including luigi but marth still ***** me with his sword

 

[PK Webb]

okay i seriously have marth troubles i do well in any other match up including luigi but marth still ***** me with his sword

there whole ssbm cast has this problem u find a solution tell ever board about it

 

[Lovage]

sup ****ers
watch my fox

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=231711

 

[Grmo]

Alright, so I was playing with my friend today, and we did a few Fox dittos at one point. I started off the match with uthrow to thunders combo, then usmash, sh nair, jab reset, uthrow nair or something that got him off the edge (he didn't DI it, obviously), and then as always, I messed up the edgeguarding, at which point he makes this spectactular play on my mistake and starts spamming f tilt, which somehow was eating through everything I did. It actually took two or three seconds before I could get through it. So it got me thinking about using that move. Not spamming it like that, because I'm sure that's just my fault as a player for being ********, but general uses.

So here is a question a question: how do you use ftilt, if at all?

PS. Does it outrange anyone's grab?

 

[soap]

it outranges lots of grabs and is a solid move.

but i think a simple dash dance would **** anybody spamming it

 

[EWC]

I sometimes use downward angled ftilt to shield stab people after spaced bairs. It's also good for stopping poorly conceived, rushed approaches.

 

[Grmo]

Which is like everyone. Thanks for the help

 

[idea]

f-tilt's not a bad move, but i can't imagine a situation where it's the best thing to do. maybe for edgeguarding spacies when they use illusion and you're onstage?

 

[Tomacawk]

ftilt imo is useful for when you need a quick ledge guard and you don't have a better option, i.e. what you said
sometimes i use to when opponents are at high percents when im out of grab range to either put them in their shield or knock them into ledge guard situation

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Pivoting ftilts is really ****ing hilarious, but not really useful because the ftilt spacing is IMO one of the worst positions Fox can be in, apart from being knocked down or in the air without a jump.

 

[idea]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIBZztlxPJ8&feature=related

okay, about 0:22, that looks like a good use of ftilt.

 

[Tomacawk]

pretty much
I think it's safe to compare the usefulness to that of marth's, except it is not as useful, so if you want to put it in your game maybe you should try approaching it like you would with marth

 

[Milos]

Against a lot of recoveries, you can stand on the edge with a full shield held down, shield the attack early, drop your shield and ftilt to shine or something.

On that note, what are some other ways that fox can take advantage of shield physics and use to edgeguard? Pc uses down fullshield to shine spike oos a lot, is there anything else?

 

[Tomacawk]

well, light shield edge guarding...you can also do a bair instead of a shine when you drop off from lightshield edge guarding rather than hogging the ledge. That's all I can think of

 

[Miggz]

I only use Forward tilt as a quick edge guard at times. People sometimes never see it coming. It is a fast *** move.

 

[RaynEX]

okay i seriously have marth troubles i do well in any other match up including luigi but marth still ***** me with his sword

Don't miss lcancels on his shield. Don't play a hit&run game at arm's length - that's tipper range. Either shoot lasers and DD from afar, or get in really close and shine/grab and hope he blindspots his moves. Don't approach him from above, he can just DD and grab you in your lag, or smack you out of the sky with utilt. Try jumping over him and bairing, then pressure when his back is turned. Don't always run straight in and nair/dair. Run and shield, or run in and WD back to see what they will do. Condition them to expect a specific scenario, and completely change it the next time you approach. Once you get a grab you do huge damage, so all you really need is that one, quick mind**** to take a stock.

Most important thing:

The majority of Foxes are really good vs. Marth. Its not a complicated match-up really; all you have to do is spam grab and evade his sword intelligently. But while many Foxes may be able to handle him on-stage, its when they get him off that things start getting dicey. DON'T MISS AN EDGE-GUARD VS. MARTH. Why? Because he won't miss one vs. you. To him, its as simple as dtilt/fsmash or run off and fair. Its WAY too easy for Marth. You have to stay sharp and keep him off the edge. Don't let him grab it freely, don't let him airdodge/upb on safely. Punish Punish Punish. Because he will grab you and **** you if you don't.

Good luck.

Alright, so I was playing with my friend today, and we did a few Fox dittos at one point. I started off the match with uthrow to thunders combo, then usmash, sh nair, jab reset, uthrow nair or something that got him off the edge (he didn't DI it, obviously), and then as always, I messed up the edgeguarding, at which point he makes this spectactular play on my mistake and starts spamming f tilt, which somehow was eating through everything I did. It actually took two or three seconds before I could get through it. So it got me thinking about using that move. Not spamming it like that, because I'm sure that's just my fault as a player for being ********, but general uses.

So here is a question a question: how do you use ftilt, if at all?

PS. Does it outrange anyone's grab?

Low angled ftilt against the spacies and their illusions/firefox sweetspots. Works against Marths that miss their upb sweetspot as well. You can keep out of range of Marth's upb this way so it doesn't hit you through the stage, but still connect with ftilt. Then hog and roll or just shine.

If you're pressuring your opponent near an edge, WD back and ftilt. They might run into it, trying to hit you as they barrel back towards the middle of the stage with moves.

If you don't want to over-commit during combos, nair->ftilt or something is safe and it still hits them away.

Thats all I can think of right now.

 

[halcyon.days]

So I have a question about Fox's pillar.

I can do shine -> nair -> shine -> nair, rinse and repeat REALLY fast in between stocks with the control stick.

I want to use this to apply pressure against my opponents shield (aka. Jman style) but as soon as my shine hits them, I never jump when I hit up on the control stick. I learned how to do it with the control stick because I'm more consistent with short hopping the jc shine, and when I press Y I mess up sometimes and do a fullhop (when I try to jc shine quickly, but not when I'm in normal gameplay and stuff).

I don't know why it's not letting me jump after the jcshine with up on the control stick... am I pressing it too fast?

 

[soap]

yes u r doing it 2 fast.

there is hitlag on the move when u hit stuff and u must compensate timing by slowing down.

I'd use the button

 

[RaynEX]

^ What he said. You are probably hitting up on the control stick right as the shine hitlag begins. You can't jump out while it hits. Wait a tiny bit longer.

 

[Grmo]

I use X to jump while I'm pillaring and it works fine. I never do it for that long though; mostly I'll try to get behind them and grab, which really isn't hard unless I'm fighting Mr. Hair here, in which case commence being a hacky sack.

 

[Miggz]

I have a quick question on Fox's ledge hop waveland. I've been toying around with it and I was curious as to how everyone else executes it. I can do it consistently to some degree by dropping kind of low and jumping with Y and waveland. But I figured my invulnerable frames would be gone doing it that way. So I then tried it a different way. I let go of the edge and I quickly jump with the analog and then I quickly angle the analog into a wavedash. I found that doing it this way makes it so that its not necessary to drop to low from the edge.

So, does anyone which to discuss their method with me? If you know a better one I would love to hear it. ^^

 

[ArcNatural]

I have a quick question on Fox's ledge hop waveland. I've been toying around with it and I was curious as to how everyone else executes it. I can do it consistently to some degree by dropping kind of low and jumping with Y and waveland. But I figured my invulnerable frames would be gone doing it that way. So I then tried it a different way. I let go of the edge and I quickly jump with the analog and then I quickly angle the analog into a wavedash. I found that doing it this way makes it so that its not necessary to drop to low from the edge.

So, does anyone which to discuss their method with me? If you know a better one I would love to hear it. ^^

I just do it like I do every other waveland just pressing down then holding forward and slightly down to waveland. It definitely took a while to get it down with Fox though. I found the best way to practice it was to do it extremely fast, taking a few seconds to calm yourself and try to do it never helps.

 

[RaynEX]

Fox's jump is so fast that his ledge waveland feels like his onstage WD tbh. When I was learning it, I would look away from the screen and do a WD, as if I wasn't on the ledge. I would always do it perfectly that way. When I was looking and focusing on it, I sometimes held down and airdodged to my death, or did it too slowly. Just hit down on the control stick then WD like you would onstage. Thats how I do it.

 

[EWC]

What I do is shine, then jump with y and waveland with R. The timing for this is virtually identical to doing a waveshine, so it's easy to learn.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

I am terrible at thid technique. Thanks rayn

 

[FastFox]

I hope we're talking about wavelanding from the edge?

It all depends on what angle you're tilting the control stick, how soon you shine, and your timing of the wavedash.

Also, this gets really easy if you just go do it in training mode for like, 2 hours.

 

[Reptard]

I have a question what is your advice for having those amazing tech skills, and how could I practice them?

I mean Silent Wolf's, because in those tech vids you are doing this crazy stuff, and I'd like to know a little bit more on how you multishine so fast and JC shine so fast.

Please and thank you. ^.^

 

[DtJ Jungle]

It's serisouly just practice and how you choose to JC shine.

 

[Miggz]

Fox's jump is so fast that his ledge waveland feels like his onstage WD tbh. When I was learning it, I would look away from the screen and do a WD, as if I wasn't on the ledge. I would always do it perfectly that way. When I was looking and focusing on it, I sometimes held down and airdodged to my death, or did it too slowly. Just hit down on the control stick then WD like you would onstage. Thats how I do it.

Thanks a bunch, RaynEX. I literally done it on my second attempt using your method. So I'll keep practicing, but I am far more consistent doing it this way. When I really get comfortable with it I might start doing ledge hop waveland to waveshines. ^^

Thanks again, buddy.

 

[Da Shuffla]

I have a question what is your advice for having those amazing tech skills, and how could I practice them?

I mean Silent Wolf's, because in those tech vids you are doing this crazy stuff, and I'd like to know a little bit more on how you multishine so fast and JC shine so fast.

Please and thank you. ^.^

Just practice different things you may think of. First start out with the basics, like waveshining. Then, go on to more advanced moves like shine usmash, and shine out-of-shield. Right now, I'm working on waveshining oos consistently.

 

[Meneks]

I have a question what is your advice for having those amazing tech skills, and how could I practice them?

I mean Silent Wolf's, because in those tech vids you are doing this crazy stuff, and I'd like to know a little bit more on how you multishine so fast and JC shine so fast.

Please and thank you. ^.^

Well you need to have LOTS of practice...LOTS after a while your muscle memory will get better and you will be able to do things much more consistently such as shine shffls...
As for multishining I think fox is the easiest to multishine with...
and i slide my fingers from B to Y then back to B...
Sort of like a shdl but faster..

 

[knightpraetor]

could someone discuss fox's throw game vs doc? nair beats out your upair right? your best bet is either to dj a bair spaced horizontally or to bait the jump and then punish them with an aerial or upsmash on the way down?

i remember one moment i saw someone upsmash...but they will jump out before then i would think..but maybe if you expect they will fall a nair?

anyways, i don't play the matchup much, but waveshining isn't as useful against doc..it's very easy for a doc to DI the shine after a dair in my opinion...

i think it's cause when i play doc i'm more grounded so i have more focus to devote to such things..but i rarely fail to smash DI the shine myself..and i can't rely on it against my friends as much either so i end up using a lot of nair to jab, etc..it feels like a hit and run game..

i'm confident that i would take it on most stages, but on fd, i think it is a threat...it seems you need to camp to win against his cging there...and you just slowly rack up the damage...still doesn't seem that bad for doc on fd

 

[RaynEX]

could someone discuss fox's throw game vs doc? nair beats out your upair right? your best bet is either to dj a bair spaced horizontally or to bait the jump and then punish them with an aerial or upsmash on the way down?

i remember one moment i saw someone upsmash...but they will jump out before then i would think..but maybe if you expect they will fall a nair?

anyways, i don't play the matchup much, but waveshining isn't as useful against doc..it's very easy for a doc to DI the shine after a dair in my opinion...

i think it's cause when i play doc i'm more grounded so i have more focus to devote to such things..but i rarely fail to smash DI the shine myself..and i can't rely on it against my friends as much either so i end up using a lot of nair to jab, etc..it feels like a hit and run game..

i'm confident that i would take it on most stages, but on fd, i think it is a threat...it seems you need to camp to win against his cging there...and you just slowly rack up the damage...still doesn't seem that bad for doc on fd

Sorry I've not been around. Big EC Canada tourny last weekend and I'm uploading the vids.

About Doc:

-They can't d.i. out of waveshine grab. Waveshine to anything else is too risky. Only other thing you could do would be dtilt and maybe hope for an uair afterwards. If you do perfect wavedashes you can link usmashes and get it to combo, even with their d.i. This has been tested too, I think.

-Uthrow doesn't combo into uair, they can DJ out. So either wait, like you said, and punish them on their way down, or chase them on the ground with uairs.

-If you space your uair Doc's nair shouldn't beat it. If you're having problems with that still, do an early uair, because the second hit will go straight through Doc's nair (max distance)

-Ban FD vs. Doc and take him to a big stage where he can't catch you. You have speed and projectile advantage, and can reflect his pills so save your shield for close proximity fights. This match-up is very easy if you just space bair and edge-guard him well. Take him to small stages if you're comfortable enough on them to pour on the pressure.

 

[ArcNatural]

A simple tip that people forget against Doc, you can literally just upthrow to uptilt them. Especially if they try to nair out. Probably works if they try to dair out too. If they double jump out you can react and double jump upair them spaced correctly or bair. One of my friends does double jump and nairs or dairs, and on platform stages you can double jump waveland on the top platform and upsmash/uptilt them out of it if they do this.

These are just a few offensive options. Smart Docs will keep you guessing and figure out ways around these, but they usually get you some combos here and there.

Also honestly, well spaced bairs and retreating bairs just destroy Doc. He really has no answer to this. All he can try to do is get in and hope you mess up with your spacing and grab you.

 

[Dogysamich]

I honestly dont think Fox has it as easy as you make it sound vs Doc, but you have to look at the number of noteworthy docs compared to noteworthy foxes.

For b.air in general; there's things to do for it. I mean, Doc DOES have a disjointed move, and he can go around it. Just.... not through it, but then again, alot of people cant go through a Fox b.air.

You're right in banning FD, Fox really gets nothing from it but chaingrabbed. Beyond that, it really comes down to preference on stage. Raynex just said Fox wants the smaller stage, I personally would believe Fox would want the bigger stage. Just a difference of opinion.

 

[RaynEX]

Raynex just said Fox wants the smaller stage, I personally would believe Fox would want the bigger stage. Just a difference of opinion.

HI DOGY!

Sorry but I'm going to have to correct you. I said only if you are comfortable with a smaller stage. Bigger is better.

Ban FD vs. Doc and take him to a big stage where he can't catch you. You have speed and projectile advantage, and can reflect his pills so save your shield for close proximity fights. This match-up is very easy if you just space bair and edge-guard him well. Take him to small stages if you're comfortable enough on them to pour on the pressure.