Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Dogysamich]

i have selective reading.

As in, I select something I want to comment on and just completely ignore everything around it.

My bad. XD

 

[RaynEX]

lol. no biggie.

I agree though; Doc/Fox isn't as terri-bad for Doc as people make it out to be.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think cape is too slow to be a real answer for Fox's back air. But I really don't know anything about the matchup because there are no good Doc players.

 

[Dogysamich]

It depends on what constitutes as "fast enough". When I see b.air, Im kinda lookin to move away from it.

That thing kinda hurts. :|

 

[ArcNatural]

It depends on what constitutes as "fast enough". When I see b.air, Im kinda lookin to move away from it.

That thing kinda hurts. :|

Yeah it's rough. The only thing I can think of for offensive purposes would be wavedashing under them for uptilts, or moving forward/wavedashing into the bair and angling the shield up to get some grab/oos attempts.

Only issues are Doc is already pretty short so I don't think it helps him as much as other characters. But other than running away this is all I can think of. Thankfully his nair/bair are pretty fast so it might be applicable if you get inside the spacing.

Angled shields are so broken right now.

 

[Milos]

yea i break all angled shield with mah teck sqil

 

[RaynEX]

angled shields lose to properly timed lcancel -> shines.

 

[ArcNatural]

angled shields lose to properly timed lcancel -> shines.

Smaller characters I'll agree to this, but I actually think taller characters (Marth/Sheik) have a few frames to grab, especially if you do hit high on the shield as opposed to late. I'm not sure if this has been tested but I thought normal shields gave Fox a 2-3 frame window to beat out the grab. So angled shields seem reasonable enough to give you 2-3 frames. Delaying the aerials will work to stop this, but it is an option I think. It's also much better against Falco as his general approaches all only hit your shield once while Fox does have the dair.

And are you saying that angled Fox/Falco shields lose to properly timed lcancel -> shines? I thought shine OOS beats this.

 

[Reptard]

It's serisouly just practice and how you choose to JC shine.

But that's the thing, I don't know how to JC shine.

 

[Miggz]

But that's the thing, I don't know how to JC shine.

All you do is shine, and tap up on the analog stick. Or, simply shine and press Y or X.

 

[halcyon.days]

To all those people who can pillar properly with nair shine nair shine. What button do you use to jump?

I use Y to jump for aerials, X for waveshines, and up on the control stick for assorted things (like SHDLs and quick aerial -> shines -> aerials in between stocks).

I've been trying to learn how to pillar with Fox because it's obviously really good, and I've mastered shine oos. I started by using the control stick first but it's just way too easy to mess up, so I turned to Y. The thing is, I've been so used to waveshining after a nair that my thumb automatically goes to X and totally ****s up the pillar.

Which leads me back to my question. Obviously I realize that it's personal preference etc. etc. but I'm curious.

 

[ArcNatural]

To all those people who can pillar properly with nair shine nair shine. What button do you use to jump?

I use Y to jump for aerials, X for waveshines, and up on the control stick for assorted things (like SHDLs and quick aerial -> shines -> aerials in between stocks).

I've been trying to learn how to pillar with Fox because it's obviously really good, and I've mastered shine oos. I started by using the control stick first but it's just way too easy to mess up, so I turned to Y. The thing is, I've been so used to waveshining after a nair that my thumb automatically goes to X and totally ****s up the pillar.

Which leads me back to my question. Obviously I realize that it's personal preference etc. etc. but I'm curious.

This was actually the reason I switched to Y completely. I just had a lot of trouble switching between nair -> pillars and waveshining that I just said "Screw it" and switched completely to Y for everything. It only took me about 2 weeks get all the muscle memory back and start building from that.

To me it just simplifies everything. Hitting B with the middle of your thumb, hitting Y with the tip of your thumb and then hitting A/B/Y with the middle/tip of thumb is much easier than using X to complete the same thing. Doing that method also actually gives you time during application so you don't have to be moving your hands at a ridiculously fast pace to do these things. Makes it easier for when you have to vary the nair or other aerial timings (late or early, etc.).

I've never been comfortable using up to jump other than for fulljump/doublejump situations and jumping out of shines in the air. So I can't really give advice on that. But my suggestion is if you already use Y to just get rid of X for waveshining if that's all you use it for. It won't take long to relearn the muscle memory for just waveshining.

All you do is shine, and tap up on the analog stick. Or, simply shine and press Y or X.

Isn't this jumping out of Shine, not JC Shine?

I always thought JC shine means Jump Canceled by shine. Like JC grabbing. Which means that you jump with either up or Y/X, then shine within 4 frames to prevent Fox from leaving the ground.

 

[Milos]

i like to flick up to SH oo shine. if you do it that way, you only have to alternate between A and B, and not ABY or ABX

yea JC shine refers to what arc said

 

[battousai555]

i like to flick up to SH oo shine. if you do it that way, you only have to alternate between A and B, and not ABY or ABX

yea JC shine refers to what arc said

Isn't this jumping out of Shine, not JC Shine?

I always thought JC shine means Jump Canceled by shine. Like JC grabbing. Which means that you jump with either up or Y/X, then shine within 4 frames to prevent Fox from leaving the ground.

LOLWUT? Shine->jump is most definitely called a "JC Shine."

 

[ArcNatural]

LOLWUT? Shine->jump is most definitely called a "JC Shine."

so JC grab is by correlation Grab -> jump?

I think your confusing multishines (which is a combination of JC shining and jumping out of shine) to the actual definition.

 

[knightpraetor]

-They can't d.i. out of waveshine grab. Waveshine to anything else is too risky. Only other thing you could do would be dtilt and maybe hope for an uair afterwards. If you do perfect wavedashes you can link usmashes and get it to combo, even with their d.i. This has been tested too, I think.


Yeah, i just wasn't using waveshine to grab because i wasn't getting enough off the grabs to make it worth risking the dair lead in. Waveshine - upsmash...i seemed to get perfect wavedashes about 50% of the time...but one shield + wd out into grab by the doc made up for the waveshine combo.

Angled shields sound interesting. I don't use them at the moment. I mean lightshield seems easier to throw off fox/falco with if they plan to reflexively shine. But basically the concept is just angle hard shield up into grab? and it should give me an extra frame or two to try to grab?

sounds pretty broken to be honest. Originally the pillar had like a one frame window to attempt to grab it if done normally, so an extra frame or two would actually make it so one doesn't have to be frame perfect.

 

[nasir123]

can any1 help me with the fox vs marth match up because i dont get it'

 

[professor mgw]

what is a wave shine?

 

[Tomacawk]

waveshining is down+b, jump->wavedash->shine again, repeat.

fox vs marth is really difficult. I think I'll leave that to people who can articulate it more than I, but...dash dance. a lot. keep him in the air. don't play with marth near the ledge, you'll lose your stock.

 

[halcyon.days]

Aerial (nair or dair) -> waveshine -> grab -> uthrow -> uair (and one more if you can) is the main strat that I use since it works so well.

Just remember that Marth has a lot of trouble dealing with people below him and wavedash oos works pretty well if your opponent is fmash happy.

Play like Captain Falcon vs Marth. Falcon has to dash dance camp and Marth ledge camps, the only difference is that Fox has a laser. Shoot some lasers and force him to approach you and make mistakes.

 

[EWC]

When you play against marth, make sure you capitalize on every opening the fullest, taking a stock or at least doing massive damage, because you can be **** sure he'll do the same. If you miss your edge-guards, work on it until you don't. If you ever miss waveshine->grab, work on until you don't.

Every grab you get should be followed by massive ****. Up-air is good at low percents when bair won't give enough hitstun to follow up, and at high percents to kill. Bair is good at mid percents, to extend combos for max damage.

If your opponent can SDI out of up-throw->up-air with any consistency, then killing marth becomes much harder. To get around this, learn to space your up-airs so that only the second hit lands. Roughly, the way to do this is to double jump and up-air at the same time, positioned so that you barely reach them.

As I said before, edge-gaurding marth is something you have to master. The basic idea is to get on the edge and keep renewing your invincibility. The most common mistake here is to get off of the edge too soon. This is understandable, given that if you get hit by his up-b, you're pretty much dead. You j have to remember that when you have invincible frames, you are, shockingly enough, invincible. Just wait until they are within the range of a low edgehopped bair, then do one. As an extra precaution, in case your frames run out to soon and you get hit, you can press L as you bair. That way, you will tech, walljump (I'm assuming you jumped with up like me), and can side-b to the edge again. Either way, get back on the edge, rinse and repeat. If marth tries to go low, then just drop and shine him. Finally, if he stalls right below you by doing side-b double jump fair, you should be able to drop and safely shine him in his lag, assuming that you have pretty good reflexes.

To get openings on marth, there are basically two different approaches. One is run away and to shoot lots of lasers to force him to approach. This works as long as you keep your goal in mind: make him approach, and punish it. This means, when he does approach you, don't run away and shoot more. If you do this, you'll just get pushed towards the edge, where you'll get molested until you're dead. I generally shoot lasers only from the center of the stage, when my opponent is near the edge.

The other method of approaching marth is to get up in his face. Dash dance around him, close enough to put pressure on him, but out of his sword range. If he goes into the air, get under him and ****. Running sheild->stuff and dash-attack work well here. If you dash-attack, make sure to crouch cancel in case you trade. If marth tries to dash dance camp or run away, overshoot grab. If you get really close to him, spotdodge->shine->grab is amazing. The idea here is basically to out-maneuver him and force him to make the first move.

 

[nasir123]

When you play against marth, make sure you capitalize on every opening the fullest, taking a stock or at least doing massive damage, because you can be **** sure he'll do the same. If you miss your edge-guards, work on it until you don't. If you ever miss waveshine->grab, work on until you don't.

Every grab you get should be followed by massive ****. Up-air is good at low percents when bair won't give enough hitstun to follow up, and at high percents to kill. Bair is good at mid percents, to extend combos for max damage.

If your opponent can SDI out of up-throw->up-air with any consistency, then killing marth becomes much harder. To get around this, learn to space your up-airs so that only the second hit lands. Roughly, the way to do this is to double jump and up-air at the same time, positioned so that you barely reach them.

As I said before, edge-gaurding marth is something you have to master. The basic idea is to get on the edge and keep renewing your invincibility. The most common mistake here is to get off of the edge too soon. This is understandable, given that if you get hit by his up-b, you're pretty much dead. You j have to remember that when you have invincible frames, you are, shockingly enough, invincible. Just wait until they are within the range of a low edgehopped bair, then do one. As an extra precaution, in case your frames run out to soon and you get hit, you can press L as you bair. That way, you will tech, walljump (I'm assuming you jumped with up like me), and can side-b to the edge again. Either way, get back on the edge, rinse and repeat. If marth tries to go low, then just drop and shine him. Finally, if he stalls right below you by doing side-b double jump fair, you should be able to drop and safely shine him in his lag, assuming that you have pretty good reflexes.

To get openings on marth, there are basically two different approaches. One is run away and to shoot lots of lasers to force him to approach. This works as long as you keep your goal in mind: make him approach, and punish it. This means, when he does approach you, don't run away and shoot more. If you do this, you'll just get pushed towards the edge, where you'll get molested until you're dead. I generally shoot lasers only from the center of the stage, when my opponent is near the edge.

The other method of approaching marth is to get up in his face. Dash dance around him, close enough to put pressure on him, but out of his sword range. If he goes into the air, get under him and ****. Running sheild->stuff and dash-attack work well here. If you dash-attack, make sure to crouch cancel in case you trade. If marth tries to dash dance camp or run away, overshoot grab. If you get really close to him, spotdodge->shine->grab is amazing. The idea here is basically to out-maneuver him and force him to make the first move.

thanx bro dun really get it too much but it helped a lot the marth that i washavin trouble with i destroyed him uterly and yeah but thanks 2 the rest if u guys u helped 2 but man this kid put a lot of words into it XD

 

[battousai555]

so JC grab is by correlation Grab -> jump?

I think your confusing multishines (which is a combination of JC shining and jumping out of shine) to the actual definition.

Well, the shine is being canceled by a jump, isn't it? Eh, I guess it doesn't really matter.

What would you call shine->jump then? The shine is being canceled, so you think it would have a name.
/roflmywaffle.

 

[Reptard]

All you do is shine, and tap up on the analog stick. Or, simply shine and press Y or X.

So, it's basically like multishines?

 

[TemPesT-]

whats fox's best way to punish spot dodges? i was practicing vs aarosmashguy and he kept spot dodging my missed grabs...but then when i started to wait for his spot dodge, his shine would hit me before i could punish it. :S

 

[ArcNatural]

Well, the shine is being canceled by a jump, isn't it? Eh, I guess it doesn't really matter.

What would you call shine->jump then? The shine is being canceled, so you think it would have a name.
/roflmywaffle.

It should probably be called SC jump lol (shine-canceled jump). But in all actuality it seems like the whole JC shine definition has gotten pretty blurry but if you show them they all know which one you mean.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

whats fox's best way to punish spot dodges? i was practicing vs aarosmashguy and he kept spot dodging my missed grabs...but then when i started to wait for his spot dodge, his shine would hit me before i could punish it. :S

seems like you just got the timing wrong. You should be able to do any move before he can shine.

 

[Tomacawk]

whats fox's best way to punish spot dodges? i was practicing vs aarosmashguy and he kept spot dodging my missed grabs...but then when i started to wait for his spot dodge, his shine would hit me before i could punish it. :S

IMO it's better to get the grab after the shine. also, if the spotdodge is ****** you you could always just nair in, rather than grab approach

 

[ArcNatural]

whats fox's best way to punish spot dodges? i was practicing vs aarosmashguy and he kept spot dodging my missed grabs...but then when i started to wait for his spot dodge, his shine would hit me before i could punish it. :S

Another thing to point out from what's already being said. But if your getting shined out of your grab attempts your spacing it wrong. You can grab without getting shined.

 

[RaynEX]

so JC grab is by correlation Grab -> jump?

I think your confusing multishines (which is a combination of JC shining and jumping out of shine) to the actual definition.

JC grab is actually jump -> grab. You're jumping first, which puts your character in a stationary animation before they leave the ground. You are then grabbing during that animation to perform your regular standing grab (which generally has less recovery time then your dash grab) out of your dash. So JC grab makes more sense. You are canceling your jump into grab.

JC shine and jumping out of shine are the same thing. In order to jump out of your shine and "cancel" its lag, you press up, Y or X right? JC shine = jump out of shine. JC shines also refer to the act of canceling your shine into another shine, by jump canceling its lag and shining again (while still otg) - and repeating this process till you break someones heart and soul.

Noob information I know. XD

whats fox's best way to punish spot dodges? i was practicing vs aarosmashguy and he kept spot dodging my missed grabs...but then when i started to wait for his spot dodge, his shine would hit me before i could punish it. :S

Charge usmash.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

I think arc knew that, he just aid it in order to dispute battousai's point.

 

[Tero.]

If we use the same definition as for JC Grabs and JC Usmash then JC Shine would be jump and shine before you leave the ground. If you shine and then cancel the shine with a jump it is actually JC a/the shine, but definition gets mixed up and is kinda blurry, that's what Arc meant.

crappy english skills I know, but I hope you got it
It doesn't really matter anyway.

 

[Binx]

When you play against marth, make sure you capitalize on every opening the fullest, taking a stock or at least doing massive damage, because you can be **** sure he'll do the same. If you miss your edge-guards, work on it until you don't. If you ever miss waveshine->grab, work on until you don't.

Every grab you get should be followed by massive ****. Up-air is good at low percents when bair won't give enough hitstun to follow up, and at high percents to kill. Bair is good at mid percents, to extend combos for max damage.

If your opponent can SDI out of up-throw->up-air with any consistency, then killing marth becomes much harder. To get around this, learn to space your up-airs so that only the second hit lands. Roughly, the way to do this is to double jump and up-air at the same time, positioned so that you barely reach them.

As I said before, edge-gaurding marth is something you have to master. The basic idea is to get on the edge and keep renewing your invincibility. The most common mistake here is to get off of the edge too soon. This is understandable, given that if you get hit by his up-b, you're pretty much dead. You j have to remember that when you have invincible frames, you are, shockingly enough, invincible. Just wait until they are within the range of a low edgehopped bair, then do one. As an extra precaution, in case your frames run out to soon and you get hit, you can press L as you bair. That way, you will tech, walljump (I'm assuming you jumped with up like me), and can side-b to the edge again. Either way, get back on the edge, rinse and repeat. If marth tries to go low, then just drop and shine him. Finally, if he stalls right below you by doing side-b double jump fair, you should be able to drop and safely shine him in his lag, assuming that you have pretty good reflexes.

To get openings on marth, there are basically two different approaches. One is run away and to shoot lots of lasers to force him to approach. This works as long as you keep your goal in mind: make him approach, and punish it. This means, when he does approach you, don't run away and shoot more. If you do this, you'll just get pushed towards the edge, where you'll get molested until you're dead. I generally shoot lasers only from the center of the stage, when my opponent is near the edge.

The other method of approaching marth is to get up in his face. Dash dance around him, close enough to put pressure on him, but out of his sword range. If he goes into the air, get under him and ****. Running sheild->stuff and dash-attack work well here. If you dash-attack, make sure to crouch cancel in case you trade. If marth tries to dash dance camp or run away, overshoot grab. If you get really close to him, spotdodge->shine->grab is amazing. The idea here is basically to out-maneuver him and force him to make the first move.

You have some right ideas but your edgeguarding advice is very dangerous.

VS Marth you want to use dash dancing to space and have him miss an aerial, a grab or a dash attack, dtilt is only really punishable if you were already attacking over it, so its not reliable to try and punish, utilt is also difficult to punish because they shouldn't be throwing it out at times you would be able to. Fsmash is punishable if your quick with a wavedash OoS.

So how do we get Marth to attack us and miss? well we laser and we run around, I like to use platforms for this too, but you have to be really patient, its a dangerous place to be, above marth, but I find I get grabbed less up there so its sort of a trade off.

If you can get a shine off, a nair, or a drill, they should all lead into grabs in some way or another, dair you can shine wavedash grab uair, or you can just straight grab if you didn't connect vs a shield. With nair at crouch cancel percents I shine just to be safe, but those often lead into grabs, I think its guaranteed around 40%. Once your opponent is used to being grabbed out of nairs you can slip more nairs in which they will usually jump into trying to avoid the grab.

Edgeguarding Marth is tricky, you have a few options, if they are close enough and have a double jump and are able to sweetspot or make significant distance onto the stage I would be very wary, you MAY be able to land a risky shine but you could also die, also if they attack in an unexpected way you are going to be in hitstun at the edge, which is awful, especially vs Marth. If they are so far they have to sweetspot lightshield edgehog is guaranteed, also if they are over 100%, lightshield edgehog should net you a kill even if they land on the stage, just ledge hop an uair into them.

After about 90% I like to sneak bairs and nairs in after my uthrows to get them off the ledge and get some medium percent kills, after a couple of these people start to DI up which is death 20% early once I mix in uairs again.

Other than that its all pretty much up to you to predict timing of their upb, I like to stand and dsmash if I think they are gonna up b early, if I expect a sweetspot I try and force myself not to move, I know its reflex to roll or get off as soon as they are in sweetspot range, unfortunately Marth has 2 tools to extend his sweetspot duration, a double jump and a forward b, if you predict either of these you can often shine spike them during it, if they already used their floaty forward b or double jump then you should be able to get the edgehog by being patient, although if you are at a very high percent its risky cause you could be spiked into the ledge.

Make sure to mix up your recoveries as well, fire fox above the stage at angles that will let you go towards your opponent, sweetspot or above for a platform, make your opponent guess. Don't do it so close they can jump out an fair, neutral b or spike you.

whats fox's best way to punish spot dodges? i was practicing vs aarosmashguy and he kept spot dodging my missed grabs...but then when i started to wait for his spot dodge, his shine would hit me before i could punish it. :S

The timing will vary based on your personal reflexes, I hit grab almost right after I see the spot dodge and they usually end right when my hitbox is out, I run at them in shield, wait for the spot dodge, the second it goes off I have a VERY minor pause and hit A to grab them. This is the timing I use, you need to find one that works for you.

Also Upsmash, charge for half a second and release and it will usually land, the problem I have is that the people I play spot dodge less the high percent they get, so often if I do have an opportunity to punish a spot dodge its at a lower percent where Upsmash won't typically link into anything.

 

[ArcNatural]

JC grab is actually jump -> grab. You're jumping first, which puts your character in a stationary animation before they leave the ground. You are then grabbing during that animation to perform your regular standing grab (which generally has less recovery time then your dash grab) out of your dash. So JC grab makes more sense. You are canceling your jump into grab.

JC shine and jumping out of shine are the same thing. In order to jump out of your shine and "cancel" its lag, you press up, Y or X right? JC shine = jump out of shine. JC shines also refer to the act of canceling your shine into another shine, by jump canceling its lag and shining again (while still otg) - and repeating this process till you break someones heart and soul.

Noob information I know. XD

I said that as an example to why JC shine is not in fact shine -> jump(off battousai555 example). I'm pretty sure I know how to JC grab lol. But it helps lead me to my conclusion of the actual definition JC shine.

If you went on pure definition JC is jump canceled inferring that your canceling your jump, not the shine. But on smashboards it's been thrown around so much like the word mindgames it seems to conclude to both methods. But by definition jumping out of shine is canceling the shine not the jump. So in reality if we were to shorthand jumping out of shine it would be SC jump. (I'm just arguing semantics here I'm pretty sure most people know what the differences are).

Edit : With this you could say something like "Man I just ran up SCJC grabbed the guy." Inferring that you just shine canceled to a jump canceled grab. Stupid I know but at the same time kind of funny.

Edit2: The reason why people consider multishines to be a bunch of JC shines is simply because the 2nd JC shine ends up canceling the 1st shine by default and so on and so on. Just figured I would throw this out there.

 

[soap]

i like shine cancel.

says exactly what it does.

 

[knightpraetor]

question: is it ever worth going for nair onto a side platform from the main stage as in 0:12 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCOs-uT58zA

or am I always better off pressuring from underneath with bair or upair since i can't get punished for missing.

I feel like while i get punished, you also can sometimes surprise them, while getting under and close enough to bair/upair takes time, so they at least know they are going to be pressured; but i also feel like better plays would CC upsmash it if they were still on the platform, and if they jump, then either they would dodge it, or they would get hit by coming down at you..in which case you could have just dashdanced to punish more harshly.

Anyways, i'm thinking I should phase that out of my game, but wanted some thoughts. Thanks

 

[strangely mundane]

JC shine makes sense because it's Jump-Cancelled Shine, which means that the shine is cancelled by the jump.

 

[soap]

or it could be interpreted as u r cancelling your jump with a shine

like u do with usmash and grab

 

[ArcNatural]

JC shine makes sense because it's Jump-Cancelled Shine, which means that the shine is cancelled by the jump.

You can say this, but again by correlation JC grab does not work the same way. You could do Jump cancel shine and jump canceled shine, but then the acronym stays the same. (<3 semantics)

 

[halcyon.days]

If they are so far they have to sweetspot lightshield edgehog is guaranteed.

You're saying that if they have to sweetspot, you'll kill them with lightshield edgehog (Marth killer) guaranteed?

Unless I'm reading it wrong, that's wrong. If Marth sweetspots perfectly (and it's honestly not that hard to do), Marth killer doesn't work. In fact, you'll actually fall off the stage and, most likely, be edgeguarded with a dair when you firefox up.