Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

[Darxmarth23]

*sigh* Do you guys read what you type half the time?

Nop.

Entitled "Mindgames: The True Story"

No, its going to be called "Why I cry every night"

 

[Sosuke]

MK, Snake, Wario, Diddy Kong, ICs, take your pick. Better than refusing to adapt.

LOL picking up a secondary who doesn't have an advantage in the match up? (OH WAIT)

Kidna defeats the purpose.


Might as well pick up someone who at least goes even with him.
And also takes much less time to learn.




How exactly does a top Samus player refuse to adapt?

 

[Deadweight]

I retract my SF4 statement, I was referring more to console but its w/e
Ill give a more local example:
Gigabits usually has roughly 80+ single entrants for brawl....
Melee on the other hand...

 

[K@0S]

Yes, because he should have to use MK against MK.

MK has a lot of other even match-ups, and he was whining about MK when DDD is far worst for Samus. His argument was not valid anyway since he only takes into account his own match-up.

 

[Matador]

Genesis Melle Single Entrants: 290
Genesis Melee doubles entrants: 103
Genesis Brawl Single Entrants: 292
Genesis Brawl Double Entrants: 108

Was referring to the SF4 crowd. I couldn't care less how well/bad Melee's doing right now; it's not an accurate reflection of the game's competitive viability, though I find it hilarious that you're making a huge deal over a less-than-ten-people difference.

 

[Flayl]

Might as well pick up someone who at least goes even with him.
And also takes much less time to learn.

Well yes, but guess what? Samus is destroyed by many high tiers, not just MK.

Low tiers aren't suddenly going to become viable when MK is gone.

Some people are expecting a complete shift of balance when MK disappears, i'ts not going to happen, not on mid and low levels.

 

[Red Arremer]

MK has a lot of other even match-ups, and he was whining about MK when DDD is far worst for Samus. His argument was not valid anyway since he only takes into account his own match-up.

Samus isn't tournament viable even without Meta Knight.

Edit: Sorry, wrong word used - insert some non-native English johns.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

SF4 community is very big but Brawl's is probably equally large. Smash combined is much bigger at least.

Well yes, but guess what? Samus is destroyed by many high tiers, not just MK.

Low tiers aren't suddenly going to become viable when MK is gone.

Some people are expecting a complete shift of balance when MK disappears, i'ts not going to happen, not on mid and low levels.

I would definitely expect things to change from mid-tier up, but not so much in the low-tiers. For instance, Diddy would be much more popular with MK gone, but it doesn't stop there. Diddy becomes more popular, and Peach does pretty well against Diddy. Therefore Peach suddenly has more merit as a secondary in the tourney scene, if even just by a little bit, etc.

I'm not saying there would be a DIVERSITY EXPLOSION!! but it's hard to deny things would be a little more open-ended.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

It has everything to do with it. Banning MK means that he's over-centralizing the game, compelling others to use MK for bad matchups, use MK to beat MK, and consequently, become overplayed/dominate tournaments.

Even if we're banning him for the sake of promoting diversity in the game and reviving the counterpick system, those actions are a direct result of MK ruining the game by being too good and beating everyone.

If people could beat MK, there'd be no argument. We'd keep MK and still have diversity in the results. If we ban him, we're doing it for the sake of those who can't beat MK with their characters like Boss or MikeHAZE do. Rather than become good enough like them, we ban him to cater to those are frustrated because they can't win and go MK. MK wrecks Marth/ROB, yet MikeHAZE, Neo and Holy do well vs them? It makes no sense to me.

Maybe this argument is less about "is MK beatable" and more "is MK healthy for SSBB". Because I know he's beatable.

Of course no good MK approaches with drill rush, because it's not a viable option. Therefore, it's further evidence that MK isn't broken!

See akuma arguments. A bad player with a godlike char can lose to a good player with a terrible char, you know.

whats the sbr count>????

like 14-11 or something???

I want to know this too.

We're not allowed to leak.

Well, what would the harm be? Really. Ask the guys if you can say, and why not.

I agree. On the bold, the problem with the Smash community is that everything is done in a basement setting, not in real tournament settings. People "test" these aspect, but they can never be accurate because of the method of testing something and who is playing against who. I doubt any of the match ups are correct.

Also, if people are beating Meta-Knight, then how is he broken?

Food for though:Smashboards considers Meta-Knight to be broken, but Meta-Knight loses all the time online and wasn't even in the top 8 at Evo in 08. Why?

Again, "People beat him" isn't enough of an argument if you ask me. People can beat Akuma. Sure, it's an unfair comparison, but the point is you can beat anyone!

Yes 1,241 54.10%
WTF people...

Banning MK is ***gotry. The way the game is, is the way the game is. Would you like if your character got banned?

God f'ing ****it ...

(lol it wordfilters "****"..)

You are a new player who does not understand the implications involved.

Lol, only 54% You need about 12.6 more % to get him banned.


MK wont be banned and you'll all have to cope with him even longer.

This is what makes this thread so depressing/enraging. The community is obviously in the majority for it-it's been proven time and time again. And the reasons are all there. But 66% majority is sick.

Obviously not, but at least a little transparency and accepting of input on different issues would be better than the "secret club" way they do things now.

Kinda agree here.

Now the question is : how many people vote Yes only because they would have less bad match-ups and not because they think MK warrants a ban ? I guess it's far more people than those who vote No only because MK is their main.

Almost all pro-ban arguments are biased. Imbalanced recovery ? GW has a better one and is better at planking.

22% ? Call that a dominance for the best character that people want to ban =/.

Mid tier would become viable ? As if MK was the one who makes it unviable. MK is like a better version of Marth, a lot of even/little advantage match-up, almost no **** match-up. DDD and G&W do it better.

No bad match-up ? That's a bit subjective as some people think that Snake or Diddy can become counters (I don't think so myself, I'm just pointing this out) and anyway it's not a ban criteria. A character with only 5/5 match-ups is less bannable than a character with only 9/1 match-ups except one with 4/6. And MK has several even match-ups.

It's kind of scary how brawl is the only game in which the community reacts this way. People don't realize how ridiculous we look for players of other fighting games.

See above.

Most top players that want mk to be banned in the US want it because THEY can't beat the top MK players (with a few exceptions like ally). We have already saw Snakes(ally) , Diddy Kongs (ninjalink), Warios (fiction), Marths (mikehaze), Falcos (SK92 and DEHF) beating top metaknights. My point is that players like Fiction who say that mk has to be banned just say that because M2K, Tyrant, Dojo are just better than him, and not mk better than Wario. Just be like Ally, train and WIN, don't just complain like that.
I vote NO to mk be banned

*sighs*
How often am I gonna keep saying this?

One thing that makes me cringe is when a pro player says MK should be banned, when they beat MK's all the time. *cough* Fiction. Seems unjustified to me, and a dumb thing to say when you beat MK's players often. You guys know what I mean?

He's thinking about what's best for SSBB, not what's best for Fiction. See above.

so i was thinking..whats wrong with us brawl players..why do we complain so much about mk so much..we need a answer to this metaknight problem..ok lets ban him

banning metaknight wont solve anything..i think it just makes the brawl community look weak having to ban a character not unbeatable..if he would ally woudnt even come close to beating m2k with snake..but thats not the case..we all have seen icy players beat metaknights..ddd's from the south

wario players from the west and alabama beat metaknight

we have seen diddy kongs from the north give metaknights trouble

falcos and so on with multiple other characters

so

dont ban metaknight..hes not that much better than the other charaCTERS

and if u want to ban mk..it just makes the community look weak and if we want respect from other communities..banning mk is not the answer

He IS that much better than the others, sorry. See above also.

Honestly the reason i chose to ban MK is not because i have a problem fighting MK necessarily.

I will space myself, play smart, outsmart and spike them. This is pretty hard especially offstage because i can get knocked out of my up-b with nair or dair and I can't bomb because MK will just dair until he hits me, but i like a challenge, it helps me get better.

And when MK mains see I can do this here is what happens, tornado spam.

That's a completely different story. Samus is tall, has little priority, and really can't do almost anything against a pro MK player spamming tornado.

If there is a move someone can spam when they are losing that you can't do anything about... maybe they should be banned.

I can't tell you how many times this has happened to me but I can say it is the reason why I lose at OVER 50% of the tourney's i go to. The rest of the time I play badly or get outskilled.

>.>
Lemme be honest, this argument is the problem with Pro-Ban. You give one matchup where one move completely ***** you and say "ban MK". That's like playing DK, getting ***** by the ICG and saying "ban DDD!". How about a little more info about why he's broken?


TBH, I think the main thing here is that we aren't quite clear what we're arguing. Why should metaknight be banned? My reasons are that he breaks the counterpick system, has no bad matchups, and we've been ******* around with rules created almost exclusively to hem him (IDC anyone? To a lesser extent due to other plankers like G&W and Pit, ledge grabs) and ignoring that even if Metaknight had to press the offense almost the entire game long so that he didn't get DQ'd, he could and would still win because even without his stalling tools, he's offensively by far the best character in the game and can do almost anything other than projectile spam and character specific ATs ludicrously well.

 

[Sosuke]

MK has a lot of other even match-ups, and he was whining about MK when DDD is far worst for Samus. His argument was not valid anyway since he only takes into account his own match-up.

What other match ups is he expected to know at a high level?
And no, MK doesn't have "a lot of even match ups".

Well yes, but guess what? Samus is destroyed by many high tiers, not just MK.

Low tiers aren't suddenly going to become viable when MK is gone.

Some people are expecting a complete shift of balance when MK disappears, it's not going to happen, not on mid and low levels.

What does Samus not being viable anyway have to do with you saying he should pick up a secondary for MK specifically

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Everyone, something tells me we shouldn't be focusing on the banishment on MK. I think we should be focusing on advancing the metagame so that the game will last enough for us to see the results of banning or not banning him. From what I've seen the only change since Janurary 2009 is that the Zamus's play styles have been updated.

If I am wrong(and I hope I am) please explain and show me what has changed in the Metagame since Janurary 2009.

 

[Zolios]

No one went to Evo lol.

Anyway, it's all up to the tournament hosts how they want their scene going. This topic only reflects the views of what everyone wants, not what everyone thinks it should be. If the result ends in Metaknight being banned, it won't be a concrete factor in smash regardless. Within a year, the community will be able to see the which is more beneficial, MK being banned or not.

 

[Matador]

Well yes, but guess what? Samus is destroyed by many high tiers, not just MK.

Low tiers aren't suddenly going to become viable when MK is gone.

Some people are expecting a complete shift of balance when MK disappears, i'ts not going to happen, not on mid and low levels.

I wouldn't be surprised if there IS a huge shift in the event MK is banned.

People underrate how much MK being banned would affect the metagame. Marths will become more dominate, which results in less Marios/Luigis, which results in them switching to Snake/D3, which means more Pikas and Olimars, which means Anther will quit due to Pika becoming overplayed and gay, which will have Kirk at the top spot in the midwest, which will take west/east coast by surprise and result in Kirk winning Exodus (the second Genesis tourney) but Xyro won't have the same problems vs Ike and will win when he makes a special guest appearance at Hobo 23, making Samus tourney viable since he does well vs Ike who's now on HIS 4th thread debating whether or not to ban him.

And I'll be at all of the live stream chats yelling

"JENGA!"

 

[DanGR]

Is it because of her boobies?

No, it's her legs.

This^

On the contrary, the argument that Ryko presented is actually one that I hadn't considered and partially identify with. Even if people CAN beat MK, he still limits diversity and ultimately harms the game. I suppose that's what makes this an odd issue.

Remove the poison since it's slowly corroding the body, or keep the poison and allow the body to adapt and be stronger for it.

Exactly.

The way it's going, you're right. That just seems to be a community weakness though.

It is a community weakness, and it's one that we have to take action on. If the number of Meta Knight players just keeps increasing, then there isn't anything else we can do about it.

We coin the phrase "play to win" and recite Sirlin like the Holy Bible, but when MK starts dominating and becomes overplayed, we cry ban. When IC/D3 players infinite the **** out of you, you can't help but to think things need to be changed for the sake of balance and fairness. That doesn't seem right to me.

I for one don't agree with a lot of what Sirlin has to say. For one, he's not an expert on Brawl. I know much more than he does about the situation at hand.

I actually didn't even know MikeHAZE played M2K. I was simply referring to the hordes of MKs players like Neo, Boss, Reflex, MikeHAZE, Holy, etc. must face on the way to their top spots. Even if MikeHAZE DID beat M2K/Dojo, at the top of the metagame things like that don't even matter anymore. Sure, Marth has a hard time vs MK, but I'm not going to tell you that Dojo and M2K both being amazing players had anything less than 90% of why they win.

From a personal standpoint, it was pretty plainly clear after watching M2K's matches with MikeHaze that he doesn't know the matchup as nearly as well as Mike does. If M2K played like he did in those matches with about any other character, I really doubt he'd have won. (He won 3-2 in some really close matches)

Then again, I'm not exactly a top player. I'm entirely comfortable admitting that I may very well be wrong. That's why I said other better, more experienced players saw the same thing in the videos.

It's much more down to the player than anything at that point. That's why players like Azen and Ninjalink are allowed to thrive in tourneys.

True.

 

[stingers]

Boss ***** DrPP. Less Luigi's my ***

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I wouldn't be surprised if there IS a huge shift in the event MK is banned.

People underrate how much MK being banned would affect the metagame. Marths will become more dominate, which results in less Marios/Luigis, which results in them switching to Snake/D3, which means more Pikas and Olimars, which means Anther will quit due to Pika becoming overplayed and gay, which will have Kirk at the top spot in the midwest, which will take west/east coast by surprise and result in Kirk winning Exodus (the second Genesis tourney) but Xyro won't have the same problems vs Ike and will win when he makes a special guest appearance at Hobo 23, making Samus tourney viable since he does well vs Ike who's now on HIS 4th thread debating whether or not to ban him.

And I'll be at all of the live stream chats yelling

"JENGA!"

I love your avatar.

This is probably true, by the way. I wouldn't expect miracles, but mostly small things. You aren't going to suddenly see Link placing top 10 at nationals.

 

[Laijin]

This ban will completely destroy the brawl community.
Its a disaster waiting to happen.
I say we should go ahead and do it ;o
Seeing brawl as a bigger competitive game than some overshadowed games kinda pisses me off.

 

[Flayl]

What does Samus not being viable anyway have to do with you saying he should pick up a secondary for MK specifically

Seriously?

You're asking that question?

Why should Donkey Kong counterpick Dedede specifically?

 

[Deadweight]

Was referring to the SF4 crowd. I couldn't care less how well/bad Melee's doing right now; it's not an accurate reflection of the game's competitive viability, though I find it hilarious that you're making a huge deal over a less-than-ten-people difference.

Its more that Im noting the fact that Melee treats us like **** even though our community is larger. We shouldnt be dependent on what they think.

 

[CaliburChamp]

maybe he feels its better for the community, not himself >_>

Well, I can't say what he thinks, neither can you. So I'll just leave it at that.

I say this with the most possible respect:

You are dumb. Some people are capable of thinking objectively and of thinking beyond how a situation personally affects them. I play a character with one of the more favorable MK match-ups in the game and if anything, banning him could affect my character in a negative way, but I still want him banned. Why? Because although it doesn't matter to me/might be bad for me, I care about the game as a whole.

Metaknight doesn't break the game. Most of MK's matches are 60:40, including against some low tiers. And, I AM thinking about how this might affect the future, it's only going down hill for MK from here, MK's metagame will remain stagnant or get worse as new strategies evolve around beating MK. MK metagame won't go any higher than this, because people overuse him to the point where he is at the top of his metagame. The only way MK may get better is if they allow IDC in tournaments. Your ignorant for calling me dumb when I do have a good argument, and when I actually spell words correctly!

You're lack of insight is distubing.
It can be many things.
For one he amy feel that even though he beats top level meta knight's, he feels its because they dont know the matchup. That he defeated the player and not Meta knight, and that once those metaknight users figure out the mathcup, they would ****.

The fact that you are talking out of your *** and criticizing someone who is known for their knowledge and skill says alot about you.

You can say that about ANYONE! Anyone can train themselves to focus beating on one character. You can train a Diddy or Snake etc, to **** an MK, by playing the match up alot. I'm not talking out of my ***, and I don't have anything against Fiction, I just don't agree with him, and just because he is knowledgeable and skilled doesn't mean he's right about everything! No one is perfect. I can't believe you SL, this has to be the dumbest post I've ever seen from you.

 

[Darxmarth23]

Where is Bob Saget when you need him?!?!

 

[MetalMusicMan]

I say this with the most possible respect:

You are dumb. Some people are capable of thinking objectively and of thinking beyond how a situation personally affects them. I play a character with one of the more favorable MK match-ups in the game and if anything, banning him could affect my character in a negative way, but I still want him banned. Why? Because although it doesn't matter to me/might be bad for me, I care about the game as a whole.

I say THIS with the utmost respect, YOU are dumb.

I care about this game as a whole, too. Which is why I voted NOT to ban Metaknight

Look I can do it too!

 

[Tudor]

Well yes, but guess what? Samus is destroyed by many high tiers, not just MK.

Low tiers aren't suddenly going to become viable when MK is gone.

Some people are expecting a complete shift of balance when MK disappears, i'ts not going to happen, not on mid and low levels.

I don't expect a shift, i just don't expect to lose a majority of tourney's to tornado spam that doesn't take skill and that someone can do when their really good character is getting beat by my not so good character.

I also agree with sasukebowser

>.>
Lemme be honest, this argument is the problem with Pro-Ban. You give one matchup where one move completely ***** you and say "ban MK". That's like playing DK, getting ***** by the ICG and saying "ban DDD!". How about a little more info about why he's broken?

I don't think this argument is a problem. Maybe you misunderstood me (and i wasn't talking about just my character, it's not just Samus). If someone can spam tornado and win then there's a problem. How about you just ban tornado, if you play super smart you can somewhat over come the other moves (even broken dair and nair) but how are we supposed to beat tornado if most of our characters can't.

I get ***** by ICG but i never said ban DDD, that's a completely different story. Don't get grabbed, if you do it's your own fault (as long as it's not an infinite). But can you say don't get tornado spammed?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Metaknight doesn't break the game. Most of MK's matches are 60:40, including against some low tiers. And, I AM thinking about how this might affect the future, it's only going down hill for MK from here, MK's metagame will remain stagnant or get worse as new strategies evolve around beating MK. MK metagame won't go any higher than this, because people overuse him to the point where he is at the top of his metagame. The only way MK may get better is if they allow IDC in tournaments. Your ignorant for calling me dumb when I do have a good argument, and when I actually spell words correctly!

Spelling notwithstanding, your entire argument (in that post) was that people without an axe to grind shouldn't vote for an MK ban, which is completely absurd.

I say THIS with the utmost respect, YOU are dumb.

I care about this game as a whole, too. Which is why I voted NOT to ban Metaknight

Look I can do it too!

You missed the point completely. This guy said that voting for a MK ban is dumb because Fiction can beat MK. Whether or not I can beat MK has nothing to do with whether or not I want the ban, because even pro-ban guys know MK is "beatable." That isn't, has not been, and never will be the point and every time one of you twists it that way I want to stab a baby.

 

[Sosuke]

Seriously?

You're asking that question?

Why should Donkey Kong counterpick Dedede specifically?

So you're saying that He should pick up a secondary to fight MK

AND

a secondary for Samus' actual impossible ups?



MK must really be special, huh?

 

[MarKO X]

Over 1000 ppl entered Evo's SF4 tourney. Do not compare the size of Brawl to SF4, it may hurt you. lol

 

[betterthanbonds9]

pro-ban essay is both

-more in depth
-less obscure ("this season" wtf)

and the anti ban doesn't mention anything on how that ledge grab rule and EDC work out

 

[Flayl]

So you're saying that He should pick up a secondary to fight MK

AND

a secondary for Samus' actual impossible ups?



MK must really be special, huh?

Why are you playing dumb? You know he only complained about MK.

 

[UberWatts]

I wouldn't be surprised if there IS a huge shift in the event MK is banned.

People underrate how much MK being banned would affect the metagame. Marths will become more dominate, which results in less Marios/Luigis, which results in them switching to Snake/D3, which means more Pikas and Olimars, which means Anther will quit due to Pika becoming overplayed and gay, which will have Kirk at the top spot in the midwest, which will take west/east coast by surprise and result in Kirk winning Exodus (the second Genesis tourney) but Xyro won't have the same problems vs Ike and will win when he makes a special guest appearance at Hobo 23, making Samus tourney viable since he does well vs Ike who's now on HIS 4th thread debating whether or not to ban him.

And I'll be at all of the live stream chats yelling

"JENGA!"

that is a good post right there

 

[Matador]

It is a community weakness, and it's one that we have to take action on. If the number of Meta Knight players just keeps increasing, then there isn't anything else we can do about it.

I agree. It's rather depressing too, that we're dropping our favorite characters for the sake of doing better in tourneys...then losing to the actual GOOD players who use MK.

I for one don't agree with a lot of what Sirlin has to say. For one, he's not an expert on Brawl. I know much more than he does about the situation at hand.

Wow, neither do I. We should totally be best buddies on opposite sides of the fence. You can be Magneto, and I'll be Professor X. We can play chess n everything.

I believe he's extremely knowledgeable on competitive games in general, but it has to be taken in context to your particular situation. Of course, like the Bible, people love to twist it to say what they like, which is why I pretty much washed my hands of the whole "listen to Sirlin, his word is law" idea

In this particular situation, we should ultimately make our on decision.

I love your avatar.

lol, thanks. <3 Scrubs

This is probably true, by the way. I wouldn't expect miracles, but mostly small things. You aren't going to suddenly see Link placing top 10 at nationals.

I dunno...Legan's pretty fackeen oresum....

 

[Sosuke]

Why are you playing dumb? You know he only complained about MK.

Because he shouldn't have to pick up a secondary just to go even with him.
Whereas you can actually pick up a secondary to have an ADVANTAGE against other characters.

(This isn't specifically Tudor, this is just someone using Samus)

Ex. vs Dedede:
Samus get infinited by DDD. blah blah blah
He loses game 1.
He picks one of DDD's bad match ups.
He wins game 2.
Now it's onto game 3.


vs Meta Knight:
He loses game 1.
"HMMM WHO CAN I PICK TO WIN?"
"OH WAIT NO ONE HAS AN ADVANTAGE"
"I HAVE TO USE SOMEONE'S MAIN AGAINST THEM?!?"



That's not going to work out. And even if you pull out that "Ohh MK has other even match ups lalala" stuff, consider how much time it takes to learn a character like Diddy Kong when you can just pick MK up? Why WOULDN'T you pick MK?

 

[Life After Death]

mk shouldnt be banned lol

 

[AlphaZealot]

Brawl statistics:

 

[MarKO X]

picking up a 2nd to do better against a bad matchup isn't the problem.

 

[stingers]

what the hell that post was BLANK

ban mk, dude's broken

 

[TLMSheikant]

Sasuke just won the thread once more. Have my babies please?

 

[Tudor]

that is a good post right there

I wasn't really complaining, just explaining the reason I choose pro-ban. Other people have other reasons and that's explained on the first post.


sasukebowser makes some excellent points however.

 

[Matador]

Its more that Im noting the fact that Melee treats us like **** even though our community is larger. We shouldnt be dependent on what they think.

People on the Brawl side aren't just victims either. Both sides are ***** to each other.

I like Melee a great deal more, but I have respect enough for players of both games to not insult either. Especially since I played both competitively at one time or another, and probably will continue to.

But yeah, think for yourselves n all that.

 

[Deadweight]

Stongers thats not a blank post =/
Also Thats not including smaller weeklys that dont even post results on smashboards My weekly gives out 100$ a week with ~20 entrants... so yea..
Dayum

 

[Zolios]

Alpha, was that nation-wide or world-wide?