Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

[Flayl]

"I HAVE TO USE SOMEONE'S MAIN AGAINST THEM?!?"

No.

That's not going to work out. And even if you pull out that "Ohh MK has other even match ups lalala" stuff, consider how much time it takes to learn a character like Diddy Kong when you can just pick MK up? Why WOULDN'T you pick MK?

Scrub mentality at it's finest. I'm done here.

 

[The Sauce Boss]

Whether or not I can beat MK has nothing to do with whether or not I want the ban, because even pro-ban guys know MK is "beatable."

lol WTF. How do you think this point doesn't matter? Metaknight is beatable, but let's ban him? That makes no ****ing sense.

 

[Darth Waffles]

So many people are saying "22% isn't a majority"... It's not about being a majority, it's about being a majority per character.

"Metaknight holds roughly 22% of ALL tournament places, the most of any characters. 22/100 doesn't seem like much, but this is a single character taking nearly 1/4th of ALL tournament PLACEMENTS... out of 36 characters." (copy and paste is nice rather than cut everything else out) ~last point in the pro-ban side, and was mentioned in the anti-ban side

Again, read the last quoted part. It's 22% for one character out of 36 characters. 22/1 is NOT equal to 100/36. If every character won 22%, that would be 792% of winnings. If every character besides MK won half of that (11%), that's still 396%... still 296% too much.

Stop thinking of it as a bar graph and think of it like a PIE CHART. Put in MK's slice taking up nearly one-fourth of the pie (22%) and you get 35 remaining slices. That's 78% split 35 different ways, and each character gets, on average, a little over 2%. Suddenly, it's not about comparing 22 to 100; it's about comparing 22% to 2%. MK's slice is eleven times as large.

Fun Fact: On the chart, Pokemon Trainer is "overused" and is above many characters who will stay above him regardless of this chart

But wait! What is this!? Snake has his own portion of 13% (and D3 has 7%). Doesn't this mean that they should be immediately banned following MK? Well, let's throw them into the percentage mix. [100% - 22% (MK) - 13% (Snake)] / 34 remaining characters = slightly less than 2%. Now we're MORE than 11 times better if we look at MK's results and we're only 6x better if we look at Snake's.

In fact, if you add D3's 7% slice in and divide by 33, you get, on average, a 1.76% chance with 33 out of 36characters. Thirty-three out of 36 characters give you a 1.76% chance? Ouch.

Some will give you more, no doubt, while lowering others. Some characters are just naturally better than others. I strongly believe that Snake is a very good character and will never be surpassed by certain others. At the same time, however, Snake is shown to have weaknesses (no matter how small), and these weaknesses are reflected in the numbers. 22% chance compared to 1.76% is 12.5 times better; 13/1.76 is less than 7.5 times better. Both are good characters, to be sure, but the numbers are there, plain and simple.

Hold on, didn't Ally beat m2k? Stop using Ally as justification for MK not being banned. Stop saying "Ally beats m2k so Snake is better than MK and MK shouldn't be banned." There are so many things wrong with this that I can only mention some of them (besides individual players, outside influences, etc.). Ally > metaknight > snake is NOT a valid argument for either side. Why?

Ally is good at this game. He knows how to punish people, he does not miss powershields, he has great DI, and he doesn't put himself into positions where he can be killed easily (hence why he blows himself up and takes damage instead of gets KO'd). But you know what? His Falcon does the same thing. Sure, his falcon doesn't pull out grenades or kill with up tilt easily, but Ally still reads his opponent and reacts to patterns quickly. In this sense, Ally is no different with Snake than Anther is with Pikachu (etc.) So please stop using Ally and/or sandbagging as excuses or even valid arguments.

There are other points in both sides which I could argue/debunk, but I guess I'll stop here for now.

 

[Sosuke]

No.


Scrub mentality at it's finest. I'm done here.

GG's not being able to back up what you say.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Mostly just American tournaments. There were probably around 30-40 tournaments listed from countries ranging from Australia, Mexico, Europe, and Puerto Rico (actually a lot from PR - they seem to have a big community, I think a couple of their tournaments were 50-80 entrants strong).

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

It's another slippery slope fallacy.

EDIT: ninja'd by like, what, 15 people? :/

 

[SOVAman]

Yes keeps going up.

Not like it matters lol

the last polls sure didn't

 

[Dragoomba]

Has anybody else thought that one "30% handicap" idea was a good idea?

 

[deepseadiva]

Yes keeps going up.

It's been at 5% in either direction since forever.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Where is Bob Saget when you need him?!?!

Oh my god this^

Bob Saget, sig Darxmarth's comment.

 

[Red Arremer]

So many people are saying "22% isn't a majority"... It's not about being a majority, it's about being a majority per character.

I hope you are aware of the fact that Mew2King alone has made quite a big chunk out of these 22%?
That, compared to characters, Mew2King alone would be the 8th-best character when it comes to tournament results?

Saying "Ally is just a better player" simply doesn't work because I could say the same: Mew2King is just a better player. He wins and places more often, thus boosting Meta Knight's results by a big margin.
The same goes for other very talented players like Dojo or Tyrant.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Brawl tournaments:

Again cause this thread moves so fast

 

[The Sauce Boss]

Holy **** the quote in spadefox's sig is so good.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

It's been at 5% in the Pro direction since forever.

Fixed.

Yes keeps going up.

Not like it matters lol

the last polls sure didn't

Makes me rage that we need 2/3s majority.

Has anybody else thought that one "30% handicap" idea was a good idea?

TBH, I m still a little amused by the fact that nobody has even thought about a handicap, or a limitation, or the like. Like MK doesn't get a stage counterpick or ban because he's good everywhere anyways. Or MK gets a 30% handicap for being broken. Lord knows the tools are there to implement any number of different possible handicaps.

 

[Sosuke]

That, compared to characters, Mew2King alone would be the 8th-best character when it comes to tournament results?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165954

M2K is actually ROB irl.
Rob = robot
M2K = robot


It all makes sense.

 

[stingers]

have you seen mew2king? he's not a robot, he's a ****ing pimp.

dude makes mad stacks of cash



...lol

also ban mk, dude's broken

 

[Matador]

Long post

Understand that people are going to use the best character in the game if they want the best possible chance of winning a tournament. That's irrefutable fact. Even if MK weren't as GOOD as he is and he had bad matchups n whatnot, if he still held the coveted spot at the top of the tier list, he would remain highly played.

That's simply how it works, for every competitive game. The "fun" characters or the "visually appealing" characters come afterward. 22% is a bit much, but MK's really ****in good...that's pretty much expected either way.

 

[Grahf]

Errr... I voted Yes on MK ban because I use him in tourney just to piss people off and ONLY Play Melee because Brawl bores me. He is hella **** for a guy that only plays him in tourney then runs off to play Melee.

 

[CaliburChamp]

Its true what spade fox says. In sports they take averages from the players scores, etc. Ankoku's list is nothing like that. To do the right math for it, you would have to take each players score, add it up, and divide it by the number of tournaments they have attended. Then you get the result.

Duh...

The math is called Mean, Median, and Mode. It's used for calculating averages in 3 steps.

 

[MarKO X]

TBH, I m still a little amused by the fact that nobody has even thought about a handicap, or a limitation, or the like. Like MK doesn't get a stage counterpick or ban because he's good everywhere anyways. Or MK gets a 30% handicap for being broken. Lord knows the tools are there to implement any number of different possible handicaps.

A handicap as such against MK pretty much proves what...

 

[DanGR]

We should totally be best buddies on opposite sides of the fence. You can be Magneto, and I'll be Professor X. We can play chess n everything.

Brawl tournaments:
[Insert large chart]
Again cause this thread moves so fast

Pretty good stuff.

How long did it take you?
Did you use Ankoku's data or did you compile everything on your own?

 

[Zolios]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165954

M2K is actually ROB irl.
Rob = robot
M2K = robot


It all makes sense.

Chicks love the robots

 

[Deadweight]

Holy **** the quote in spadefox's sig is so good.

Admitting the game isnt balanced = good
Iloled

 

[Gamegenie222]

have you seen mew2king? he's not a robot, he's a ****ing pimp.

dude makes mad stacks of cash



...lol

also ban mk, dude's broken

that's preety funny.

 

[Tony_]

Brawl statistics:

No. The SF community is bigger. Way bigger. Don't even try to start ****.

 

[Red Arremer]

Admitting the game isnt balanced = good
Iloled

Please show me a perfectly balanced fighting game.

 

[Matador]

No. The SF community is bigger. Way bigger. Don't even try to start ****.

I don't even think that was the point he was trying to make.

 

[Tien2500]

Fixed.



Makes me rage that we need 2/3s majority.



TBH, I m still a little amused by the fact that nobody has even thought about a handicap, or a limitation, or the like. Like MK doesn't get a stage counterpick or ban because he's good everywhere anyways. Or MK gets a 30% handicap for being broken. Lord knows the tools are there to implement any number of different possible handicaps.

If we really need to handicap him then he would probably be banworthy anyway.

 

[Deadweight]

Please show me a perfectly balanced fighting game.

There isnt one.
But there are steps we can take to make it more balanced.
The fact that the person in your quote is openly admitting that MK is a problem, but refusing to deal with it seems contradictory.
When something is broke
You fix it.

 

[SOVAman]

For anyone else that say my sig on GameFAQs

I rather you not use it but if you do

GIVE ME CREDIT

thanks


You are free to steal my avy though

 

[Darth Waffles]

I hope you are aware of the fact that Mew2King alone has made quite a big chunk out of these 22%?
That, compared to characters, Mew2King alone would be the 8th-best character when it comes to tournament results?

Saying "Ally is just a better player" simply doesn't work because I could say the same: Mew2King is just a better player. He wins and places more often, thus boosting Meta Knight's results by a big margin.
The same goes for other very talented players like Dojo or Tyrant.

I'm not sure where you're going with this. Sure, m2k has won a lot, similar to how Anther has probably won "quite a big chunk" of Pikachu's...3% slice? 4%? I'm not saying that "_____ is a better player." In fact, by saying how I don't think (Player) > metaknight is a valid argument, I just discourage that argument.

In such a controversial topic, I'm OK if that's the most people can argue about my post =).

Anyway, theory > tourney results. It's sad, but true. If Ally went Falcon and played m2k's Metaknight in 11 tournaments, one of two things would happen- either he would win or lose. Obvious enough. If he wins more, does that mean MK shouldn't be banned because Falcon > MK? Of course not. That's all I was pointing out about the whole (player) > MK thing. If he loses more, that won't help MK get banned or unbanned any more than if he had won more.

 

[Red Arremer]

There isnt one.
But there are steps we can take to make it more balanced.
The fact that the person in your quote is openly admitting that MK is a problem, but refusing to deal with it seems contradictory.
When something is broke
You fix it.

He was saying this because Meta Knight is a Top Tier character. Top Tier character usually have the traits of having more good matchups than characters below them. They also usually have the traits of being generally good.

 

[Azuzu]

Please show me a perfectly balanced fighting game.

Pretty funny considering your sig was a comment directed at me, that was then refuted 2 posts later as being extremely flawed.

I know this thread has moved a TON since our debate yesterday, but you didn't go back and read my post by any chance did you? (The one after I "lost my credibility", which is funny, because I didn't think I had any to start with as an unknown, mediocre at best player )

 

[Tony_]

I don't even think that was the point he was trying to make.

Oh the point he was trying to make was clear as day to me.

He's trying to say the Smash community is more active than the SF community, which is fairly false.

 

[Red Arremer]

I'm not sure where you're going with this.

I'm saying this because out of those 22%, a big chunk has been taken by Mew2King. That his results would look less "vicious" if you took off Mew2King's results.
That's why I'm saying.

 

[fkacyan]

Anyway, theory > tourney results

What are you smoking?

Like, seriously, here, that has to be the stupidest thing I've read today, and I've been on /v/.

Why don't you go tell this to the scientific community, see how that goes.

 

[ShadowLink84]

You can say that about ANYONE!

no you cannot. For one, you are completely ignoring what you pointed out. He is a wario that beats KM.
So obviously he must have his reasons, also, he has shown himself to be very knowledgeable. The fac thtta you are automaticaly assuming he wants to do it for his own benefit, only makes you look worse.
Ninjalink beats MK's, he thinks MK should be banned (corrct me if I am wrong here). The same for several other people who beat MK's.

Anyone can train themselves to focus beating on one character.

Ganondorf, falcon, luigi, samus.
Name people wh beat high level MK's.

You can train a Diddy or Snake etc, to **** an MK, by playing the match up alot.

but you can';t train an MK to **** the diddy/snake/

I am sorry does m2k vs NL not ring a bell.
When NL faced m2k afterwards he lost. It is simple as that.

most Snakes lose and only Ally as managed to truly win and be very consistent.

I'm not talking out of my ***,

Course not, you
You are assuming anyone who is not anti ban wants MK banned for personal reasons wich is an illogical and baseless assumption.

and I don't have anything against Fiction, I just don't agree with him,

You just said you found it really stupid how someone who beats MK's wants him banned and wants him banned for his own reasons.

Like really?
Amazing

and just because he is knowledgeable and skilled doesn't mean he's right about everything! [/quote
Stop strawmanning, no one ever said such a thing. I am attacking the fact that you are drawing foolish conclusions about someone based on them being pro ban even though they beat he character.

No one is perfect.

Where did I say he was.

I can't believe you SL, this has to be the dumbest post I've ever seen from you.

Are you kidding me? This has to be the most ignorant post I have heard from you.
Let alone you un off on different angents that had nothing to do with my criticism of you.

What are you smoking?

Like, seriously, here, that has to be the stupidest thing I've read today, and I've been on /v/.

Why don't you go tell this to the scientific community, see how that goes.

The scientific community would slap you both for being silly.

Scientific community uses theory, supportable theory. Not theory by definition as you are using it.

 

[gantrain05]

when you have the chance to fix something and don't that really confuses me. MK is obviously broken, you can't deny that, the mere fact that you absolutely cannot CP him is enough to warrant a ban imo. i don't care about if he's beatable, i don't care if ally beats M2K, none of that means anything. but seriously, just because MK ONLY has most of his matchups 60/40 doesn't mean he isn't broken, an advantage is an advantage, and when you can't CP a stage or character there is something wrong.

 

[UberMario]

Anyway, theory > tourney results. It's sad, but true. If Ally went Falcon and played m2k's Metaknight in 11 tournaments, one of two things would happen- either he would win or lose. Obvious enough. If he wins more, does that mean MK shouldn't be banned because Falcon > MK? Of course not.

Your logic is unphathomably corrupt.

when you have the chance to fix something and don't that really confuses me. MK is obviously broken, you can't deny that, the mere fact that you absolutely cannot CP him is enough to warrant a ban imo. i don't care about if he's beatable, i don't care if ally beats M2K, none of that means anything. but seriously, just because MK ONLY has most of his matchups 60/40 doesn't mean he isn't broken, an advantage is an advantage, and when you can't CP a stage or character there is something wrong.

Who says you can't counterpick him? And also if he was broken, he would be unbeatable in top level matches. If the best meta-knight in the world isn't the best player, does that not mean meta-knight must not be broken?

 

[Darth Waffles]

Why don't you go tell this to the scientific community, see how that goes.

Whoops, didn't realize that everything from Brawl transferred directly over to the "scientific community"

If tourney results were as important as you flame it out to be, erm, I mean make it out to be, then Ankoku's chart would be the tier list.

Thanks for flaming me and not backing it up though

So Ubermario, you fail on two accounts

1) unphathom? Try F instead of ph
2) What about that is wrong? Are you seriously saying that if Ally's CF beat m2k's MK then MK wouldn't be banned or that CF would?