Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

[Red Arremer]

Obviously not, but at least a little transparency and accepting of input on different issues would be better than the "secret club" way they do things now.

God, not this god**** discussion again.

We've had this in every discussion when the SBR is trying to make contact with the public in the past.

It's not we're isolating ourselves from outside input, you know. Suggestions of players outside of the SBR have been discussed, and we're getting our information from the public, too.

 

[Matador]

People can beat MK, do beat MK, and have beat MK. Are you saying that the pro-ban side has no good arguments because that's true? I think there are good arguments on both sides.

On the contrary, the argument that Ryko presented is actually one that I hadn't considered and partially identify with. Even if people CAN beat MK, he still limits diversity and ultimately harms the game. I suppose that's what makes this an odd issue.

Remove the poison since it's slowly corroding the body, or keep the poison and allow the body to adapt and be stronger for it.

The pro-ban side is arguing that more and more people are going to pick MK as a result of him having no bad matchups, essentially. Well, at least I am. That destroys diversity. I, apart from a lot of pro-ban advocates, think we have rather good diversity at the moment. I feel very strongly that it will NOT stay this way though.

When you look at it that way, yes, banning MK would allow those with MK as a roadblock to do better. I don't see a problem with that if it means having a healthy game with at least as much diversity as a game like Melee or SF3. Brawl isn't headed in that direction though.

The way it's going, you're right. That just seems to be a community weakness though.

We coin the phrase "play to win" and recite Sirlin like the Holy Bible, but when MK starts dominating and becomes overplayed, we cry ban. When IC/D3 players infinite the **** out of you, you can't help but to think things need to be changed for the sake of balance and fairness. That doesn't seem right to me.

This isn't important to the Meta Knight debate, but if you're referring to MikeHaze's set versus M2K at Evo, I'd like to point out that at least a few top players and intelligent individuals have noted that M2K plays the matchup completely wrong. Also, Holy has recently stated that he's having a lot of trouble fighting the Meta Knight players in his area now after they're learning the matchup.

I actually didn't even know MikeHAZE played M2K. I was simply referring to the hordes of MKs players like Neo, Boss, Reflex, MikeHAZE, Holy, etc. must face on the way to their top spots. Even if MikeHAZE DID beat M2K/Dojo, at the top of the metagame things like that don't even matter anymore. Sure, Marth has a hard time vs MK, but I'm not going to tell you that Dojo and M2K both being amazing players had anything less than 90% of why they win.

It's much more down to the player than anything at that point. That's why players like Azen and Ninjalink are allowed to thrive in tourneys.

 

[Renegade TX2000]

... I don't care anymore keep mk in the game "sigh" just keep him in the game all i know is I'll be having a new main

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

Yes but you cannot ask everyone, some melee players have voted yes just to get m2k back into melee. There needs to be like you must have attended atleast one national tournament or are active in the tournament scene to vote.

 

[Brinzy]

I'll be honest - I'm pretty much borderline on this, slightly leaning towards anti-ban. There are good reasons to ban him, and there are good reasons to not ban him. I dunno, maybe it'll come in time...

 

[K@0S]

Now the question is : how many people vote Yes only because they would have less bad match-ups and not because they think MK warrants a ban ? I guess it's far more people than those who vote No only because MK is their main.

Almost all pro-ban arguments are biased. Imbalanced recovery ? GW has a better one and is better at planking.

22% ? Call that a dominance for the best character that people want to ban =/.

Mid tier would become viable ? As if MK was the one who makes it unviable. MK is like a better version of Marth, a lot of even/little advantage match-up, almost no **** match-up. DDD and G&W do it better.

No bad match-up ? That's a bit subjective as some people think that Snake or Diddy can become counters (I don't think so myself, I'm just pointing this out) and anyway it's not a ban criteria. A character with only 5/5 match-ups is less bannable than a character with only 9/1 match-ups except one with 4/6. And MK has several even match-ups.

It's kind of scary how brawl is the only game in which the community reacts this way. People don't realize how ridiculous we look for players of other fighting games.

 

[MarKO X]

... I don't care anymore keep mk in the game "sigh" just keep him in the game all i know is I'll be having a new main

That's called playing to win.

 

[fkacyan]

God, not this god**** discussion again.

We've had this in every discussion when the SBR is trying to make contact with the public in the past.

It's not we're isolating ourselves from outside input, you know. Suggestions of players outside of the SBR have been discussed, and we're getting our information from the public, too.

The issue is we don't know when this is happening, or what input goes in. For those posters who are never brought up in the SBR, it is impossible to tell how they should be brought up, or what makes the posters who ARE referenced useful to the discussions there.

It's essentially a problem with too many variables to solve.

 

[SOVAman]

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No one can say they dont love at least one person on this list

GO PRO BAN

 

[bobson]

It's not we're isolating ourselves from outside input, you know. Suggestions of players outside of the SBR have been discussed, and we're getting our information from the public, too.

From a random user's perspective, there's no evidence of this. I've never seen the SBR ask for input for anything other than controversial ban issues (which pretty much inevitably end with them doing a poll or something and then saying "LOL NO, WERE YOU ACTUALLY SERIOUS ABOUT BANNING THAT?"), and requests for clarification on rulesets and things like stage bans are usually straight up ignored.

It may be true that you give our opinions some weight, but our side isn't really seeing it. All we see is judgements.

 

[jbandrew]

Now the question is : how many people vote Yes only because they would have less bad match-ups and not because they think MK warrants a ban ? I guess it's far more people than those who vote No only because MK is their main.

Almost all pro-ban arguments are biased. Imbalanced recovery ? GW has a better one and is better at planking.

22% ? Call that a dominance for the best character that people want to ban =/.

Mid tier would become viable ? As if MK was the one who makes it unviable. MK is like a better version of Marth, a lot of even/little advantage match-up, almost no **** match-up. DDD and G&W do it better.

No bad match-up ? That's a bit subjective as some people think that Snake or Diddy can become counters (I don't think so myself, I'm just pointing this out) and anyway it's not a ban criteria. A character with only 5/5 match-ups is less bannable than a character with only 9/1 match-ups except one with 4/6. And MK has several even match-ups.

It's kind of scary how brawl is the only game in which the community reacts this way. People don't realize how ridiculous we look for players of other fighting games.

GAW does NOT have a better recovery than MK.

GAW can NOT plank better than MK.

Pro Ban arguments aren't biased..., hell ALL arguments are biased because arguments if not 100% factual are merely opinion. I can say that anti-ban's arguments are biased then

 

[Red Arremer]

From a random user's perspective, there's no evidence of this. I've never seen the SBR ask for input for anything other than controversial ban issues (which pretty much inevitably end with them doing a poll or something and then saying "LOL NO, WERE YOU ACTUALLY SERIOUS ABOUT BANNING THAT?"), and requests for clarification on rulesets and things like stage bans are usually straight up ignored.

It may be true that you give our opinions some weight, but our side isn't really seeing it.

Uh, what?

We're not having our own character forums, tournament discussion and such back there, you know.

So, in order to make you feel better, the next time I will research some information on a character or ask a question in a character board, I'll be sure to include a "Oh, and if the point should be important somehow in the SBR, I will use this information in my argument!".
I mean, seriously?

As for the past polls, I think I've said already that these polls were not an absolute poll for banning MEta Knight, but rather to see where the community stands.
Implying we just put up strawman polls to make it look like we're actually doing something is pretty **** idiotic, sorry.

 

['V']

Seriously.. This did not need a 4th poll..

 

[tocador]

!Callum!, $BONE$, $Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$, オビ (Obi), ***Skippo***, **Havok**, *Poe, *Tw!st3r*, *_Echo_*, -Aura-, -Hilt-, -Jamez-, -Linko-, -MERO-, .PNOY., .Smoreking., 0kin, 0mega 75, 0megaZer0, 0RLy, 1048576, 12 Pack, 1337PGN, 2.72, 2nLio, 3des, 4nace, 4RCE, 718_ROOKI3, 8-Bit., A good smash, a male platypus, A1lion835, A2ZOMG, ACDCefg, Acedude55, Aceplayer, Acex27, Acherontic, Action Jackson, Ademar440, Adetque, Admiral Bowser, Adurna Nagra, Advance, AE-77, aeghrur, Aeramis, Aesir, Afropony, Afterburn, AgeNtGZuS, Aggression, aish, Aiuyu, ajuice14, Alessandra, AlexoftheAura, Almo, Alphican, Al_Di_Medola, Ambrose, andilex, Anonano, Anth0ny, Anubis Ocelot, aqua421, Aqua4ever, Arcadia15x, Arc_Revived, ArgentStew, Arkanj0, Arturito_Burrito, arwildcats09, Aryman, asc853, ASF1nk, Ashraf23, asob4, ATeeU05, Atobe, Atomic Yoshi, AtotheZ, auroreon, AvariceX, Awesome Turtwig, Awex, AWSM!, Ax00x0, Ayen, azila123, AzNfinesse, Aznpkilla, Azuzu, B0NK, BacklashMarth, Backpaw, Backward, Bacons, 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O. F., pAce, paco27291, Padô, Paja, Papi24, ParanoidDrone, PassWurD, pastaboy, Patrack, Pegachris, Pegasus Knight, PentaSalia, PenUmbra, PeppyWil, phazermuffin, Pheonix, Phillyrider807, Philmaster, Pho, Phoenix~Lament, PieDisliker, PieM4ster, PikaPika!, Pika_Cam, Pitchshifter, piZ, PJGLZ, PKNintendo, Plan 9, Plasma Pikmin, platiepoos, Pleather, Pluh, po pimpus, Poehlcat, pokemonmaster123, PokemonMasterIRL, PolarJunkie, Polish Gerbils, PolMex23, Poltergust, PoPe., Popertop, popsofctown, POPS_44, PortCity, PowerBomb, Praxis, Professor Pro, proteininja, PsychicPhysx, Psyflame, psykoplympton, Puddin, Puffball64, PurityX, Pyronic_Star, P_wii, Qckpy01, quadz08, QueWhatHuh, Quinn, raidenmang, raidos, Raikou_Cypher, Rain the Link Main, randomguy90, Rarevolutionary, Ratman, Ravel, Razek, Razmakazi, rebnave, Recoil, RedC, RedHalberd, redInvader, RedyBz, ReesesPieces67, refugee, Rejex, rel12, Rena22, Renegade TX2000, Revan Skywalker, Rhubarbo, Rich Wheeler, RichBrown, RickShaw626, Riickable, riocosta123, Rion, Ripple, RocketPSIence, Rockettrainer, Rockmix, Rod., rodi, rofljont, RoflWafflez, Rogue, RoK_the_Reaper, rolrctermaniac, Rorar, Roxaslawliet, RoyTheFlamboyant, RPGsFTW, RprShadow, Rudementry, rugoodat, ruin`, Runawayfire, Rust, rvkevin, Rykoshet, Ryos4, Ryoto, Ryu-u, S.K.I.D, S.O.L.I.D., SA3Tony, Sada, sagemoon, sai90, Saiga, Sakurai_Hates_Elites, salaboB, Salty-28, samsonites101, san3711, sand8, Sanuzi, Sars_Pirate, sasook, sasukebowser, saxxon, Scala, Schism, Scidadle, Scipion121212, scoobysnax, Scrubs, Scythe, sd462, Seanson, Sebastian S, Secondary, selendrile, Serpex, Serris, Seterian, Seton, Shade_, Shadic, ShadoFiend, Shadowblazen, Shadowbot, shadowdsfire, ShadowHero1991, ShadowNovan, shadowtroop, Shady Penguin, ShadyGT, Shaeman111, ShANk, Shao Huo, shapular, Sharkz, Shinku, shinyspoon42, Shiri, shlike, shotOgrace, Shugo-Chan, shumaru, SiegKnight, Silhouette, SilverBlaze, SilverSpark, SilverX, singNstache711, Sinz, Sixth Finger, SK92, Skater Trainer, Skazryk, Skinutski, skitts, SkylerOcon, slader7, Slashy, SlayerOfMe, Slice~, Slick227, slikvik, Sliraobe God, sluys, SmAsH-T3r, Smash311, SmashBro99, SmashBrother2008, smashplaya, Smash_Gigas, sMexy-Blu, Smiley_Bob, Smith, Smoke., Smoom, SnaKKer, sneakytako, SniperNightOwlFromYoutube, SnowballBob33, soloSHADOWROB, Some_Kind_of_JokÈ?, Sonic The Hedgedawg, Sonicandtails, Sonicario, SonicLucario, Soren., Spade1, SpadeHand, Sparta Kick, SpartanX123, SPAWN, Spelt, Spire III, Spoonbob, Spudman, spudzalot, Sr. P & R, SSBBChess, ssbbFICTION, stabbedbyanipple, StaFu, Stannum, star214wolf, Starking, StarWaffle, StarWolf234, StarYoshi14, stealth3654, Steel2nd, stefanie, Stiltzskin, StinkomanFan, Stitch_Kun, stnapknah, stoopdklutz, strike42, Stryks, Sudai, SugarShiek33, Sulfur, Sumer, SummonerAU, SUNG475, Super Glenn, Super Mario MC, superangelo128, SuPeRbOoM, superkid, supermario27mx, Supermodel From Paris, SuperSonicRacin, Suyon, SwallowFury, Swordplay, SwordSaint892, SwordsRbroken, Systalis, T F S, takeurlife2, TantalusIX, tapeba, tareth, Tatsuman, tcranter, Technodeath, TEECO, TeeVee, Teh Brettster, Tekk, tekkie, Teleq, TemPesT-, Teneban, Tennet, Tenor, Tensa_Zetta, TGM, ThaRoy, ThatAintTripping, The Brigand, The Director, The Dust, The Foot, The Overlord, The Pope, the roflz, The S Word, The wrath of Koarin, The-Truth, The740, theAPExp, thebadnewsbear06, TheBlueBlade, thebokkie, TheBuzzSaw, TheCubeStud, theeboredone, TheFanFan, TheGreatBo, TheJesus, Themann, TheOgbot, TheReflexWonder, thesage, TheSilenceOfNoOne, TheSkullFer, TheTantalus, TheTigerKing, theultimodragon, TheVince, The_Bear735, Thibault, Thirtyfour, Throwback, thumbswayup, Thunder Of Zeus, Thunderbolt333, Tidussquall10x, Tien2500, Tillyisfat, timi, timssu, Tin Man, tirkaro, TJgamer, TKD, TKD+ITA+Mar=, TLMSheikant, TlocCPU, toazex, toobusytocare, Toph87, TOPIX, TraX!, Trela, Trio3, Tristan_win, TruBlu, tsunami70875, Tudor, TUSM, Twilight Prince, TwilightFan234, Twilightlink421, TWiNKatGC, Typh, Tyranitarphantom, Ugg, Ulti, undead_saint, unfraggable1, unsung-unit2291, Ussi, uzimakisensai, v0id1337, Vain, Valdens, Vanill4, vato_break, Vex514, Vickey, Victra, VietGeek, VinceX, Viquey, Vorguen, VysetheLegend, WarpStatus, Watkins, WaTT, wazgood, weinzey, Wes., WhalesOnStilts, WhyBooger???, will2294, Wolf of Ice, Wolf Pup TK, Wolfang, WolfChant, WolfenMiatang, Wrek FTW, x After Dawn x, xDarkZhaox, xDD-Master, xDeadmanx, XeroFaith, xEvann, xfacta, xMPDx, Xonar, XquiZiTX8X, Xsyven, Xtror, Xyless, Xyro77, Y.b.M., yami_sora, Yankee, Yannick, yeksson, Yeti888, Yingyay, Yomon, yoshi934785, yoshiaaf, yoshididdy, YoshiPro03, yoshq, Young Deezy, Yubi, Yukiwarashi, yummynbeefy, YUNq PHR3$H, yysu, Z-Striker, z3r0C0oL, ZACKK, Zappychu, Zarenthye, Zawarudo, zCasanova, Zeni, ZenTega, Zenthewanderer, ZeonStar, Zephil, Zephramrill, Zephron, zeriph, zero7980, ZeroDreams, Zero_, Zerxion, zeuskees, ZMan, ZOM~B, ZSNeji, _fenrir_, _Pope_, _xXGogetaXx_, __crystal____, ~AceR~, ~automatic, ~mjg~, ~ZIO~

No one can say they dont love at least one person on this list

GO PRO BAN

OMGOSH, REFLEX VOTED PRO BAN!!!!

Im so pro ban now.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Oh really? Falco's pillar combos (which work regardless of DI) rack an easy 45+% on any stage, and leave Fox in a terrible position (being tech chased) for a very good chance of tacking on an additional 30%+. This same combo sequence (dair->shine->stuff based on their DI) also doubles as a reliable approach.

Fox's shine alone places him ina position where he can easily chase Falco off stage and go for an easy edge guard. The damage output isn't necessarily the main issue.

Fox's combo's allow him to place Falco in terrible situations that usually result in low percentage kills. WHere as Falco's tends to increase damage output rather than outright killing.

Considering the fact that Fox is a faster character overall, he is more capable at landing his combos than Falco.

You're forgetting that Falco is also firing lasers to limit Fox's mobility. So while for is NORMALLY more mobile than Falco an hope to be, in this matchup it's easily debatable.

Except for the fact that a proficient plyer can power shield those projectiles.
Its an absolute ***** to deal with someone who is proficient at powershielding because of the fact that it hurts Falco's ability to use his projectiles.

Plus its sort of like dealing with Sonic, Falco cannot really use his lasers as much as he likes due to Fox's superior movement ability.

Watch someone like Lambchops who LOCKS DOWN even some of the best Fox players and you'll see what I mean. Against a good Falco, Fox reverts to playing defensively and trying to counter Falco's approach options and shield pressure, while Falco is the one free to play movement games with edgecancels and whatnot.

Sorry whenyou said lambchop i felt hungry.

I am also ahving problems finding videos of lambchop vs. people like m2k. O any other foxes for some reason. Can you provide ome videos so I have a better idea on it?

Actually, I'd dare say that Falco has safer recovery options than Fox in this matchup (provided that he's close enough to make use of them, which with good DI is very likely). Face it, up B is bad for both of them, so let's not even consider it. Now, looking at their second jumps, Falco's goes higher (allowing him more flexibility in when he can do it). Fox's side B goes much farther, but also has more startup than Falco's. Falco is also heavier than Fox, and thus won't be going as far from individual attacks.

Woah no way. Fox's down B while having greater stat up is twice the distance of Falco's ^B. Becaus eof this, getting a low percent kill on Fox is harder than it seems.

Falco's sie B is faster, that doesn't mean much. The trajectory of the move is extremely predictable and fox has the tools to easily deal with him. Even on stages with platforms Fox has more than enough movement to quickly edge guard Falco.
Compounded with his shine's trajectory Falco dies more quickly and is more vulnerable to edge guarding than Fox.

Falco's is heavier yes, but he is still a fast faller which impacts on his high second jump and his heavier weight. Its nt hardat all to predict Falco's recovery and then kill him early for it.

He's not killing Falco at 90% <_<. DI much?

Eh it was an estimate. Even with DI Falco dies seemingly early to the Usmash.

Plus if you'r sent off the side, its very easy toe dge guard Falco and kill

I feel that you are severely underestimating Falco's combo game and laser game.

I can't help that, Ia m naturally pessimistic towards my main.

Fullhop double lasers can cover pretty much any height,

fullhop does not cover much against Fox due to his high falling speed.
The rate of fire for the lasers is not enugh to cover Fox's mobility. So even though Falco certainly can reach any height Fox will and greater, unlss Fox is off stage and recovering, fullhop DL's dont do much. Naturally one would stick to SH lasers since its faster, safer, and lets you combo more easily. Plus you can deal with any powershielding and shines that may occur in retaliation to a laser.

lasering when coming off of platforms or double jumping into lasers, Falco can cover EVERY spot on the screen with a laser using some method. Fighting Falcos who are particularly skilled at such actions (like Lambchops) you simply CAN'T move around the lasers. The match becomes more about what you do when you shield a laser or get hit by it, rather than moving around them.

THe problem being that fullshop lasers cover two narrow points during the fullhop.
full hop triple covers the peak and lower part of the jump with the third hitting groud level.
You can adjust and fire two lasers during the fullhop to increase the likely hood of a hit, but Fox's fast falling ability is the same as Falco's making it difficult for him to simply lock him in place.

And yet doesn't the Fox have this knowledge as well? The simple solution to knowing your opponent would attempt to powershield is to simply wait next to them until you see a shield or other action. Unless it's a Falco, every option they have can be recognized on the first frame, and either shined one frame later for attacks, rolls, or spotdodges, or 4 frames later for shielding

but why would he get next to their shield? Most characters would attempt to space away fro Fox especially a character like Marth. So it really ends up a guessing game regardless because Fox would attempt to get close for the shine while the other wold attempt to space.

Multishining, not waveshining. Fox is jump canceling his shine into another shine, which takes a total of 5 frames. Marth's jump takes 5 frames as well (where his shield is down), so he will get hit on the same frame he goes airborne.

Shield the first shine then powershield the next one.
Since anything else Fox would use would be powershielded.
So either Fox shines again in an attempt to lock down the opponent which results in a prediction and powershield, or he simply jump cancels away from the character.

Frame data=god mod XD

 

[salaboB]

That's called playing to win.

I'd guess that at least 90% of the people who quote Sirlin here and say you should play to win have no clue what they're supporting.

 

[bobson]

So, in order to make you feel better, the next time I will research some information on a character or ask a question in a character board, I'll be sure to include a "Oh, and if the point should be important somehow in the SBR, I will use this information in my argument!".
I mean, seriously?

Or you could, y'know, implement some transparency, so we actually know a little bit of whatever the hell is going on back there.

 

[Red Arremer]

Or you could, y'know, implement some transparency, so we actually know a little bit of whatever the hell is going on back there.

We have had this discussion in the last Meta Knight thread, in the tier list thread, and I think in a few other threads.
Stop bringing it up all the time again.

Also:

As for the past polls, I think I've said already that these polls were not an absolute poll for banning MEta Knight, but rather to see where the community stands.
Implying we just put up strawman polls to make it look like we're actually doing something is pretty **** idiotic, sorry.

 

[T0MMY]

The community isn't together enough to ban stalling, which is more important than banning a better-than-average non-broken character. Even if 100% were yes nobody could get together well enough to do it X^D

But, seriously, if Fox wasn't banned in Melee then there's no reason to ban MK. Especially when the tournament wins for the character are very low (I'll speak on behalf of west coast where WA has Toon Link/G&W dominating events, OR has R.O.B. winning every event, NorCal has Snake, NV has Falco, and finally SoCal has Marth... though kudos to Rich Brown's Olimar beating all the MKs as well).

I'd place higher if MK was banned, but I'm not letting personal profit get in the way of an honest vote. I step it up and beat MKs in tourney with R.O.B., which is a 40/60 disadvantage, which is a lot easier than the Pichu matchups I had to play in Melee.
Either tough it out or use MK (oh that's right, that's what people tried and it didn't work out for them).

 

[bobson]

We have had this discussion in the last Meta Knight thread, in the tier list thread, and I think in a few other threads.
Stop bringing it up all the time again.

Well, since you have assured me that you value community input, I'm sure that you all are actually considering changing some things on these notes, right?

As for the past polls, I think I've said already that these polls were not an absolute poll for banning MEta Knight, but rather to see where the community stands.
Implying we just put up strawman polls to make it look like we're actually doing something is pretty **** idiotic, sorry.

Have you ever been in politics? Putting up polls or asking questions to make the constituency feel better without ever doing anything is pretty standard.

 

[Falconv1.0]

lawl lil b is so ****ing cute. hurr hurr

Too bad Sky is anti ban. Yeah, I went there.

 

[Red Arremer]

Well, since you have assured me that you value community input, I'm sure that you all are actually considering changing some things on these notes, right?

I personally will not stand for it because I'm EXTREMELY against making the SBR viewable by the public.
If you want to see my arguments - and those of others (including people NOT in the SBR), go search for the discussions in those threads. I will not discuss this matter any further.

Have you ever been in politics? Putting up polls or asking questions to make the constituency feel better without ever doing anything is pretty standard.

THE PAST POLLS HAVE BEEN MADE TO SEE WHERE THE COMMUNITY STANDS NOTHING ELSE

Is it so hard to understand?!

 

[MarKO X]

I'd guess that at least 90% of the people who quote Sirlin here and say you should play to win have no clue what they're supporting.

playing to win is doing everything within your power and the given rules to win.
don't be nice, don't worry about honor, etc. if it will get you the win, go for it.

picking up the best character in the game because your character isn't cutting it is called playing to win.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGh4ZU4H5Hk

edit: I love the Wall of Text War between Shadowlink and Dark Sonic. Like, I'm actually reading it.

 

[CR4SH]

I honestly don't know how Falco beats air-camping. That's the thing. It sounds like you're acting like you do because of this one match, where the tactic hasn't been extensively tested to get past. I'll be honest, he probably doesn't, but does that mean that DEHF was playing at his smartest?

Theorybrawl with me. What options does falco have against MK doing this on a stage not named FD (also not named japes). Uair? failure. DJ lazer? Fail. Boost smash? lol. Maybe he could jump up onto a different platform for a higher vantage to shoot lazers. None of these options don't get you hit.

 

[Player 7]

Most top players that want mk to be banned in the US want it because THEY can't beat the top MK players (with a few exceptions like ally). We have already saw Snakes(ally) , Diddy Kongs (ninjalink), Warios (fiction), Marths (mikehaze), Falcos (SK92 and DEHF) beating top metaknights. My point is that players like Fiction who say that mk has to be banned just say that because M2K, Tyrant, Dojo are just better than him, and not mk better than Wario. Just be like Ally, train and WIN, don't just complain like that.
I vote NO to mk be banned

 

[bobson]

Is it so hard to understand?!

I was replying primarily to "Implying we just put up strawman polls to make it look like we're actually doing something is pretty **** idiotic, sorry."
It's not too big of a stretch to assume that when the outcomes of all the polls (including the ones unrelated to Metaknight) are typically the same and the eventual decision by the SBR is the same in every instance.

 

[Matador]

Or you could, y'know, implement some transparency, so we actually know a little bit of whatever the hell is going on back there.

Dude. As someone who voluntarily left the SBR, I'm telling you - it's not worth it. Intelligent discussion does not take place. Many people there seem like their lifetime goal is to either derail discussion or halt any progress whatsoever that doesn't coincide with things they already believe, like Overswarm and those who would happily fellate him for his point of view. It's a good thing he isn't in charge of the place anymore but honestly, it's the same arguments about the unsolvable fundamental problems with Brawl and Brawl tournaments cycling over and over and over until the apocalypse. It's a mind**** in there. At least in the boards you aren't surrounded by people who have any reason to feel elitist, so it's easier to ignore the stupid people.

You. Are. Not. Missing. Out.

Watch like 5 ppl from the SBR come in to try to dispute this, because they don't want their lack of credibility to be exposed.

Let me get this straight to you again. There are many people back there who are amazing at this game and know what they're doing.

But the place sucks. You want to know what all of the pros have to think about a certain high level matchup? Well too bad, because people do not go in depth on matchups there. You want to try bringing it up? Get told by ****in everybody that the only way you can be an expert on some matchup is to main one of the characters, and that no-one else in the room can do so either. So no indepth matchup analysis for you. Constructive threads are not made in the SBR. They would rather argue over the best set of rules for the community, how much influence the SBR should have over the community, whether certain gay tactic in Brawl should be limited or banned, or how to ban/what to do, if anything, against Metaknight, the counterpick system, or MK within the CP system.

It's a depressing place to be. Stay outside where there's some fresh air at least.

lol, Kyari's outlook on SBR as an EX-member. A real eye-opener if this is what it's like.

 

[dextasmurf]

Something i heard: "this game was not made to be a tournement type of game as melee was. That is y tripping was put in place..It makes little kids laugh and pro gamerz pissed. nintendo made Brawl more "friendly" just as the wii is more friendly..More money in there pockets. IF brawl was straight competitive then it would not of sold as much as it did imo..

I EVEN once heard that Mk's tornado was suppose to do 30% originally :/

 

[ShadowLink84]

Most top players that want mk to be banned in the US want it because THEY can't beat the top MK players (with a few exceptions like ally). We have already saw Snakes(ally) , Diddy Kongs (ninjalink), Warios (fiction), Marths (mikehaze), Falcos (SK92 and DEHF) beating top metaknights. My point is that players like Fiction who say that mk has to be banned just say that because M2K, Tyrant are just better than him, and not mk better than wario. Just be like Ally, train and WIN, don't just complain like that.
I vote NO to mk be banned

THats all I need to point out.
btw those players lose out to those MK palyers than win btw

 

[gantrain05]

Most top players that want mk to be banned in the US want it because THEY can't beat the top MK players (with a few exceptions like ally). We have already saw Snakes(ally) , Diddy Kongs (ninjalink), Warios (fiction), Marths (mikehaze), Falcos (SK92 and DEHF) beating top metaknights. My point is that players like Fiction who say that mk has to be banned just say that because M2K, Tyrant are just better than him, and not mk better than wario. Just be like Ally, train and WIN, don't just complain like that.
I vote NO to mk be banned

i don't think you can speak for the majority of the voters who are pro-ban, do you really know the reason why i PERSONALLY want him banned? its because he breaks the CP system, you can't CP him with a char or stage, fox could be CP'd, every top tier in melee could be, but MK really can't. i don't ***** because i can't beat him, because i can. Doesnt change the fact that i still think he's broken as hell.

 

[jbandrew]

i don't think you can speak for the majority of the voters who are pro-ban, do you really know the reason why i PERSONALLY want him banned? its because he breaks the CP system, you can't CP him with a char or stage, fox could be CP'd, every top tier in melee could be, but MK really can't. i don't ***** because i can't beat him, because i can. Doesnt change the fact that i still think he's broken as hell.

this ^ truth.

10truths.

 

[kozimoto]

LOL so hard at almost 70 pages...There'll probably be like ten posts before I get even this short pointless post out...lol

I don't care if I get flamed for this. Whatever. I honestly believe Snake, that's right...SNAKE! is the best character in the game. I'm not saying right now, but I see him and MK as just about as good right now. What's Metaknight going to improve? Spacing more? What's Snake going to improve? Anything he wants. He's got an entire moveset that even Ally hasn't set in to full potential. This sounds stupid, but I'll redirect people to this post in a year when Snake is about to be banned.


~Fino
(not really...)

EDIT: It was 9 posts. Was so close...

I'm so with you on this one. I don't even no how to explain it. But I can honestly 100% agree with you

 

[Red Arremer]

It's not too big of a stretch to assume that when the outcomes of all the polls (including the ones unrelated to Metaknight) are typically the same

Only a slight tip towards Pro-Ban, yes.

and the eventual decision by the SBR is the same in every instance.

Because the public poll was there in order to see Where. The. Public. Stands.

The Polls had no influence on the SBR's decision whatsoever, it was so that we would see Where. The. Public. Stands.

If 90% of the public would be in favour of the ban (or favouring not to ban him), then this would've caused some other results and a more indepth discussion about the meaning of these heavily tilted results.
But since it ALWAYS was close to 50:50 (usually 5-7% more for Pro-ban), it didn't cause much discussion, since the public was and is just as torn as the SBR.

It's nothing surprising if you just use common sense.

 

[JOE!]

I'm so with you on this one. I don't even no how to explain it. But I can honestly 100% agree with you

Snake isnt as good, he has a far worse recovery, and can be CPed.

 

[MarKO X]

hmmm... with kyari's post there...

am i safe to assume that if the SBR didn't exist, MK would be banned because no one would have thought about the ledge count rule until after it became a problem with other characters?

hell, if the SBR didn't exist, am I safe to assume anything?

 

[Brinzy]

Have you ever been in politics? Putting up polls or asking questions to make the constituency feel better without ever doing anything is pretty standard.

Cool, and why does this matter again?

 

[Red Arremer]

lol, Kyari's outlook on SBR as an EX-member. A real eye-opener if this is what it's like.

Being in the SBR RIGHT NOW, I cannot share these statements he makes, and I'm totally not lying.
Also, read the full blog, please.

Kyari was just pissed off because he was thinking the SBR is a character forum. Which it isn't.

 

[*_Echo_*]

Snake isnt as good, he has a far worse recovery, and can be CPed.

true and because he can be CPed he shouldnt be banned

 

[Eddie G]

Most top players that want mk to be banned in the US want it because THEY can't beat the top MK players (with a few exceptions like ally). We have already saw Snakes(ally) , Diddy Kongs (ninjalink), Warios (fiction), Marths (mikehaze), Falcos (SK92 and DEHF) beating top metaknights. My point is that players like Fiction who say that mk has to be banned just say that because M2K, Tyrant, Dojo are just better than him, and not mk better than Wario. Just be like Ally, train and WIN, don't just complain like that.
I vote NO to mk be banned

Wow, way to speak for people who you absolutely do not share the same perspective with. You really don't know what the **** you're talking about.

 

[Matador]

Being in the SBR RIGHT NOW, I cannot share these statements he makes, and I'm totally not lying.
Also, read the full blog, please.

Kyari was just pissed off because he was thinking the SBR is a character forum. Which it isn't.

Hey, If that's not what it's like, then that's not what it's like.

Lord knows none of us have a ****in clue what goes on in there. If a blind man sees the color green for the first time in his life, you can't fault him for staring and scratching his head for expecting different.