Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

[ShadowLink84]

The chaingrab is only potent on 2 out of the 6 neutrals though (dreamland and FD). And Falco's lasers do indeed lock down Fox's movement. They force him into making a lot of jumps and Fox has no means to challenge Falco's uptilt in the air (or even a well placed bair)
And Falco far outdoes Fox in combo ability (when platforms are present, which is...every stage except FD and corneria). Even in terms of pure movement, Falco's metagame has evolved. Falcos can use side B to cross the stage and edge cancel it off a platform, they waveland onto platforms to continue shine combos, it's very interesting to watch.

That is actually not true at all.
Falco's comboes are certainly not as strong as Fox's. Fox's not only endures longer, ut is also more flexible. unlike Falco who would need a platform in oder to continue the shine combo, Fox has no need for it and can also take advantage on the platforms.

Falo also MUST edge cancel the side B and evne the, he cannot hope to compare to Foxs movement. He ca certainly attempt to move similarly in terms of raw speed, but not in mobility.

Fox also can recover MUCH better than Falco does and would die at later percents in comparison to Falco who is easily edge guarded by comparison.

There really isn't much that Falco has over Fox that s strong enough to overcome Fox's disadvantages IMO.
plus being abe to kill a fast falla ound 90 is pretty beast.

Well, powershield->dashforward->pivot shine would still wreck Marth.
That is true. Fox would still ultimately be a guessing game though (since shine is 1 frame and thus can't be powershielded on reaction). He'd run up into shine range and you'd have to guess what frame he shines on to powershield it. If you shield early Fox covers all of you options with frame perfect multishines and frame perfect wavedashing to cover rolls/spotdodges/and all OoS attacks. If you shield late, you get hit. So the situation still heavily favors Fox, but you do have a possibility of powershielding the shine (and winning the match with your counter attack if your character has an infinite stall)

Well if we assume frame perfect behavior we know that Fox would do nothing else except use his shine. By nature that would make the shine predictable because anything else would simply be perfect shielded.
If I recall correctly Marth has a superior wave dash so he would be able to wave dash away since his jump is only slightly slower bu his wavedash takes him a longer distance faster.

Yay theory craft
Yep, except for the 3 attacks that come out in 1 frame. The two shines and rest!

Would I be wrong for saying I like Falco's shine better? I like the upwards trajectory @_@

Indeed
I went on a little tangent where I used real battle scenerios. My bad[/qoute]
who cares its all good.

That WOULD be fun to watch

I got money on Falco.
Cause he is a bird

Yeah I understood what you meant. I just wanted to emphasize that few characters can pull that off.[/quote
undstod.

He'd just get powershield ***** and not shine ***** <_<

might as ell be the same thing XD,

Yep
Admittedly, powershielding does seem to be the superior option. The only catch is that you still suffer shield stun when powershielding melee attacks in melee (so against something like Peach's floatcancel fair, you'd still be at a frame disadvantage). In which case pivoting into an attack, or dash dancing into a shine would probably be better options.

That is true. However a character like Fox jsut wouldnt be able to perform such behavior against a perfect Marth. His sword is just too gay to make powershielding not an option.

lol, but it would take FOREVER

Very true @_@

YAY. Logic

I approve

I agree (and I also don't know enough about the current brawl metagame to make intelligent discussion about it).

Simple, MK is a gay character but isnt ban worthy.

Of course no good MK approaches with drill rush, because it's not a viable option. Therefore, it's further evidence that MK isn't broken!

STOP.
TROLLING.
PLEASE.

The fact that this topic is in general discussion alone says it will lack intelligent conversations.
Can you kindly not add to the cesspool of idiocy?

 

[ShadowLink84]

my error here

 

[Red Arremer]

whats the sbr count>????

like 14-11 or something???

We're not allowed to leak.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Usually the people who play melee don't like brawl's lack of combos, wave dashing, l-canceling and so on. Not really because of Meta Knight.

And I'd say usually the people that like Brawl like it for being Brawl, not because of MK, so they wouldn't quit just because MK was banned. This goes both ways.

 

[ShadowLink84]

We're not allowed to leak.

That;s stupid.

"We aren't allowed to discuss how the SBR voted.
Just know that we vote. "

I really do think the SBR shouldn't be so opaque. It's silly.

 

[tocador]

I've never heard of any of the competitive players quitting solely because of Meta Knight.

You know the wrong people then :B. I've seen some of them leaving, purely because they just dont want a "whos the best MK contest", but i think this is BS.

If you dont like it, leave it, because MK dosent ruin the game. For me, he makes it more fun to play, with a challangish type of fun :B.

 

[phi1ny3]

You guys are nuts.

Best argument I've heard all day, lol.
This wins.

 

[MarKO X]

Of course no good MK approaches with drill rush, because it's not a viable option. Therefore, it's further evidence that MK isn't broken!

Super Turbo Akuma's jumping jab was pretty bad (as was a lot of other jumping jabs). Must mean that Akuma isn't broken.

 

[SmashChu]

If people could beat MK, there'd be no argument. We'd keep MK and still have diversity in the results. If we ban him, we're doing it for the sake of those who can't beat MK with their characters like Boss or MikeHAZE do. Rather than become good enough like them, we ban him to cater to those are frustrated because they can't win and go MK. MK wrecks Marth/ROB, yet MikeHAZE, Neo and Holy do well vs them? It makes no sense to me.

I agree. On the bold, the problem with the Smash community is that everything is done in a basement setting, not in real tournament settings. People "test" these aspect, but they can never be accurate because of the method of testing something and who is playing against who. I doubt any of the match ups are correct.

Also, if people are beating Meta-Knight, then how is he broken?

Food for though:Smashboards considers Meta-Knight to be broken, but Meta-Knight loses all the time online and wasn't even in the top 8 at Evo in 08. Why?

 

[icyrvnd]

Yes 1,241 54.10%
WTF people...

Banning MK is ***gotry. The way the game is, is the way the game is. Would you like if your character got banned?

God f'ing ****it ...

(lol it wordfilters "****"..)

 

[Commander_Beef]

because not all meta knights do this and the ones who do are treated like trash. Not like most Meta knight mains aren't already insulted enough for using a top tier, omgbroken character etc.

We're not discussing about what the Meta Knight players do, or not how many people have experienced Meta Knight firsthand at a tournament. He's under the spotlight of being banned or not because of his overall character physics in the game and how he is "broken" compared to the other characters.

 

[Tristan_win]

I wonder how long this little fight over what to do will last this time.

It be interesting to see how the community will change if and when meta knight is banned since it will drastically change the game. I've seen some decision in here about how low tier wont be changed that much by his leave which I agree with for all the characters who deserve to be in low tier. Although mid tier is going to go crazy once meta knight is gone, a lot of the characters in mid tier will have a excuse to be able to jump over there fellow mid tiers and some of which may be able to strike into high mid tier or even high with the new found momentum.

 

[Red Arremer]

That;s stupid.

"We aren't allowed to discuss how the SBR voted.
Just know that we vote. "

I really do think the SBR shouldn't be so opaque. It's silly.

We're following the order we're given. =/
And not allowed to give any details.

Just as much - it's fairly even.

 

[DanGR]

It has everything to do with it. Banning MK means that he's over-centralizing the game, compelling others to use MK for bad matchups, use MK to beat MK, and consequently, become overplayed/dominate tournaments.

Even if we're banning him for the sake of promoting diversity in the game and reviving the counterpick system, those actions are a direct result of MK ruining the game by being too good and beating everyone.

You're right. My apologies.

If people could beat MK, there'd be no argument.

People can beat MK, do beat MK, and have beat MK. Are you saying that the pro-ban side has no good arguments because that's true? I think there are good arguments on both sides.

We'd keep MK and still have diversity in the results. If we ban him, we're doing it for the sake of those who can't beat MK with their characters like Boss or MikeHAZE do. Rather than become good enough like them, we ban him to cater to those are frustrated because they can't win and go MK. MK wrecks Marth/ROB, yet MikeHAZE, Neo and Holy do well vs them? It makes no sense to me.

The pro-ban side is arguing that more and more people are going to pick MK as a result of him having no bad matchups, essentially. Well, at least I am. That destroys diversity. I, apart from a lot of pro-ban advocates, think we have rather good diversity at the moment. I feel very strongly that it will NOT stay this way though.

When you look at it that way, yes, banning MK would allow those with MK as a roadblock to do better. I don't see a problem with that if it means having a healthy game with at least as much diversity as a game like Melee or SF3. Brawl isn't headed in that direction though.

This isn't important to the Meta Knight debate, but if you're referring to MikeHaze's set versus M2K at Evo, I'd like to point out that at least a few top players and intelligent individuals have noted that M2K plays the matchup completely wrong. Also, Holy has recently stated that he's having a lot of trouble fighting the Meta Knight players in his area now after they're learning the matchup.

 

[MarKO X]

I agree. On the bold, the problem with the Smash community is that everything is done in a basement setting, not in real tournament settings. People "test" these aspect, but they can never be accurate because of the method of testing something and who is playing against who. I doubt any of the match ups are correct.

Also, if people are beating Meta-Knight, then how is he broken?

Food for though:Smashboards considers Meta-Knight to be broken, but Meta-Knight loses all the time online and wasn't even in the top 8 at Evo in 08. Why?

Once again, if people can beat Akuma, he must not be broken. Because, you know, everyone is gonna use the brokenness of a broken character correctly all the time.

Evo 08 had a level playing field called items. That's why there were no MKs in the top 8. My question, though, is why were there no Sonics in the top 8? That baffles me....

 

[Red Arremer]

When you look at it that way, yes, banning MK would allow those with MK as a roadblock to do better. I don't see a problem with that if it means having a healthy game with at least as much diversity as a game like Melee or SF3. Brawl isn't headed in that direction though.

But SF3, at least Third Strike, has almost only Yuns and Chun-Lis among the victors.
More Chuns than Yuns, tho.

 

[Wisp]

But guys, without Metaknight, the metagame will never be the same! It'll just be the...game.

 

[ShadowLink84]

We're following the order we're given. =/
And not allowed to give any details.

gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay

And I know you fin it odd too. =P

Just as much - it's fairly even.

I find this more interesting http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDDHHrt6l4w

 

[Red Arremer]

gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay

And I know you fin it odd too. =P

No I don't :V

I find this more interesting http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDDHHrt6l4w

This is indeed far more interesting.

 

[0megaZer0]

Once again, if people can beat Akuma, he must not be broken. Because, you know, everyone is gonna use the brokenness of a broken character correctly all the time.

Evo 08 had a level playing field called items. That's why there were no MKs in the top 8. My question, though, is why were there no Sonics in the top 8? That baffles me....

WOW -- We discount EVO 08 because it had items -- REAL competitive smash doesn't use items.

But of course you know that

And Sonics didn't hit the top 8 because of items slowing them down and/or when it was one on one all the other characters [higher tier] destroyed them...sadly

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

We're following the order we're given. =/
And not allowed to give any details.

Just as much - it's fairly even.

I don't think he's blaming you, just saying SBR in general.

 

[DanGR]

But SF3, at least Third Strike, has almost only Yuns and Chun-Lis among the victors.
More Chuns than Yuns, tho.

Personally, I'd rather have only Chun-Lis than MKs.

 

[Strong Badam]

But SF3, at least Third Strike, has almost only Yuns and Chun-Lis among the victors.
More Chuns than Yuns, tho.

daigo wrecked **** on anyone using Ken. it's clear that Yun and Chun are the best, but a lot of other characters are still tournament viable.

also, the SBR is IMO a pretty dumb idea. having a community-driven game's metagame and ruleset made by an "elite group," with little community input (other than this, which isn't really going to make much of a difference anyway).

 

[ShadowLink84]

No I don't :V

My bull**** meter exploded.
I expect you to pay for it =D

This is indeed far more interesting.

I was weeping tears of laughter when I saw it.
Rorshac, he changed alot!

 

[JUDGE]

Yes 1,241 54.10%
WTF people...

Banning MK is f a g g o t r y. The way the game is, is the way the game is. Would you like if your character got banned?

God f'ing d a m n i t ...

(lol it wordfilters "d a m n"..)

i agree
in the beginning i was for banning meta knight, thought he would be way to strong : (
but i studyied him A LOT cuz he is one of marios most hardest match up.......
.....and it worked
last week i won a biiig tourney with 128 people and in the grandfinals i had to face a ****ing good mk.........i was really scared when i heard that but i still won against this guy

i know mk is way to strong, i know he has a perfect recovery, i know his attacks are as fast as lightning, i know about his machtornado(!), his shuttleloop(!) and his spammable dsmash(that comes out at frame 5!!!!!!!)

but if people spend enough time to study mk metagame and hit him at his weekness points,
then i'm sure that a good player can defeat a good mk

it isn't like beating a mk is impossible
i wanna remind eveyone who seem to forgot this : smash bros is a game that based on mindgames

mindgames!!! there is nothing a mk can do when he get mindgamed, so even a ganon can defeat a mk(even if it's hard)


please do not ban mk!! i know we can kick their *****!!!!
like i did in the tourney muhahahahahaha^^ *act up^^*

 

[Red Arremer]

Personally, I'd rather have only Chun-Lis than MKs.

Is it because of her boobies?

daigo wrecked **** on anyone using Ken. it's clear that Yun and Chun are the best, but a lot of other characters are still tournament viable.

Well, so are characters in Brawl. At the very least S, A, B and partly C Tier.

Guess what, Meta Knight does not make any character unviable outside of a handful. His matchups are usually 60:40 in his favour! That doesn't make anyone unviable, just slightly disadvantaged!

Oh right, he's Meta Knight, he wins everything 70:30 at worst.

 

[Falconv1.0]

daigo wrecked **** on anyone using Ken. it's clear that Yun and Chun are the best, but a lot of other characters are still tournament viable.

Unlike in Brawl where you can only use MK, Ally is just better than everyone, M2K obviously sucks because he just goes even with Ally. Totally.

 

[Beta Knight]

And I'd say usually the people that like Brawl like it for being Brawl, not because of MK, so they wouldn't quit just because MK was banned. This goes both ways.

I never said people would quit if Meta Knight was banned. I just said people probably wouldn't come back.

 

[Strong Badam]

spadefox, I voted against the ban, just so you know. my knowledge of competitive brawl is limited but MK's presence doesn't entirely make every other character unviable, otherwise Fiction/Lain/Ally/Anther/ADHD, etc. wouldn't be placing well. the character balance of both melee and brawl have been pretty bad, so it's not like having only like 7-10 characters tournament viable is something new.

falconv1.0: i don't really understand the point of your post.... wtf?

 

[Red Arremer]

Unlike in Brawl where you can only use MK, Ally is just better than everyone, M2K obviously sucks because he just goes even with Ally. Totally.

I love you. No homo.

also, the SBR is IMO a pretty dumb idea. having a community-driven game's metagame and ruleset made by an "elite group," with little community input (other than this, which isn't really going to make much of a difference anyway).

Uhm, so you say that the opinions of a scrub who picked up Brawl a week ago and can't do better than spam FSmashes is just as important and worthy as the opinions of the best players, the biggest TOs and the most knowledgeable players?
Wow.

 

[Kamikaze*]

Lol, only 54% You need about 12.6 more % to get him banned.


MK wont be banned and you'll all have to cope with him even longer.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I then00b can support his argument in a well thought out and efficient manner that is supported without any logical fallacy? I say yes.

note the addition to what you said.
note it. XD

 

[MarKO X]

WOW -- We discount EVO 08 because it had items -- REAL competitive smash doesn't use items.

But of course you know that

And Sonics didn't hit the top 8 because of items slowing them down and/or when it was one on one all the other characters [higher tier] destroyed them...sadly

Super Sonic beats everyone 9001:0 though. lol

Is it because of her boobies?

No, it's her legs.

 

[Dark Sonic]

That is actually not true at all.
Falco's comboes are certainly not as strong as Fox's. Fox's not only endures longer, ut is also more flexible. unlike Falco who would need a platform in oder to continue the shine combo, Fox has no need for it and can also take advantage on the platforms.

Oh really? Falco's pillar combos (which work regardless of DI) rack an easy 45+% on any stage, and leave Fox in a terrible position (being tech chased) for a very good chance of tacking on an additional 30%+. This same combo sequence (dair->shine->stuff based on their DI) also doubles as a reliable approach.

Falo also MUST edge cancel the side B and evne the, he cannot hope to compare to Foxs movement. He ca certainly attempt to move similarly in terms of raw speed, but not in mobility.

You're forgetting that Falco is also firing lasers to limit Fox's mobility. So while for is NORMALLY more mobile than Falco an hope to be, in this matchup it's easily debatable.

Watch someone like Lambchops who LOCKS DOWN even some of the best Fox players and you'll see what I mean. Against a good Falco, Fox reverts to playing defensively and trying to counter Falco's approach options and shield pressure, while Falco is the one free to play movement games with edgecancels and whatnot.

Fox also can recover MUCH better than Falco does and would die at later percents in comparison to Falco who is easily edge guarded by comparison.

Actually, I'd dare say that Falco has safer recovery options than Fox in this matchup (provided that he's close enough to make use of them, which with good DI is very likely). Face it, up B is bad for both of them, so let's not even consider it. Now, looking at their second jumps, Falco's goes higher (allowing him more flexibility in when he can do it). Fox's side B goes much farther, but also has more startup than Falco's. Falco is also heavier than Fox, and thus won't be going as far from individual attacks.

There really isn't much that Falco has over Fox that s strong enough to overcome Falco's disadvantages IMO.
plus being abe to kill a fast falla ound 90 is pretty beast.

He's not killing Falco at 90% <_<. DI much? I feel that you are severely underestimating Falco's combo game and laser game. Fullhop double lasers can cover pretty much any height, lasering when coming off of platforms or double jumping into lasers, Falco can cover EVERY spot on the screen with a laser using some method. Fighting Falcos who are particularly skilled at such actions (like Lambchops) you simply CAN'T move around the lasers. The match becomes more about what you do when you shield a laser or get hit by it, rather than moving around them.

Well if we assume frame perfect behavior we know that Fox would do nothing else except use his shine. By nature that would make the shine predictable because anything else would simply be perfect shielded.

And yet doesn't the Fox have this knowledge as well? The simple solution to knowing your opponent would attempt to powershield is to simply wait next to them until you see a shield or other action. Unless it's a Falco, every option they have can be recognized on the first frame, and either shined one frame later for attacks, rolls, or spotdodges, or 4 frames later for shielding

If I recall correctly Marth has a superior wave dash so he would be able to wave dash away since his jump is only slightly slower bu his wavedash takes him a longer distance faster.

Multishining, not waveshining. Fox is jump canceling his shine into another shine, which takes a total of 5 frames. Marth's jump takes 5 frames as well (where his shield is down), so he will get hit on the same frame he goes airborne.

Would I be wrong for saying I like Falco's shine better? I like the upwards trajectory @_@

as far as perfect play goes it wouldn't make a difference. But yeah, it's cooler

That is true. However a character like Fox jsut wouldnt be able to perform such behavior against a perfect Marth. His sword is just too gay to make powershielding not an option.

You're not in your shield after a powershield though. Fox can powershield and then dash forward, while still having the option to just pivot shine if Marth tries to retaliate

 

[tocador]

Unlike in Brawl where you can only use MK, Ally is just better than everyone, M2K obviously sucks because he just goes even with Ally. Totally.

LaL, so much hate :B.

I think ally is M2K level, is just that MK isnt that brokenish. :D

edit: Let me change that sentence.

"I think M2K is ally level is just that MK isnt that brokenish. :D"

 

[bobson]

Uhm, so you say that the opinions of a scrub who picked up Brawl a week ago and can't do better than spam FSmashes is just as important and worthy as the opinions of the best players, the biggest TOs and the most knowledgeable players?
Wow.

Obviously not, but at least a little transparency and accepting of input on different issues would be better than the "secret club" way they do things now.

 

[fkacyan]

I love you. No homo.

It's funny, I have said this, seen this said to others, have this said to me, etc a lot in the past day or so.

Uhm, so you say that the opinions of a scrub who picked up Brawl a week ago and can't do better than spam FSmashes is just as important and worthy as the opinions of the best players, the biggest TOs and the most knowledgeable players?
Wow.

This. That said, the SBR needs to be a bit more visible, or tried to spur intelligent community discussion a little more. I'd say the current state of community idiocy is sad, and that not enough has been done to isolate intelligent posters outside of the SBR, but eh, I can see the reasoning behind it. It's probably the same reason I'm such an elitist when it comes to MMOs.

EDIT: Bobson has the right idea.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Strong Bad you fail hard.

This thread is done lol.

 

[OverLade]

Its nice knowing that I can visit this thread and witness intelligent conversation and relevant points from both sides. -_-

 

[Strong Badam]

no. i'm simply saying that community input on the ruleset has been very limited up until this poll (which, as it stands will add a whopping 2, maybe 3 votes to the tally).
then again, the target audience's age of Brawl is a lot lower than most competitive (barwl?) fighting games. i'm sure that the results of this poll and polls like this would likely just be skewed more than it's worth in the end anyway (up until SF4, scrubs didn't really join SRK, so community input meant a lot more. similar can be said about SWF, since most of the scrubs weren't really active on the boards until Brawl was announced), so i can see your point. i don't give a **** about brawl's rulesets anyway.