Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

[Brinzy]

From my understanding, nobody ever really stays untouchable with Fox for the entirety of the match so that kinda doesn't matter much shadowlink, but I don't know anything so w/e.

 

[Matador]

Considering the only other games like it are the previous incarnations of the series which are far more reliant on combo play with much larger stages in comparison to the characters and therefore play completely differently, sure, why not.

Semi-offtopic: Brawl is so much like SF4 I cut myself thinking about it.

Poking and defensive play as opposed to Aggressive play and combos like their predecessor.

But yeah, like I said, in the wrong context you can't compare the two. Too bad I wasn't in the wrong context.

 

[Dark Sonic]

MK doesn't have evens? Marth vs DK/Snake and Snake vs D3 is even or debatable for it. And the rest of the cast they have advantages over, or pretty close to it...just like MK.

And when's the last time you've seen Lain/Meep lose to a ROB...better yet, when's the last time you've seen a ROB?

Marth loses to Snake and DDD just fyi (and where'd you get DK from? DK has never been considered a Marth counter)

lol I don't even PLAY brawl and I know that much just from reading the Marth boards (which are very proffesional btw)


btw I agree with Mango! play melee!

 

[MaNg0]

You can't call a character beatable if the reason he is beaten is due to the user being imperfect.
That's like saying we should have allowed Akuma in ST because scrubby Akuma' lost to an amazing Ken.

Be serious now Mango.

i wasnt talking about that .. the only reason i brought him up is

because alot of brawl people think fox is broken.. when he isnt

and then i said brawl people would play melee and want fox banned

as a joke cause they want mk ..who they think is broken

AND NO *** BEING SERIOUS

 

[MaNg0]

Semi-offtopic: Brawl is so much like SF4 I cut myself thinking about it.

Poking and defensive play as opposed to Aggressive play and combos like their predecessor.

But yeah, like I said, in the wrong context you can't compare the two. Too bad I wasn't in the wrong context.

also melee isnt all combos

watch my combo video

READs ALL DAY

 

[Palpi]

And then you can deal with D3.

Have fun

Edit: Mk doesn't even **** wolf imo

I don't think he will.

/pulls out sarcasm detector

 

[Rykoshet]

Semi-offtopic: Brawl is so much like SF4 I cut myself thinking about it.

Poking and defensive play as opposed to Aggressive play and combos like their predecessor.

But yeah, like I said, in the wrong context you can't compare the two. Too bad I wasn't in the wrong context.

Yeah if you ignore things like the increased aerial advantages in one game and things like field/stage control you can break them both down to "turtling wins", but that's as simple a comparison to make as me saying "If you cant 4:6 it then ban the mother ****er".

DK has never been considered a Marth counter

A-ruh? It's easily one of his worst matchups in a game where he has at the very worst 4 bad matchups, tops.

 

[salaboB]

Given how intelligent you generally are, I would expect you to watch the entire video he linked and then read his post in the context of the method he was emulating. I guess that expectation was set to high in this case.

My observation was related to his complaint, not to whether it had validity.

Note I also was neutral with who it applied to - I'm rather of the opinion the "big" names on both sides of the debate are guilty of mis-responding to their opponents' arguments at times. This has been one of the major factors for the threads always getting derailed and bogged down in arguing in circles in the past.

Edit: Though really, this time around things do seem to be staying on track better than the past threads. I blame people on both sides coming into it with better preparation.

 

[The Nameless Wanderer]

Please, to the people who are saying they are voting for the lulz or just wanting to see what happens, don't.

 

[ThatAintTripping]

Here's a comparison. Imagine Melee Fox has five jumps, shuttle loop instead of firefox, and can control the angle of Fox illusion like MK can with drill rush. Is that ban-worthy? If you answer no, think about this question. If you are playing to win, how can you possibly justify NOT playing Fox?

 

[MaNg0]

2 late

LOOOOL

 

[Dogg/Naoki/Suzaku]

Banning MK is useless.

 

[ShadowLink84]

From my understanding, nobody ever really stays untouchable with Fox for the entirety of the match so that kinda doesn't matter much shadowlink, but I don't know anything so w/e.

In the event that all charatcers were played perfectly, frame perfect Fox would win, but isnt untouchable. its something said waaaaay too often.

i wasnt talking about that .. the only reason i brought him up is

because alot of brawl people think fox is broken.. when he isnt

and then i said brawl people would play melee and want fox banned

as a joke cause they want mk ..who they think is broken

Okay thats far more understandable.

AND NO *** BEING SERIOUS

I'll give you candy.

Here's a comparison. Imagine Melee Fox has five jumps, shuttle loop instead of firefox, and can control the angle of Fox illusion like MK can with drill rush. Is that ban-worthy? If you answer no, think about this question. If you are playing to win, how can you possibly justify NOT playing Fox?

That is a TERRIBLE comparison, simply because the gameplay was entirely different. In that game, you had actual hitstun and shieldstun. Irrelevant example is irrelevant. All you did was twist things to suit your own argument, rather than use a valid example.

 

[Zolios]

I think the only way I would really start to take an argument regarding a comparison of brawl and another multiplayer fighter is if the debator was actually well versed in the other game.

Not someone who owned the game for three days and only played Ken and spammed fierce punch (Master class Ken).

 

[Dark Sonic]

You can't call a character beatable if the reason he is beaten is due to the user being imperfect.
That's like saying we should have allowed Akuma in ST because scrubby Akuma' lost to an amazing Ken.

Be serious now Mango.

unfortunately, being perfect with Fox is LITTERALLY IMPOSSIBLE. It is beyond the scope of human reaction time. Human choice reaction time is approximately 10-12 frames for the average athlete/gamer (this is choice reaction. Simple reaction is like 5-6 frames or something, but considering you have to pick the correct counter in most exchanges out of a number of possible actions, you'll be using choice reaction most often).

A "perfect" Fox would use his 1 frame invincibility from shine to never get hit. Obviously, that isn't possible because humans don't have the reaction time needed to do so. A perfect Fox would never commit to an approach because he'd always be able tor react to the opponent's movements, but human reaction time limits this.

This means even in matches where the Fox DOESN'T mess up, he can still be beaten because the player is limiting the character by simply being human. The player can be read and does not have the reaction time needed to counteract the opponent, so Fox gets hit (despite being capable of dealing with the situation as a character) and that hit leads to a combo and Fox dies.

That's why Fox is still beatable, and why even the most technical Foxes lose


edit: Actually Shadowlink, a frame perfect Fox (ignoring human reaction time) IS untouchable, because he has a 1 frame move that's invincible. For any attack he could use this instantaneous invincibility to avoid taking damage, while also hitting his opponent's overextended hurtbox on the same frame. In the situation where he can't reach the opponent's hurtbox (only a few moves would be able to do this), he could simply dash away (the moves that are in this category ALL have enough startup lag for him to do so).

So...ignoring humans' limitations is fun?

 

[Dogg/Naoki/Suzaku]

Funny debate.

 

[Zolios]

Here's a comparison. Imagine Melee Fox has five jumps, shuttle loop instead of firefox, and can control the angle of Fox illusion like MK can with drill rush. Is that ban-worthy? If you answer no, think about this question. If you are playing to win, how can you possibly justify NOT playing Fox?

Fox already has his own advantages.

How would you feel if you were caught in one waveshine it would equal a death? How would you feel if you were chaingrabbed to eternity because you would fall fast? HOW WOULD YOU FEEL GETTING STAR KO'D AT 60% ON YOSHI'S ISLAND PLAYING A LIGHT CHARACTER BECAUSE YOU HAVE WEST COAST DI?

THINK ABOUT IT.

 

[MaNg0]

dont get grabbed..

dont get shined

melee logic

lol

 

[C.box]

A-ruh? It's easily one of his worst matchups in a game where he has at the very worst 4 bad matchups, tops.[/QUOTE]

marth vs mk is 60:40 - 65:35

marth vs snake 60:40-55:45

marth vs d3 60:40 - 55:45

marth vs dk 50:50

marth vs rob 50:50

marth vs wolf 50:50

marth's hardest match ups are 3 disadvantages and 3 evens, dk being even.


Either way lets get of marth and foucs on mk <_<.

Anti-ban.

 

[ThatAintTripping]

Fox already has his own advantages.

How would you feel if you were caught in one waveshine it would equal a death? How would you feel if you were chaingrabbed to eternity because you would fall fast? HOW WOULD YOU FEEL GETTING STAR KO'D AT 60% ON YOSHI'S ISLAND PLAYING A LIGHT CHARACTER BECAUSE YOU HAVE WEST COAST DI?

THINK ABOUT IT.

Right, but Melee Fox has disadvantages too. He can be combo'd and edgeguarded. MK has no serious disadvantages when he plays sufficiently gay.

 

[Red Arremer]

I think the only way I would really start to take an argument regarding a comparison of brawl and another multiplayer fighter is if the debator was actually well versed in the other game.

Not someone who owned the game for three days and only played Ken and spammed fierce punch (Master class Ken).

I'm pretty sure the people who initially brought up these comparisons are indeed very well versed in the other games.
I am well versed in Guilty Gear and Immaterial and Missing Power.
I haven't played it in ages since my PS2 was my father's and I moved out, but I was well versed in Third Strike.

Did you know that in Immaterial and Missing Power, Remilia has no disadvantaged matchups? The best is even.

 

[Dogg/Naoki/Suzaku]

I'm for Anti-ban. MKs metagame is more advanced that the whole roster right now. The only character that is close is Snake. Ally beat M2K and they are both at the top of the metagame, so MK isn't unbeatable.

 

[Matador]

Rofl no it isn't. The way it works for marth vs snake is "if snake gets taken off the stage there is no reason he should come back". Last I checked snake falls into that category against far far far worse characters, it's called having a laughable recovery. He falls into that category against Ike and Ike is a downright terrible *** character. It's still in snake's advantage, any sensible marth will tell you that. Snake loses to dedede and the debatable matchup is him vs falco. A 6-4 isn't an unbeatable situation, it doesn't change the fact that they characters can be counterpicked.

Our argument is balance now?

Let's just assume that what you're saying is completely true. Let's just say, for the sake of argument, that removing MK would re-validate the counterpicking system and seemingly balance out the game.

Now, instead of one character being the best, we have...what...four new top characters; Marth, Snake, D3 and Falco all with their respective counterpicks BUT still dominating tourneys.

Is THIS what pro-ban is arguing for?

 

[Dark Sonic]

How would you feel if you were caught in one waveshine it would equal a death? How would you feel if you were chaingrabbed to eternity because you would fall fast? HOW WOULD YOU FEEL GETTING STAR KO'D AT 60% ON YOSHI'S ISLAND PLAYING A LIGHT CHARACTER BECAUSE YOU HAVE WEST COAST DI?

THINK ABOUT IT.

Good thing I play Marth and NONE of these work <_<

 

[Brinzy]

I'm for Anti-ban. MKs metagame is more advanced that the whole roster right now. The only character that is close is Snake. Ally beat M2K and they are both at the top of the metagame, so MK isn't unbeatable.

inb4rykoquote

Did you know that in Immaterial and Missing Power, Remilia has no disadvantaged matchups? The best is even.

Do you play Remilia?

 

[Mr.-0]

I disagree with the opening saying M2K is th ebest though, ally won genesis and APEx, suck it.

 

[Lovage]

Fox already has his own advantages.

How would you feel if you were caught in one waveshine it would equal a death? How would you feel if you were chaingrabbed to eternity because you would fall fast? HOW WOULD YOU FEEL GETTING STAR KO'D AT 60% ON YOSHI'S ISLAND PLAYING A LIGHT CHARACTER BECAUSE YOU HAVE WEST COAST DI?

THINK ABOUT IT.

ehh i hate when people say "1 shine and ur dead" or "1 grab and ur dead" .... unless it's like m2ks marth on a falco.....NO, you're actually NOT DEAD....ur probably gonna take 50 percent and then they mess up or you trick them with ur DI and you can live to fight another day

 

[Rykoshet]

Our argument is balance now?

Let's just assume that what you're saying is completely true. Let's just say, for the sake of argument, that removing MK would re-validate the counterpicking system and seemingly balance out the game.

Now, instead of one character being the best, we have...what...four new top characters; Marth, Snake, D3 and Falco all with their respective counterpicks BUT still dominating tourneys.

Is THIS what pro-ban is arguing for?

If we're throwing other fighters into it, Melee and Third Strike both have that system going for it where the top is dominated by multiple characters, all of which form a balance due to inherent disadvantages to eachother (And in that system it would be achieved with Falco losing to marth, Marth losing to d3 and snake, snake losing to d3 and falco, d3 losing to falco) and that's what I'm aiming for, I couldn't really care less what the rest of the pro-ban side thinks.

 

[Red Arremer]

Do you play Remilia?

No, I play Yukari, Marisa and Sakuya.

 

[Dark Sonic]

ehh i hate when people say "1 shine and ur dead" or "1 grab and ur dead" .... unless it's like m2ks marth on a falco.....NO, you're actually NOT DEAD....ur probably gonna take 50 percent and then they mess up or you trick them with ur DI and you can live to fight another day

with good DI...you're definitely not even taking 50%.

0-deaths in melee all stem from either

1. The player being combo'd messing up (bad DI, missed tech, whatever)
2. The player being combo'd being predicted (predictable DI, predictable tech roll, ect) at the end of one combo to be linked into another combo.

 

[MaNg0]

a mango zero to death

involves alot of reads

=D

 

[ShadowLink84]

unfortunately, being perfect with Fox is LITTERALLY IMPOSSIBLE. It is beyond the scope of human reaction time. Human choice reaction time is approximately 10-12 frames for the average athlete/gamer (this is choice reaction. Simple reaction is like 5-6 frames or something, but considering you have to pick the correct counter in most exchanges out of a number of possible actions, you'll be using choice reaction most often).

Use an AR.
Its actually hilarious watching perfect Fox face off against a perfect Marth or perfect Falco. Extremely entertaining, I kid you not.

A "perfect" Fox would use his 1 frame invincibility from shine to never get hit. Obviously, that isn't possible because humans don't have the reaction time needed to do so. A perfect Fox would never commit to an approach because he'd always be able tor react to the opponent's movements, but human reaction time limits this.

o frame 1 the move also has a hitbox, plus, you can lock him within his shine and punish him, of course this would require inhuman reaction time.

Shine is not the only reason why theycal him untouchable,it also refers to his incredible movement speed which allow him to avoid aevrything.
projectiles mean little to a 4 frame jump and a 1 frame shine.

Its only when he really encounters someone who can either pull a nasty spacing game like a pefect Marth that Fox has issues.
I hear that bowser is also nasty with frame eperfect behavior, but I never tried it out since i sold my GC.

more stuff

I already covered it

edit: Actually Shadowlink, a frame perfect Fox (ignoring human reaction time) IS untouchable, because he has a 1 frame move that's invincible.

I covered this earlie and I cannot understand why you're repeating yourself Dark Sonic.

While Fox ha a 1 frame invincibility move, the move is a special move that can be locked as soon as a projectile taps the shine. Plus, aerial moves do not clang with the move adn considering the behavior of the shine and the jump cancel requirement, its not part of the entire reason why Fox is claimed as untouchable.

Fox's mobility in itself mak him **** near impossible to hit.
As I said earlier, a 4 frame jump and the ability to cross FD in a little over a second make him extremely difficult to touch.

I don't believe any perfect matches were made for melee.

For any attack he could use this instantaneous invincibility to avoid taking damage, while also hitting his opponent's overextended hurtbox on the same frame.

Flaw.

If Fox isn't committing to an approach and is focusing the opponent close, perfect wise, unless they haverange equicalent to Ness or kirby, there is no reason to get shined at the same time he pullst he move off. Unless he wave dashes up and shines you in the face though frame perfect wise, the opponent would react and waved ash away.

In the situation where he can't reach the opponent's hurtbox (only a few moves would be able to do this), he could simply dash away (the moves that are in this category ALL have enough startup lag for him to do so).

Correct but it also requires him to jump cancel and considering the amount of time he is int he air (cause he doesn't have falcon's aerial mobility it isn't exactly perfectly safe.

Perfect frame Fox isn't untouchable. He certainly wins tons but isn't a character who is anywhere near to the broken behavior of say Akuma.

So...ignoring humans' limitations is fun?

Where did you get that idea where I said we must ignore it completely?
Assumptions are bad and make the person making the assumption look like an ***.

 

[Red Arremer]

Mango, you're a worse avatarwh**e than me. Just wanted to state that.

 

[MaNg0]

LOL im having an avatar battle in another thread

 

[Brinzy]

No, I play Yukari, Marisa and Sakuya.

Only character I use is Patchouli. I only play it once in a blue moon, though.

Patchouli is bad I'm guessing.

 

[Lovage]

yea right? there are so so so so few true completely inescapable combos...like maybe peach vs. spacies on FD...or marth under a low platform vs. a spacie....and these combos almost never KILL they just do good damage, and they're SUPER hard to do...melee is fukken hard people need to realize this LOL

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

This topic is only slightly less stupid than it was a year ago.

PWAH! =_=

 

[Red Arremer]

Only character I use is Patchouli. I only play it once in a blue moon, though.

Patchouli is bad I'm guessing.

Patchouli is ok, actually. The game is pretty well balanced, only Meirin is literally bad. Sure, Patchy isn't Top Tier, but she still can hold herself, lol.

She's actually pretty good for getting into the game, too, since her combos aren't that hard to learn.

@Mango: Ok

 

[*_Echo_*]

Our argument is balance now?

Let's just assume that what you're saying is completely true. Let's just say, for the sake of argument, that removing MK would re-validate the counterpicking system and seemingly balance out the game.

Now, instead of one character being the best, we have...what...four new top characters; Marth, Snake, D3 and Falco all with their respective counterpicks BUT still dominating tourneys.

Is THIS what pro-ban is arguing for?

uh, yea? its to bring back the CP so to speak, and who knows other chars can dominate as well, or someone can be good with a bunch of char (ninja link) and CP all of those chars
and olimar goes even or has the advatage on all of those char but marth

 

[ShadowLink84]

Wait wait, you guys play touhou's fighting games?

O_O

I am...amazed!