Fixing impractical moves in Brawl+

[Foresight]

Now that Brawl+ is becoming more refined and balanced, I think that it would be a wise idea to alter some of the more unusable/impractcal moves as we continue to balance the characters. I don't want to get into a big discussion on whether one move is always a better choice than another, I more want to discuss moves that either have no practical use, or moves in which the risk involved is clearly not compensated by the reward. The best examples I can think of are the following:

Squirtle's Charged Water Gun
Mario's FLUDD
Jigglypuff's Sing
Ganon's Up-tilt

I'm sorry if I left any other big offenders out, but these are the ones that immediately came to my mind. I think it's pretty clear why these moves need some serious changes, but as far as I know, it has not been decided as to exactly how they should be changed. That is why I made this thread. I want to discuss specific changes to these moves, so I'll begin with my suggestions. All opinions are based on the Brawl+ 4.0 codeset.


Squirtle's charged Water Gun and Mario's FLUDD both suffer from the same problem, they do no damage and the knockback is pathetic even when fully charged. We could make these moves useable easily by a conventional method, such as adding damage or increasing knockback. However, balancing it could be difficult due to the aim-able nature and the multiple hits. I think we could also take a more unconventional approach and introduce a tripping effect to the move. It would be appropriate effect to add on, as water could cause an opponent to slip and fall in a realistic situation. However balancing this could be very difficult. I'm not sure it would be possible, but if we could make each shot increase the chances of tripping slightly, with the effect wearing off over time, then we could make this move useful without increasing damage or knockback at all. I think Squirtle's uncharged Water Gun is fine, I just think it's stupid that charging the move makes it worse.

Jigglypuff's Sing is known by all to be a pretty crappy move. Even at high percentages, if you hit with the first "note" of sing, the opponent will still wake up before Jigglypuff can move, causing you to nearly always be severely punished for successfully landing the move. This is the ultimate example of a high-risk move with little to no reward. Sure, you can sometimes land it while you are in the air right above a ledge and cancel out of the animation, but that is way too situational and still easily avoidable. You can maybe get an attack in if you hit with the second or third note of Sing, but good luck with that. We could make it so that each note you are hit with resets the timer, effectively making the act of hitting with the first note the same as hitting with the third, but that could be too powerful or be abused and lead to a Sing spamming stall method. Alternatively, we could add the flower affect to the move to ensure that any opponent caught by the move takes some damage, and perhaps alter the time of the affect so that both Jiggly and the opponent always wake up at the same time. With this method, we could treat sing as a defensive move by making it hit faster, so that a careless attack rush could be stopped in its tracks, with the flower doing minor damage, but Jiggly still safe from punishment. I favor this because I don't believe that extending the sleeping time so that Jiggly can attack normally is a viable solution. It would most certainly lead to abuse of Rest and make Jigglypuff way overpowered. The only way I would be in favor of increasing the sleep time is if we altered the move to make it a counter, like Marth's or Ike's. In which case, a guaranteed Rest would balance out the risk of attempting a counter with such a long cool-down time.

Finally, there is Ganon's up-tilt. This move is so slow and hard to hit with that your opponent basically has to walk into it. To make matters worse, you can't cancel it, so if you accidentally do it or your opponent is even remotely paying attention, you sit there like an idiot as they counter attack. Basically the risk for this move is way too high for what is equivalent to a smash attack that has a long, mandatory charge. I agree with a discussion in another thread that talked about making the move cancelable. We could also reduce the moves start-up time, but we would definitely have to weaken it at that point for balance issues. I really don't see speeding-up/weakening the move to be a bad idea, as Ganon still has 3 powerful smashes and the Warlock Punch for a high-risk/reward move.


Wow, that was a long post. Sorry for the wall-o-text, but I really think these issues need to be addressed. Please discuss your opinions and any ideas you may have.

EDIT: If you suggest an idea, please explain how you we could ensure the move, and therefore the character, remain balanced.

Please consider balance issues before proposing changes!

 

[AfroThunderRule]

First I don't believe any move is useless especially in Brawl+ hence my lol.

Fludd/Water Gun are effective gimping tools and you can use it to space yourself too.

Ganon Up tilt in Brawl+ is too good. It can wreck people who don't recover properly because of the non-sweetspot recovery code.

Although jiggs Sing isn't all that useful you can ledge cancel with it.

Just my 10 cents.

 

[GuruKid]

I don't know about Mario's FLUDD, but Squirtle's water gun has always held much use for me. While it doesn't outright gimp or push characters very far away from ledges, it's more apt for creating setups in which you can edgeguard even more effectively or for just making some room in-between yourself and your opponent. It's never been useless, even in regular brawl; I don't see any need in buffing it.

Regarding Jigg's sing, I like the idea of each sing note resetting the opponent's sleep timer. Something like that would elevate the move from "high risk, low reward" right up to "high risk, high reward".

I'm unsure about Ganon's utilt though... decreasing the start-up lag would do wonders for that move, especially with its unique windbox... perhaps a bit too many wonders. Than again... Ganon could use all the help he can get. lol

 

[Greenpoe]

Sheik's dair will only hit if your opponent forgets about the move. It has crappy startup, lots of end lag, crappy hitbox, crappy knockback, and it is nearly always better to simply fast fall downward.

Lucario's u-smash is useless because it has FAR too much endlag and it has a very predictable hitbox.

 

[Sukai]

Fludd gimps recoveries and shuts down ground approaches.
Water Gun does what Fludd does, and does damage up close.
Sing refreshes Jigglypuff's jumps.
Ganon Up tilt is a decent edge guarding tool, just takes timing.
They aren't useless, and pertain their effectiveness in Brawl+.
Brawl+ requests should go in the plusery thread.

 

[Roxas215]

Ok 1st of all mario's fludd and deftinaley squirtle's water gun are very useful in the right situations. I have gimped many a peach,fox,falco,wolf,falcon,ivy,mario,dk,and zss with squirtle's watergun. More so in brawl+ then vbrawl

I don't play mario but my friend mains him. In brawl+ with the momentum codes the cape/fludd combo is too good.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Honestly guys, you think that Sing and FLUDD are good moves?

They're the epitome of bad moves. They're not useless, but you don't see Jigglypuffs comboing their uairs into Sing for a reason. In almost any given situation, you could've used a much better move than sing to get a hit.

That said, even great characters have stupidly situational moves. Sing only existed in Melee to screw up badly inputted Rising Pounds, Fox and Falco's fairs were among the most useless aerials in the game, and Marth's usmash was beaten by his utilt in almost every conceivable way.

Characters have always had useless moves. Knowing when and when not to use your situational moves is part of learning the character.


If said characters need buffs, then look these over. As of now though, Jiggles can combo and chase like a beast, Squirtle is like Jigglypuff with only 2 jumps and a faster fall speed, and Mario is just plain mean.

Ganon though, I think needs a bit of work.

 

[Nights Dawn]

Sing may not be a good move, but Fludd is obviously a great move if used correctly.

It can mess up your oppenents recovery and spacing.

 

[Roxas215]

Honestly guys, you think that Sing and FLUDD are good moves?

They're the epitome of bad moves. They're not useless, but you don't see Jigglypuffs comboing their uairs into Sing for a reason. In almost any given situation, you could've used a much better move than sing to get a hit.

That said, even great characters have stupidly situational moves. Sing only existed in Melee to screw up badly inputted Rising Pounds, Fox and Falco's fairs were among the most useless aerials in the game, and Marth's usmash was beaten by his utilt in almost every conceivable way.

Characters have always had useless moves. Knowing when and when not to use your situational moves is part of learning the character.


If said characters need buffs, then look these over. As of now though, Jiggles can combo and chase like a beast, Squirtle is like Jigglypuff with only 2 jumps and a faster fall speed, and Mario is just plain mean.

Ganon though, I think needs a bit of work.

You say there not useless yet the title of your topic is useless moves

And you don't see jigglypuff as a char for a reason(talking about brawl)

Brawl+ all chars are buffed thanks to the new engine. I am by no mean a jiggy expert but i messed around with her a couple times and have already found uses for sing.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

You say there not useless yet the title of your topic is useless moves

And you don't see jigglypuff as a char for a reason(talking about brawl)

Brawl+ all chars are buffed thanks to the new engine. I am by no mean a jiggy expert but i messed around with her a couple times and have already found uses for sing.

My topic? Say what now? xD

I don't get what you mean here. Is this a stab at vBrawl Jiggles? o.o?


I would love to hear. If you've got one other than "ledge cancel it and hope they don't have a spike to hit you with", I'll be interested.

 

[bobson]

Honestly guys, you think that Sing and FLUDD are good moves?

Play Mario for awhile and get back to us on that.
FLUDD is an integral part of Mario's gimping game and goes hand-in-hand with the cape. Offstage, it zones the opponent perfectly for a gimp and can help your recovery at the same time. It counters Metaknight's tornado. FLUDD-induced hitlag totally shuts down Game&Watch's bair approach and sets up anyone who likes to approach with aerials for punishment. It's largely unpunishable, too, so even if it doesn't give you an advantage, it still resets your opponent's spacing at no cost to you.

Sing is trash, though.

 

[Team Giza]

We could easily change Jigglypuff's sing to cause longer sleep duration. We could also increase the push on the watergun and fludd attacks or make them cause slight damage.

 

[ndayday]

How about making Sing work better at lower percentages? Because as of normal Brawl, Jiggly's Sing is only useful (meaning that Jiggly recovers from Sing before they wake up) at 200% or higher. And yeah, that's with mashing buttons.

All it's good for in Brawl is being fancy with your recovery. And we all know how much that helps a character.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Play Mario for awhile and get back to us on that.
FLUDD is an integral part of Mario's gimping game and goes hand-in-hand with the cape. Offstage, it zones the opponent perfectly for a gimp and can help your recovery at the same time. It counters Metaknight's tornado. FLUDD-induced hitlag totally shuts down Game&Watch's bair approach and sets up anyone who likes to approach with aerials for punishment. It's largely unpunishable, too, so even if it doesn't give you an advantage, it still resets your opponent's spacing at no cost to you.

Sing is trash, though.

No Mario main, but wouldn't resetting your opponents spacing with a move that you have to charge end up doing nothing for you and just stalling be, in effect...useless? xD

I agree that it can gimp well, but all I ever seem to use it for when playing Mario off and on is to set my opponent up to recover badly and be caped.
I could do the same thing better with bair and edgehogging.

Again, not a Mario main, but it just seems like a lot of things in a lot of situations would work, and work better then FLUDD.


And no sing into rest combos, please. If she really needs a buff, just make the waves push opponents away violently for the duration of the move or something. Then you could actually have a use for ledge cancel Sing.

 

[bobson]

No Mario main, but wouldn't resetting your opponents spacing with a move that you have to charge end up doing nothing for you and just stalling be, in effect...useless? xD

You don't need to charge it to reset spacing.

Again, not a Mario main, but it just seems like a lot of things in a lot of situations would work, and work better then FLUDD.

It's the type of move which has a lot of applications you don't really understand until you just start throwing it out randomly in the middle of a match.

 

[tocador]

Give jigly a mic, that can turn into a pen, and sing will be way more usefull!!!

K, for real now. I think it would be good if you could Active/Desactive sing on will, making it good to combo and stuff, but in fact do not change the time sleeping, just give it that buff, and somewhat nerf the range a tiny bit just to balance it!

 

[Team Giza]

I think it would be good if you could Active/Desactive sing on will, making it good to combo and stuff, but in fact do not change the time sleeping, just give it that buff, and somewhat nerf the range a tiny bit just to balance it!

That seems a little overly complex. Thanks for that. I think I'll stick to just saying the sleeping time should be buffed.

 

[Glick]

Jigglypuffs sing is a HORRID move.

I think it needs some super armor frames. Either that or give it IASA frames. That way you can cancel it with a sheild.

There is a way to get out of sing way early. button mashing through sleep is just as broken as the new cargo throw break.

 

[ndayday]

That seems a little overly complex. Thanks for that. I think I'll stick to just saying the sleeping time should be buffed.

Agree with that, but would be an appropriate buff? Right now it can be button mashed out of until 200% and up, so something like 130% at the highest?

And IASA frames sound good too.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

You don't need to charge it to reset spacing.


It's the type of move which has a lot of applications you don't really understand until you just start throwing it out randomly in the middle of a match.

Oh? My mistake.


Probably why I haven't noticed them then.

 

[Foresight]

Someone want to make a video of themselves using FLUDD or water gun effectively, because I've never really seen it. It barely pushes the opponent back at all, just kinda slows them down. I could see maybe for spacing, but I still think there are very few practical uses for it.

As for sing, like I said, increasing the sing time would make Jigglypuff broken, I would much rather just make the move do something. It doesn't have to be an awesome move, just not useless.

As for Ganon, why would you edge guard with utilt when you have dair? Also, if we give Ganon back his second jump after his aerial down-B, no one will use utilt to edge guard. Hell, I'd be happy keeping it, as is, if we just made it cancelable.

EDIT: Changed the topic title to appease the complainers.

 

[The Cape]

Mario's FLUDD is actually a great move as you can recover, space, and edgeugard with it. You can also use it as a combo finisher.

Ganon U tilt is a good edgeguard and punish move, and I am actually running some edits on it as we speak to make it more interesting.

Making jiggs sing keeping you asleep longer is a good idea, as is speeding up the entire move.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Again, no Sing into Rest On a Platter please. That would just be boring, as well as stupid.


Here's an idea, make the move near-instant on startup, and make it shieldbreak anyone attempting to block it.
Keeps the stun mechanic, removes the idiot proofing of it, gives Jiggles more "all or nothing" and shield pressure options, which I think suit her character well.

 

[SkylerOcon]

Someone want to make a video of themselves using FLUDD or water gun effectively

Watch it, and never question the FLUDD's usefulness again.

 

[Metatitan]

yeah... please oh please make sing better. here are some ideas:
1. longer sleep duration
2. broken radius with more than vbrawl duration but not a huge duration
3. make the move itself only last like 1 second or so with vbrawl duration (if possible, u guys made rest good again so im sure u can do it)

 

[sandbags06]

using FLUDD effectively:

1. hit ness or lucas with it while they try to recover, chances are they will fail
2. if toon link/link use up b on the ground close to edge use it, they get pushed off and are helpless
3. really messes up ike's up b if he goes above the edge

im sure theres some more.

 

[Kitamerby]

Lucario's U-smash Is Useless Because It Has Far Too Much Endlag And It Has a Very Predictable Hitbox.

....*ahem*








WHAT. THE. FUCK.

 

[:mad:]

using FLUDD effectively:

1. hit ness or lucas with it while they try to recover, chances are they will fail
2. if toon link/link use up b on the ground close to edge use it, they get pushed off and are helpless
3. really messes up ike's up b if he goes above the edge

im sure theres some more.

1. Ness has no choice, he can't always stop FLUDD. Lucas has a number of things he can do.
2. Wrong. They can still land on the ledge.
3. Yup. But first of all, what good Ike will go above the stage?

FIHL, for one.
If you're lucky enough to break a shield.
Also, to anyone that said they gimped a Peach with FLUDD... LOLOLOllooloOLOL.

 

[Vitamin_x]

EDIT: Ignore this post. Sorry.

 

[KarateF22]

....*ahem*








WHAT. THE. FUCK.

agreed, lucario' upsmash is infamous for having the wierdest hitbox in all of SSB, starting behind him and rapidly sweeping in front of him which will hit those really close to him. Ive had it clink with Ike's Fsmash before, saving my hide...

That being said, would be nice if he had hitboxes at his feet like marth does that launch the opponent into the main hitbox. Would make it much more useful.

 

[Greenpoe]

....*ahem*

How often do you land Lucario's u-smash in Brawl+?

If the answer isn't never, then....why was your opponent above you long enough to u-smash (unless you did u-throw to u-smash, that's probably escapable anyway). Sure, it has a lingering hitbox and a small hitbox around Lucario, but it's almost always smarter to use u-tilt or another option, because u-smash has so much cooldown that it is easier to punish. When can you consistently use u-smash? Do any characters use viable approaches that leave themselves open long enough to be u-smashed?

 

[KarateF22]

How often do you land Lucario's u-smash in Brawl+?

If the answer isn't never, then....why was your opponent above you long enough to u-smash (unless you did u-throw to u-smash, that's probably escapable anyway). Sure, it has a lingering hitbox and a small hitbox around Lucario, but it's almost always smarter to use u-tilt or another option, because u-smash has so much cooldown that it is easier to punish. When can you consistently use u-smash? Do any characters use viable approaches that leave themselves open long enough to be u-smashed?

go back to page two and read my post....

 

[:mad:]

And on the subject of moves that need to be fixed, the absolute worst move in any Smash Bros. game is Mario's dtilt. Please, somebody give this move a use.

And besides that, Ness's PK Thunder. Needs to be like Lucas's.

 

[Neb]

You should add G&W's chef projectile and his ftilt to the list...

 

[Foresight]

I really don't want to get into a big argument, but FIHL looks like it rarely accomplishes more than a simple spot-dodge would have done. I'll give you some of the attacks with a larger horizontal range, but the video was a demonstration and not actual combat conditions, so I still have my doubts about its viability in a real match.

I also have a problem with some of the gimping examples where the cape was used directly after FLUDD. In a good number of those, the FLUDD usage was completely unnecessary, as the cape would have killed them anyway if you had just used it first. I realize you were making a demonstrational video on how to use it, but in most of the video, I felt like you were using it just to use it, and that it didn't really offer much advantage to not using it at all. Ledge cancelling impressed me though, I've never seen anyone use FLUDD on an edge recovery attack before, that was good stuff.

As for the gimping of Ness and Lucas's recovery, I'm no Mario main, but I would just use the cape. It would be a viable gimp for Squirtle, but gimping Ness and Lucas's recoveries isn't too hard to do in the first place. I dunno, I guess if Squirtle and Mario mains are happy with the move as is, we can just leave it alone.

 

[VietGeek]

You should add G&W's chef projectile and his ftilt to the list...

Alright Viet is going to ride this train too.

Make Shield Breaker actually break shields when it's fully charged. Right now it's like a Sheik's dair except Marth glows blue.

Anyway the point is that most of these specific move buffs won't be considered since conveniently the characters with these fail moves are still god **** good without them.

Because...

wait for it...

it may cause power creep =O

That's gonna be the new term of 09. It's like the gaming form of no u.

 

[Foresight]

The goal of this thread is not to make all bad moves good, it's more to fix moves that don't really have a point. G&W is fine, all of his moves are useable, not all of them have to be OMG awesome. Same with Marth. Shield breaker might not live up to its name very well, but you can still use it. I somewhat agree with the power creep argument, we can't make every move awesome, we would never balance the game.

The goal here is not necessarily to make the move, and therefore the character, better. It's to change the moves properties slightly, so that player has more options, rather than a move that they should avoid at all costs (i.e. Sing and Ganon's Utilt).

We can make Ganon's Utilt instantly better by speeding it up, but then it would be too strong. The move already pulls you in and does damage equivalent to a charged smash. If we sped it up, we would have to make it weaker, otherwise the move would be broken. A faster, weaker version would be more useable, as it would be a good way to attack grounded enemies, could be combed into, and would pop the enemy up for further damage. Or, we could make it cancelable, so you could mess around with your opponents mind, or use the wind affect to bring them into position for another move.

Same thing goes for Jigglypuff's Sing. If we simply made it last longer, Jigglypuff would be super-broken. You could immediately follow with a Rest, which would elevate the already good Jigglypuff to Broken/God tier. However, as it stands now, Sing is practically useless, and its use should be avoided. I want to discuss ideas how to make this move useable without making the move or the character broken.

Please consider balance issues before proposing changes!

 

[illinialex24]

And on the subject of moves that need to be fixed, the absolute worst move in any Smash Bros. game is Mario's dtilt. Please, somebody give this move a use.

And besides that, Ness's PK Thunder. Needs to be like Lucas's.

No it doesn't, it has a lot more power, it is strong enough in its own way.

 

[shanus]

I really don't want to get into a big argument, but FIHL looks like it rarely accomplishes more than a simple spot-dodge would have done. I'll give you some of the attacks with a larger horizontal range, but the video was a demonstration and not actual combat conditions, so I still have my doubts about its viability in a real match.

I also have a problem with some of the gimping examples where the cape was used directly after FLUDD. In a good number of those, the FLUDD usage was completely unnecessary, as the cape would have killed them anyway if you had just used it first. I realize you were making a demonstrational video on how to use it, but in most of the video, I felt like you were using it just to use it, and that it didn't really offer much advantage to not using it at all. Ledge cancelling impressed me though, I've never seen anyone use FLUDD on an edge recovery attack before, that was good stuff.

As for the gimping of Ness and Lucas's recovery, I'm no Mario main, but I would just use the cape. It would be a viable gimp for Squirtle, but gimping Ness and Lucas's recoveries isn't too hard to do in the first place. I dunno, I guess if Squirtle and Mario mains are happy with the move as is, we can just leave it alone.

Aerial Fludds can provide huge momentum as can squirtles watergun. Nice recovery use ;-)

 

[Yeroc]

Kitamerby, please don't censor dodge so flagrantly.

Also, like Leaf repeatedly states, power creep isn't an issue, because we can always just retract changes and make things that are too good worse later on.