Fixing impractical moves in Brawl+

[TheStig]

it would be sweet if sing was used as a counter move

because in pokemon jiggly got pissed when people interrupted her singing

 

[wazgood]

it would be sweet if sing was used as a counter move

because in pokemon jiggly got pissed when people interrupted her singing

this.

10char

 

[GirugaMarc]

Mario's FLUDD isn't so impractical anymore

With no auto ledge SS, it can be used for gimping

Still situational, but more useful than it was in vbrawl

 

[CloneHat]

We don't fix moves when the character is fine. Not every move must be good.

 

[Neb]

Whats so wrong with that? Why can't every piece of a characters moveset have a use?

 

[Teronist09]

Better idea, fix impractical characters.

 

[Foresight]

wtf? this thread is about impractical moves, not you guys personal buff wishlist for your mains

Sigh, too bad no one else seems to read the posts before their own.

Can everyone please get back on topic? If you want to discuss buffs for a specific character, make a new topic. This one is specifically for moves that can not be used practically in a real match. Characters like TL and Shiek have no problem hitting with any of their moves. If you want to discuss why you feel a move does not do enough damage/KB, this really isn't the place. This is more for moves that either cannot be landed in a realistic match, or have insufficient reward for the amount of risk involved in landing it.

 

[bobson]

I really don't want to get into a big argument, but FIHL looks like it rarely accomplishes more than a simple spot-dodge would have done. I'll give you some of the attacks with a larger horizontal range, but the video was a demonstration and not actual combat conditions, so I still have my doubts about its viability in a real match.

A spotdodge is punishable, especially by the aerials typically used to approach, like Marth's fair, G&W's bair, Wario's dair, etc. The FLUDD is largely unpunishable; at worst, your opponent will end up right where he was when you started it and you'll be free to shield. Besides, it's already been buffed in B+ thanks to the nosnap and momentum codes.
Look, if you're really intent on making Mario even better, then that's fine by me, but trust the people who main Mario when we say it doesn't need improvement.

And on the subject of moves that need to be fixed, the absolute worst move in any Smash Bros. game is Mario's dtilt. Please, somebody give this move a use.

Dtilt can actually combo into stuff now.

 

[Shadic]

Fixing every move is basically a power creep. It's not strengthening their advantages, it's removing their weaknesses.

 

[Dantarion]

I agree with above. This thread is all about finding moves that have no use.

However, if a good character has a useless move, you just have to not use it.
Theres no need to make every move useful.

Ganon doesn't need ANYTHING done to his uptilt.
Just don't use it.

Same with sing.

 

[Zodac]

make meta-knights special down a decent kill move!

 

[NorrYtt]

All characters want their moves to have less windup, less lag, bigger hitbox, more damage. If you simply push all moves in these directions, they all converge until nothing is different. Brawl+ is already a shorthop lagless aerial-fest.

It's impressive to connect Ganondorf's utilt, somewhat like a midbattle taunt. There is a place in Brawl for moves like that. There's also a place for lag, though it seems like many disagree, almost like the game needs 20 MKs.

 

[CyberGlitch]

Ganondorf doesn't need a hard to hit but powerful up tilt AND a hard to hit but powerful warlock punch. It makes sense to speed up the tilt and lower knockback.

I agree that sing needs work, but the new rest is so powerful that I would be overpowered if sing lead into a rest. This means the move can't be sped up...jiggly can't wake up before the other until high percents. What the move should do is add the flower to do damage, and it should put to sleep opponents who are in the air.

FLUDD and water gun don't need any changes to their mechanics. If anything make them a little quicker to charge up so they can be used more regularly, but even this isn't really necessary.

Wario is a great character...but it's still unreasonable how his Down Smash is punished even when it successfully hits. It should have a slight knockback buff to prevent this. Wario's Up Smash is also particularly odd...it's hard to hit with it's final hitbox when opponents DI...so the move is hard to be used effectively at all. If the knockback angles could be modified so the move sucks opponents in when it hits for the final blow that's be cool. DI makes this move useless.

I agree that Shiek's Down Air could use some work. It's very difficult to hit with...doesn't hit people far at all when it does hit, and doesn't really lead into much. A fast falled forward or back air is almost always better. Speed up the start time of the move. Shiek could use that little something.

Hitting opponents with DK's side B is difficult...but it has ample reward--unless they are in the air, then they just get hit down with a weak meteor. Since it's so hard to hit with, the strength of the meteor should be increased.

The first hitbox of Mario's forward air seems mega useless, it's too weak to kill and the attack is too laggy for it to lead into combos...the move is hard to hit with...it's just pathetic...

 

[CRASHiC]

There are only two moves that truly need fixing.
Jigglypuff's and Mario's Down smash.

 

[CloneHat]

There are only two moves that truly need fixing.
Jigglypuff's and Mario's Down smash.

Jiggly's down smash is a semi-spike, it's used for edgeguarding. Her ground game is not supposed to be good anyway, as I recall.
There's nothing wrong with Mario's dsmash last time I checked. Fast, hits on both sides.
This topic is simply full of suggestions from people who think every move should be great, which was not its purpose and is a danger to Brawl+ in general.

 

[Wolf of Ice]

Stop trying to make useless moves useful, just give them a use. One tiny little situation where you'd actually want to use it. Completely not using a move is wasting a move slot. The move doesn't have to be the best a character has.

If a move should NEVER be used, I think it should be fixed. Not a big fix though.

 

[Maniclysane]

From what i've heard about Jigglypuff in brawl+, she doesn't need a better sing. She's beastly enough as it is (Last time I played was when B+ came out, with wavedashing, lcanceling, and crazy hitstun so I could be off).

It helps Jiggly users learn how to rising pound. She's so good in B+ anyways buffing it could be a waste.

If you guys insist on buffing it though, I would just suggest making the hitbox bigger, letting ledge cancels actually be useful. I'd much rather have dsmash buffed than sing, like having the hitbox be actually bigger. Right now it's pretty much in her hurtbox, so it's impossible to hit with. The opponent has a sliding motion when they're hit, so it could set up for her offstage game. Just making that hitbox longer would be far better than messing with sing.

 

[Greenpoe]

From what i've heard about Jigglypuff in brawl+, she doesn't need a better sing. She's beastly enough as it is (Last time I played was when B+ came out, with wavedashing, lcanceling, and crazy hitstun so I could be off).

It helps Jiggly users learn how to rising pound. She's so good in B+ anyways buffing it could be a waste.

If you guys insist on buffing it though, I would just suggest making the hitbox bigger, letting ledge cancels actually be useful. I'd much rather have dsmash buffed than sing, like having the hitbox be actually bigger. Right now it's pretty much in her hurtbox, so it's impossible to hit with. The opponent has a sliding motion when they're hit, so it could set up for her offstage game. Just making that hitbox longer would be far better than messing with sing.

It's better to buff a useless move and, if it becomes too good, then give a blanket-nerf to the character (like each hit does 0.9x damage) because then there is more depth.

 

[Metatitan]

ive seen a lot of pple talking about jigg's moves so ill list a few that definitely need to be changed for the better because at the moment they are completely useless or crappy:
1. sing
2. d-tilt
3. d-smash
4. f-smash (its not useless but it really should be faster)

 

[bobson]

There are only two moves that truly need fixing.
Jigglypuff's and Mario's Down smash.

The hell you talkin' 'bout, son?

 

[Foresight]

All characters want their moves to have less windup, less lag, bigger hitbox, more damage. If you simply push all moves in these directions, they all converge until nothing is different. Brawl+ is already a shorthop lagless aerial-fest.

It's impressive to connect Ganondorf's utilt, somewhat like a midbattle taunt. There is a place in Brawl for moves like that. There's also a place for lag, though it seems like many disagree, almost like the game needs 20 MKs.

You've missed the point of this thread, as have all the people who are posting changes to moves that currently work fine. I'm not trying to make every character god tier where every single one of their moves is awesome. I'm just trying to introduce a little more variety into the moveset by giving basically useless moves some utility, that way Brawl+ can become more than a shorthop lagless aerial-fest, as you so eloquently put it. Adding a flower effect to Sing wouldn't make Jigglypuff broken, but it would give the player a reason to attempt to land the move.

It's better to buff a useless move and, if it becomes too good, then give a blanket-nerf to the character (like each hit does 0.9x damage) because then there is more depth.

Finally someone who gets it!

I would prefer to keep the move balanced to begin with, but if the added diversity makes the character too powerful, then this would be an appropriate way to balance the character while still giving them more options. Versatility is a good thing, it will allow people to better counter differing play-styles and character match-ups, and elevate the overall level of competition. That is the goal of Brawl+, right?

 

[GHNeko]

Now that Brawl+ is becoming more refined and balanced, I think that it would be a wise idea to alter some of the more unusable/impractcal moves as we continue [...]

Mario's FLUDD

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HahahahaHahahahaHahahahaHahahahaHahahahaHahahahaHahahahaHahahahaHahahaha
HahahahaHahahahaHahahahaHahahahaHahahahaHahahahaHahahahaHahahahaHahahaha
HahahahaHahahahaHahahahaHahahahaHahahahaHahahahaHahahahaHahahahaHahahaha
HahahahaHahahahaHahahahaHahahahaHahahahaHahahahaHahahahaHahahahaHahahaha


10Hahahaha's

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CRUjqwmZwo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hh1nWLBbMz4

Get *****, son.

Also, FIHL sucks in B+. Less hitlag now. Better as a spacing tool.


EDIT: And this is just from wifi. I have 40+ clips of me gimping people with Fludd from WHobo. Rofl.

 

[Foresight]

I really don't want to get into a big argument, but FIHL looks like it rarely accomplishes more than a simple spot-dodge would have done. I'll give you some of the attacks with a larger horizontal range, but the video was a demonstration and not actual combat conditions, so I still have my doubts about its viability in a real match.

I also have a problem with some of the gimping examples where the cape was used directly after FLUDD. In a good number of those, the FLUDD usage was completely unnecessary, as the cape would have killed them anyway if you had just used it first. I realize you were making a demonstrational video on how to use it, but in most of the video, I felt like you were using it just to use it, and that it didn't really offer much advantage to not using it at all. Ledge cancelling impressed me though, I've never seen anyone use FLUDD on an edge recovery attack before, that was good stuff.

As for the gimping of Ness and Lucas's recovery, I'm no Mario main, but I would just use the cape. It would be a viable gimp for Squirtle, but gimping Ness and Lucas's recoveries isn't too hard to do in the first place. I dunno, I guess if Squirtle and Mario mains are happy with the move as is, we can just leave it alone.

I said we can leave the water moves alone, as evidenced by my prior post. I've already conceded the point. As long as the people who main these characters are happy with them, we can leave them alone. I also noticed that some of the uses in your example were superfluous (you could have just caped Link without using FLUDD ), but I will admit that it can be used to successfully gimp given the right conditions. I have realized that if we increased the KB, the move would probably be too powerful.

EDIT: And who are you calling son? I'm older than you, little one. Why back in my day, Smash Bros. only had 12 characters, and we didn't have any fancy charged smashes or airdodges, and we had to walk 12 miles, uphill, in the snow just to play, and ...

 

[GHNeko]

I said we can leave the water moves alone, as evidenced by my prior post. I've already conceded the point. As long as the people who main these characters are happy with them, we can leave them alone. I also noticed that some of the uses in your example were superfluous (you could have just caped Link without using FLUDD ), but I will admit that it can be used to successfully gimp given the right conditions. I have realized that if we increased the KB, the move would probably be too powerful.

That and it'd probably boost his recovery even more.

 

[M-WUZ-H3R3]

Jigglypuff's Down Tilt

This is truley Jigglypuff's most useless standard move. It is laggy, highly punishable, and it just dosn't have a use. In melee it was a fair edgeguard with little potential for a sucessful gimp, and is used the same way in brawl+ due to the non-auto sweetspotted ledges. However, the move still has no true use and is better left untouched in a match because it will only leave you open.

These are some practical ways d-tilt can be improved in brawl+:
1.) A bigger hitbox; disjointed under the foot vertically as far as snake's u-tilt is horizontally. (or farther)
2.) Moar horizontal knockback.
3.) Less startup, and ending lag.
4.) The ability to juggle an opponent. (shieks f-tilt or fox's u-tilt)
5.) Moar damage inflcted.
6.) The ability to trip an opponent 50%-80% of the time.
7.) The ability to spike an opponent in the air.
8.) The ability to spike an opponent on an edge. (ike's d-tilt)
9.) Some combo potential into other moves.
10.) Moar hitstun.
11.) Super armour frames.

This next list is for the lulz. Please do not consider the following ideas.
Impractical ways in brawl+ to fill the void for my erotic dreams:
1.) 1HITKO
2.) An infinite amount of hitstun
3.) Faster than rest. (No startup frames. No ending lag)
4.) Super sized hitbox. (this size or bigger)

5.) 5 seconds of hitlag.
6.) D-tilt gives final smash power.
7.) D-tilt heals all your damage.
8.) Inflict 999 damage on an opponent.
9.) Auto win.
10.) Makes opponent trip anywhere on the stage.

I hope you consider improving this move using one or more of the ideas on this list.

EDIT: The top list is serious. Those are suggestions of what would be practical for an improved d-tilt. The bottom list is a joke.

 

[DemonFart]

make meta-knights special down a decent kill move!

oh yes because everyone wants metaknight to get even better right?

This is truley Jigglypuff's most useless standard move. It is laggy, highly punishable, and it just dosn't have a use. In melee it was a fair edgeguard with little potential for a sucessful gimp, and is used the same way in brawl+ due to the non-auto sweetspotted ledges. However, the move still has no true use and is better left untouched in a match because it will only leave you open.

These are some practical ways d-tilt can be improved in brawl+:
1.) A bigger hitbox; disjointed under the foot vertically as far as snake's u-tilt is horizontally. (or farther)
2.) Moar horizontal knockback.
3.) Less startup, and ending lag.
4.) The ability to juggle an opponent. (shieks f-tilt or fox's u-tilt)
5.) Moar damage inflcted.
6.) The ability to trip an opponent 50%-80% of the time.
7.) The ability to spike an opponent in the air.
8.) The ability to spike an opponent on an edge. (ike's d-tilt)
9.) Some combo potential into other moves.
10.) Moar hitstun.
11.) Super armour frames.

Impractical ways in brawl+ to fill the void for my erotic dreams:
1.) 1HITKO
2.) An infinite amount of hitstun
3.) Faster than rest. (No startup frames. No ending lag)
4.) Super sized hitbox. (this size or bigger)

5.) 5 seconds of hitlag.
6.) D-tilt gives final smash power.
7.) D-tilt heals all your damage.
8.) Inflict 999 damage on an opponent.
9.) Auto win.
10.) Makes opponent trip anywhere on the stage.

I hope you consider improving this move using one or more of the ideas on this list.

wow dude...that is win.

if brawl+ made Dtilt that great....screw PT and wario and everyone else.
that would be sexier then a knee or a falcon punch by a lot.

we need a campaign for this

 

[Metatitan]

d tilt should be better, but dont go too extreme M or no1 will take u seriously

 

[Zodac]

oh yes because everyone wants metaknight to get even better right?

considering the massive amount of nerfs his going to get (his 3 best moves are now hugely nerfed already) the least we could do is buff his basically useless moves.
When was the last time you used special down as an attack?
I think it should have the knockback of his original downsmash before the nerf, only an idiot would get hit with it anyway.

and if you want to buff jiggs' ground moves you'll have to do all of them cause they are all ****

 

[JCaesar]

MK (even with the nerfs) and Jiggs are already extremely good in B+, they don't need any buffs whatsoever.

 

[Veril]

Sing refreshes Jigglypuff's jumps.
Ganon Up tilt is a decent edge guarding tool, just takes timing.
They aren't useless, and pertain their effectiveness in Brawl+.
Brawl+ requests should go in the plusery thread.

Sing DOES NOT refresh jumps in brawl+. Not that that was even important in vbrawl.

 

[M-WUZ-H3R3]

d tilt should be better, but dont go too extreme M or no1 will take u seriously

I wasn't going extreme, I was putting good ideas that they could use. (The top list is serious)

But yes organizer's of this project, d-tilt should be better

But I understand, I fixed the post so people don't accualty make it that broken )

 

[cman]

6.) The ability to trip an opponent 50%-80% of the time.

I really dislike the random trip moves. How about they trip when you use a tripping move on an opponent whose % is an odd number, or something along those lines? Make it into an actual useful game mechanic.