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Feelings on MK and the MK ban after Apex

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John12346

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I think the player who is playing better at any given moment of a round will have the least amount of percentage compared to his opponent. Do you agree?
But is it possible to keep a lead against MK throughout the entire length of a match? 2 if you're playing out a set?

And what is that supposed to mean? "They're JAPAN"

If you really think that's a satisfactory answer you just lost a lot of credibility.
Ugh, protip, lrn2joke around on the Internet. There are reasons, but I don't remember what they were at the moment.

If you want some random other factors that are JUST as likely as their ruleset being the reason for them being better than us, there's always:
- They have excellent Wifi.
- They don't compete for money in tournament play.
- They don't play super campy gay with Meta Knight, rather aggro.

3 right off the top of my head. I don't know if any of those are actually correct, but I'd say they're just as likely as the claim that their ruleset was the cause of their dominance over us.
 

Sorto

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Well, I was gonna explain why each facet of these stages are merely counterpick qualities and completely fine to be used in competitive play, but we seem to already semi-agree on that point, and kinda...


...disagree on this point.


Just to get this out of the way, off the top of my head, stages are banned for:
- permanent walkoffs(Delfino only has temporary)
- random, uncontrollable factors(in the case of Frigate, you need to go in prepared for both phases of the stage, and Brinstar's acid is NOT random)
- super damaging/high knockback hazards


Japan being better than us in Brawl != Japan having the superior ruleset.

There are plenty of other explanations that exist to explain why Japan trounced us at Apex, aside from "they practiced under a superior ruleset," with the predominant one being that they're JAPAN, but there were some other explanations that I can't remember atm, ask other people.
But that because you are just reading a rule list and repeating it to me. Why are permant walk offs banned but not non permanants? All the non permant walk off does is promote stalling (which is banned) during the walk off?

Why is the lava not damaging enough?

In frigate each side helps different characters. So it is random which character will be helped unless you char is good on both sides. Its like choosing a random stage between stages, a lot of the outcome depends on luck. Why is that not random enough?

Whyallow levels that shift matchup odds so much? Why is that not ban criteria?

You explained there ban criteria, but not that it is right. See what I am saying?

And better ruleset does not make better players. But then its either its practice or something else. If you can get better then get there and see if mk is still bannable then.

:phone:
 

The Ben

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I explained this, maybe kinda sorta poorly in the other thread, but "They're Japan" is actually a legit answer. It isn't because they're Japanese though, it's because Japanese players have easier access to proper practice. Because they're all close together they're developing their skills simultaneously and learning faster. The American community is spread out and not necessarily learning as a cohesive unit where any breakthrough in Japan spreads quickly. Commuting around America is expensive and hard, commuting around Japan is actually not that costly.
 

zmx

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But is it possible to keep a lead against MK throughout the entire of a match? 2 if you're playing out a set?


Ugh, protip, lrn2joke around on the Internet. There are reasons, but I don't remember what they were at the moment.

If you want some random other factors that are JUST as likely as their ruleset being the reason for them being better than us, there's always:
- They have excellent Wifi.
- They don't compete for money in tournament play.
- They don't play super campy gay with Meta Knight, rather aggro.

3 right off the top of my head. I don't know if any of those are actually correct, but I'd say they're just as likely as the claim that their ruleset was the cause of their dominance over us.
And who says those very factors aren't being discussed? No one is saying they are better SOLELY due to their stage list. Most think it's a combination of that and what you said above. I'm all for tournys where the only cost is the venue as I'm sure are many judging from the posts.

Your post obv. wasn't a joke. You don't make a broad unexplained statement like that in the middle of what you obviously think is a compelling argument and expect it helps your case instead of hinders it.

It's the same thing you did in the post you linked. You had some points with at least some reason and facts behind them and then at the end you were all "plus guize MK is so BORING to watch ban him plz". It's hard to take you seriously when you do that. I mean if you don't want to be taken seriously that's more than fine.
 

John12346

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But that because you are just reading a rule list and repeating it to me. Why are permant walk offs banned but not non permanants? All the non permant walk off does is promote stalling (which is banned) during the walk off?
Because there's nothing wrong with two people not wanting to approach each other for a measly 15 seconds if they don't want to. A few short timeframes of no conflict is fine in a campy-as-hell game like Brawl.

Besides, we see whole minutes on end wasted on PS1 because of the Fire and Rock transformations, as well as Castle Siege's second phase. Should we ban those stages too...?

Why is the lava not damaging enough?
It does like 15% damage, doesn't kill until around 180%, and most importantly, it isn't random and you can see it coming up from the background if you forgot the timing anyway.

In frigate each side helps different characters. So it is random which character will be helped unless you char is good on both sides. Its like choosing a random stage between stages, a lot of the outcome depends on luck. Why is that not random enough?
Being comprised of two stages is not bannable criteria. As I said, you need to go into that stage prepared to play on both sections, or else you shouldn't be picking it at all. Once again, this parallels to PS1; it has 5 bloody stages on it, and we couldn't care less about that stage either(this includes Melee, mind you, where the degree of randomness is a lot worse, because it doesn't use the cycle system, either).

Whyallow levels that shift matchup odds so much? Why is that not ban criteria?
Because we feel that being able to pick stages to shift a matchup in your favor, as well as properly react to your opponent's selection of counterpick stage and character are skills that CAN be tested in this game.

The problem lies in whether or not we actually want to test it at this point.

It's the same thing you did in the post you linked. You had some points with at least some reason and facts behind them and then at the end you were all "plus guize MK is so BORING to watch ban him plz". It's hard to take you seriously when you do that.
W/e, I was joking around in that one instance, though, because I didn't really have any legitimate reason until about 10 minutes after I posted it.

Nevertheless, in the one case you're talking about, I sure hope you're also remembering how I made it a point to mention that hype killing was one of the driving forces behind voters who voted yes to the ban and do not frequent Metagame and Ruleset, considering they wouldn't have much else information to go off of... anyway.
 

zmx

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"Should we ban those stages too...?"

Why not? The whole point of those transformation are wasted since barely anyone actually fights on them. So essentially there's not much point in CPing them in the first place.

For instance, as Olimar one might CP castle siege due to the second transformation. It seems like a good idea until you realize any smart player can just wait it out on the top platforms.

Edit:

You've never met me IRL either or even seen some of the posts I make in other sections.
I'm not very serious at all usually. However, when I want at least my argument to be taken seriously I tend to present it in a serious manner.
 

Ghostbone

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Sorto, in a lot of your posts you're confusing stalling with camping.

Camping during a transformation is just that, camping, it's not stalling, it's not broken, it's not banned.
IDC is stalling, it essentially prevents the opponent from interacting with you.
There's a difference.
 

Omni

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But is it possible to keep a lead against MK throughout the entire length of a match? 2 if you're playing out a set?
Lol, why ask a question you already know the answer to?Of course it's possible and I'm sure it has happened on many of occasions. This isn't as uncommon as you would think considering the fact that MK doesn't have projectiles and can't inflict percentage at a distance.
 

zmx

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Even though stalling banned it's such a vague term that I don't think anyone's actually been DQed because of it.

Is MK continuously jumping around on the top platform of BF stalling? You decide.
 

John12346

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Lol, why ask a question you already know the answer to?Of course it's possible and I'm sure it has happened on many of occasions. This isn't as uncommon as you would think considering the fact that MK doesn't have projectiles and can't inflict percentage at a distance.
But in 100% of his matches? I'm not sure about the skill level of the opponent, but given a theoretical infinite amount of matches, he's going to gain the lead at least once.

What I'm saying is that I don't think telling someone to "not lose the lead for two matches straight" is a reasonable expectation of any player...
 

Omni

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But in 100% of his matches? I'm not sure about the skill level of the opponent, but given a theoretical infinite amount of matches, he's going to gain the lead at least once.

What I'm saying is that I don't think telling someone to "not lose the lead for two matches straight" is a reasonable expectation of any player...
Huh?

Obviously. My point is that if you don't give MK the % lead then he can't do that supercrazygaystuff SFP was referring to. Thus, retaining the life lead is a viable strategy to preventing that tactic.

Yes, it's not reasonable. It was in reference to SFP saying that Metaknight could just shark/scrooge for 8 minutes. Yes, it's possible for players to this, but this does not happen within a reasonable realm. He also suggested that it could not be stopped and thus I presented him with a way to prevent it.

What characters "could" do and what they do within a realm of reason are two different things.
 

Cassio

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Unrelated, slightly: my personal opinion on that game is that m2k slept on ROB at first. Had he scrooged/ran away all game during game 1, he had multiple chances to camp like **** and win.
I dont think its a fair statement to make. According to FOW M2K was going for timeouts in all his sets, even before Ocean. He really wanted to win. He timed out Z twice too. He was playing gay against rich but lost. You can say that he wasnt doing the best he could to be gay, but that wasnt necessarily from lack of trying. According to M2K, the reason his gay tactics didnt work on ROB is because he couldnt handle his projectiles. He also said that hes had more success being aggro on characters with projectiles.
I have a bit of an important question, then.

The justification behind banning of Brinstar/RC/Delfino/Frigate:

Is it because of Meta Knight's existence, or because they're all janky stages? This is directed at anyone who wants to limit the stages and keep MK legal.
John Ive had this discussion before, but like I told twinkie its not something people care much about. Ill try to respond to anything here though.

The justification for banning brinstar/RC/delfino/Frigate imo is that our ruleset has made them uncompetitive. Item removal created a long list of issues that required surgical fixes and the banning stages.
 

dextasmurf

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I wonder wut team will dominate with MK gone ( in terms of characters and players)..

My thoughts:
razor- Gnes
Boss-Logic
Esam-MVD
 

Cygnet

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Compared to the Japanese, we obviously have a super liberal stage list, which results in sets like:

- Game 1: Pretty neutral game on a starter. Players A and B have fairly equal chances to win, assuming they are evenly matched in skill and MU. Assume A wins.
- Game 2: B's counterpick - because our stage list is more liberal than Japan's, B has a higher chance of winning this game just because of the stage, so let's assume B wins.
- Game 3: A's counterpick - A wins for the same reason B won game 2.

Really, B's counterpick only serves to nullify A's wins, and whoever wins the very first game has a high chance of winning the set because stages serve as a factor. Whoever loses Game 1 can only win the set if he beats the winner on the winner's CP. Which is hard, playing uphill. We might as well be playing sets of 1 game.

But if you live in Japan, every game is equal; same odds of winning every game. You still have to stay on your toes even if you win game 1, and if you lost game 1, it's not hopeless yet.

Doesn't that make Brawl a more competitive game? (More valid, even games mean that the set more accurately determines which player is better.)

There are plenty of other explanations that exist to explain why Japan trounced us at Apex, aside from "they practiced under a superior ruleset."
Why is this not valid enough to be...... enough?
 

Dr. Tuen

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Compared to the Japanese, we obviously have a super liberal stage list, which results in sets like:

- Game 1: Pretty neutral game on a starter. Players A and B have fairly equal chances to win, assuming they are evenly matched in skill and MU. Assume A wins.
- Game 2: B's counterpick - because our stage list is more liberal than Japan's, B has a higher chance of winning this game just because of the stage, so let's assume B wins.
- Game 3: A's counterpick - A wins for the same reason B won game 2.

Really, B's counterpick only serves to nullify A's wins, and whoever wins the very first game has a high chance of winning the set because stages serve as a factor. Whoever loses Game 1 can only win the set if he beats the winner on the winner's CP. Which is hard, playing uphill. We might as well be playing sets of 1 game.

But if you live in Japan, every game is equal; same odds of winning every game. You still have to stay on your toes even if you win game 1, and if you lost game 1, it's not hopeless yet.

Doesn't that make Brawl a more competitive game?



Why is this not valid enough to be...... enough?
I feel like the counter argument to this would be "oh, well you're GIVING other characters their counterpicks as neutrals".

To me, this just says that the MU ratio will just change. IC's and Diddy will now inherently have better match ups. That's it. The tier list will probably change because of it, and I personally think that's fine. We need people to struggle against real character strengths in order to get better.
 

erbanez

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I think that APEX really told a lot more about America vs. Japan rather than MK. Americans are lazy. Americans think they are the best. They are not expecting to lose. MK is overplayed in the USA. I am an American.
 

Ghostbone

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The justification for banning brinstar/RC/delfino/Frigate imo is that our ruleset has made them uncompetitive. Item removal created a long list of issues that required surgical fixes and the banning stages.
I'm still confused that you guys want to ban Delfino when even Japan has it legal.
 

Judo777

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Yea. It's just a national. Showing us twice in a row that Japan can best us with two different Olimar's, an MK, and somehow keep our huge Top 3 contenders out of that range.

Nothing special about that. Derp.

And can you guys please stop johning for M2K. Everyone new Ocean was coming in advance. He had time to prepare just like the Japanese had time to prepare for Esam, Marths, Diddy, etc.

You don't see any of the Japanese losing to random midtiers.

:phone:
Yea he could have got in AT LEAST 12 hours of lvl 3 rob practice to prep..............

Also it must be nice playing in Japan and getting to play on 1 of my best 3 stages game 1 if I play any of half of the top 8 characters in the game (that aren't MK). It also must be nice to fly to Japan and have all the stages that I play on made the standard stage set (although thats not entirely what happened but close to it).
 

John12346

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Ghostbone is pro-ban, last I checked, but he caught something that everyone overlooked completely.

Japan has Delfino legal, but both sides, pro-ban and anti-ban, forgot that fact. And, I don't want to play any blame games, but there were a few of you trying to bash Delfino off as a janky stage just because you thought Japan didn't have it legal... I think we call that a kneejerk reaction or something, idk.

I'm not going to make a case out of this, but if someone else wants to, they're free to go right on ahead.
 

B.A.M.

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FYI for everyone in this thread, theres is no reason to be debating with ShadowLink. That dude is a moron and knows nothing about this game. If theres anyone to debate with, itd be John Numbers. I may not agree with some of the ways he has gone about his argument, but i respect his opinion and effort in this whole matter. Shadow is just a troll.

@ zmx: You mash jump to footstool MKs uair if he himself is mashing uairs. Now if theyre timed then it gets tricky. However in the planking scenario, the footstool is guaranteed when utilizing the shield push off. Seriously everyone should have figured this tech out by now. Run to the edge when they grab it, and hold shield forward on control stick and back on the cstick. If they hit your shield then you can buffer aerial and then get stage spiked, or spiked or u can even footstool. If they dont do a thing then u roll backwards.

Larry does this already. Its freakin easy, and stops MK planking. So please people make up a better excuse as to why MK is broken. There is a foolproof tech to defend against it already that EVEN FALCO CAN DO SAFELY. I mean the fact that a Falco main has been doing this for a bit now and theres other character *****ing about it is flat out hilarious.

Level up people.

@Judo: You do understand your statement on stages goes both way right? that our stage selection is as arbitrary as theirs? That we couldve started with FD SV BF as our starters with a couple CPs? You say MK is getting nerfed, I say hes getting Debuffed. We both could be right; although from a Fighting Game standpoint my claim would have more historical pull. Stages should never have such a huge effect in a fighter in the first place. Thats how its been since the beginning. And its because of them overstepping their influence why an amazing character like MK can become broken in certain scenarios and we end up where we are today.

@Everyone: Continue to babble about Nietono losing to a MK please. One who is absolutely amazing, AND with this GF set has beaten Nietono a grand total of twice.

Otori isnt some random MK from Japan; hes one of their best. And this fool had been getting ***** his entire brawl career vs Nietono, getting better and better. Give credit where credit is due.
 

Thino

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Ghostbone is pro-ban, last I checked, but he caught something that everyone overlooked completely.

Japan has Delfino legal, but both sides, pro-ban and anti-ban, forgot that fact. And, I don't want to play any blame games, but there were a few of you trying to bash Delfino off as a janky stage just because you thought Japan didn't have it legal... I think we call that a kneejerk reaction or something, idk.

I'm not going to make a case out of this, but if someone else wants to, they're free to go right on ahead.
I wasn't aware of this bashing, as I didn't really read lots of my fellow anti-bans posts around.

I'm not part of this because in general I dislike putting Japan on any kind of pedestal in terms of skill even of the distance johns and the "Japanese people dont play for money" johns seem kinda legit.

But I still think, as obvious as it may seem, that both communities are different, play the game differently, and it doesn't have change especially when it's been mentioned that the cause of Japan's win over the U.S might not have been only and simply the differences in our rulesets.
 

John12346

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Seriously everyone should have figured this tech out by now. Run to the edge when they grab it, and hold shield forward on control stick and back on the cstick. If they hit your shield then you can buffer aerial and then get stage spiked, or spiked or u can even footstool. If they dont do a thing then u roll backwards.
From what I'm getting from this video, ISSDI inputs must be inputted during the actual shield lag, as in holding towards the ledge the entire time does nothing when MK actually decides to Uair your shield. In order to fall off the stage, you must slam the control stick towards or down-towards the ledge in order to fall off the stage. The issue here is that, shield lag from a Uair lasts 6 frames, and reacting to it in 7 frames(1 frame of startup on Uair) is a crazy feat to expect, so we can only guess when MK's gonna pull out that Uair(as a tradeoff, however, MK will not have any invincibility to work with when he inputs his second Uair, because he'll be using it to change up the timing of his ledge moves).

The problem here is that, if you misjudge when MK is going to throw out his first Uair, you're going to end up inputting a roll towards the ledge, or a spotdodge, which leaves you wide open for some punishment on MK's end, because Uair doesn't have all that much endlag, as we all know...

There's also the case that MK decides to use, say, Fair or Nado, for example, because you'll ISSDI right off the stage and into his attack. Not fun. :(

If we could just hold our control stick towards the ledge, and end up falling off the stage when our shield got hit while holding the control stick like that, then yeah, MK's planking wouldn't be broken in the slightest, but we can't react to it at all...

I thought I should just point it out.

But I still think, as obvious as it may seem, that both communities are different, play the game differently, and it doesn't have change especially when it's been mentioned that the cause of Japan's win over the U.S might not have been only and simply the differences in our rulesets.
Yeah, I feel that there other factors that we can look into aside from ruleset, considering I'm pro-ban and all that, but... I can't be sure if my reasoning is right or not at this point, either. It could've been their ruleset, or it could've been their culture, great internet, high pop. density, etc. that caused their dominance over us at Apex.

It all needs to be looked into, but I'm kinda hesitant on taking a stance in this particular argument, hence why I've merely been asking questions all over the place when Japan comes up as the topic.
 

Ghostbone

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nevermind then, I thought you were pro-ban
I am as John#s said, just trying to understand things from Anti-ban's side atm.


@John, the way I understand it is, you can buffer the ledge thing in such a way that if he doesn't attack you you'll roll backwards, and if he does you'll slide off and buffer the punish, so it's relatively safe.
There's the problem of if he does nair, fair or even tornado I guess, but it does limit his options.
 

Ghostbone

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Can you?

What would the inputs be? Possibly hold towards on control stick, hit away on Cstick?
Yea, afaik if you hold forward, then hit c-stick back while in shield-lag, you'll ISSDI backwards, then ISSDI forwards, and the control stick SDI goes further or something so you slide off the edge.
 

John12346

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I'll test it tomorrow, but I'm pretty sure Control Stick ISSDI and Cstick ISSDI move the same length, because Control Stick inputs represent "direction," and Cstick inputs merely represent "direction + attack," so why would there be a difference, right?
 

SaveMeJebus

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I'm like 100% sure that doing what BAM said buffers a grab if MK hits your shield (which is useless in this situation)
 

Luigisama

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I'm not sure if this was brought up, but Brinstar and Rainbow cruise were banned for apex. I wonder if this would have affected some matches like Nairo v.s Otori/nietono or
M2k v.s Ocean or Orion v.s Kakera. These stages could have affected the Japanese if they were legal IE Orion cps Rainbow against Kakera's Ics. Regardless the japanese can read.
 

Cygnet

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I'm like 100% sure that doing what BAM said buffers a grab if MK hits your shield (which is useless in this situation)
That's probably if you used the C-stick to do it, which triggers that roll/grab option select, but the video in question says that you use the control stick.

What is the criteria for being banned? A lot of people are suggesting brokenness or overcentralization or that everyone hates him, etc., but which ones do YOU think we should use as criteria?

I'm not sure how relevant (or even true) talking about MK's brokenness or how good the Japanese are (because who knows how they got that good?) is really.

(Personally, my criteria is that if MK's existence decreases the competitiveness of the game, then he should be banned.)

I think that it's not about emulating Japan in order to be as good as they are or even that they beat us; I think that their victory showed us some of our shortcomings and mistakes (i.e. mindset, ruleset-questionably, etc.), which, if we had incredible foresight, we could've learned without having been destroyed at whatever tournament anyways.

We can't really fix our internet or our population density, so we should focus on what we can fix? (uhh..... probably just ruleset, I don't see anyone's mindset changing anytime soon.)

So I guess the real question is, does MK's existence make the game more or less competitive (or whatever criteria you came up with)? I don't think Japanese people need necessarily factor into this....?
 

Orion*

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M2k v.s Ocean or Orion v.s Kakera. These stages could have affected the Japanese if they were legal IE Orion cps Rainbow against Kakera's Ics. Regardless the japanese can read.
kakera ditto'd me regardless. i honestly think if RC was legal i would have had a larger chance at winning sadly though. garbage *** stage.

Ghostbone is pro-ban, last I checked, but he caught something that everyone overlooked completely.

Japan has Delfino legal, but both sides, pro-ban and anti-ban, forgot that fact. And, I don't want to play any blame games, but there were a few of you trying to bash Delfino off as a janky stage just because you thought Japan didn't have it legal... I think we call that a kneejerk reaction or something, idk.

I'm not going to make a case out of this, but if someone else wants to, they're free to go right on ahead.
delfino is still janky regardless of it's legality in japan.
it's not the first thing i would ban though (imo castle is worse)
 

Peachy-Desu

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I agree with some Pro and Anti aspects.. but I feel as of now that MK should be banned just to help with the meta game of some of the exsisting characters. I have also noticed as of late that the tier placing are not only that of the characters strengths/weaknesses but with an added bonus of *well this character has a better MU with MK so he got placed higher!* more notable with wolfs raise haha which can be used as an example. I do agree with perhaps banning him for a short while.. and perhaps bringing him back later if we as a community feel that he is needed to further progress the meta game.

I'm sure with friendlies/MM and of course tournies featuring MK people will still be using him.. so i wouldn't go as far to say MK will die and we will suddenly fall behind with the other countries if we do hold a national and he is legal. I do think it will help with the advancement of the Mid tiers and possibly low tiers and give us a chance to re explore their options and see how we can advance them before giving up on them completely... which we kind have done now. *stares at the low tier tournies*

I'm sorry if what i'm saying doesn't make sense.. i'm just really tired atm and I hope I can clarify things at a later time.
 
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