Falco Beats Fox!!

[DtJ Jungle]

col bols been like grounded ro something haha

 

[FluxWolf]

lol pp i like the use of the term "sourspot" never heard that before

 

[Tomacawk]

colbol needs to hurry up and not be so young
i've heard sourspot many times b4 >.>

 

[jugfingers]

Looked like the sourspot of the Dair to me. That's what you'd want to try to challenge, if anything.

LOL good Falcos won't be giving good Foxes sourspot Dairs to Usmash though. I'm just ********.

and at 6:16? thats cause you dair'd too early as well right?

lol pp i like the use of the term "sourspot" never heard that before

its the opposite of a sweetspot lol.

 

[Dr Peepee]

It was an early Dair, and I think just a bad one in general lol.

 

[jugfingers]

It was an early Dair, and I think just a bad one in general lol.

the timing of that dair at 6:16 which was clearly too early must be about the same if not later than a full or double jumped dair though right?

but I guess falco's don't really approach lke tht very often.

YES, usmash oos is very good against falco, but it's so risky (yes, even in the situations you presented, try playing mango or zhu's falco).

PC using Usmash OOS against Zhu at pound 4 in pools

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aBXZXt70Ps&feature=related

1:25


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTq1H3Dm3_g&feature=related

0:50



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlCw_6Paeao&feature=related
3:10, 3:49 lol

also notice that PC spammed usmashoos alot in these matches and didn't really get punished at all for it.


silly Usmash OOS haters

anyways, Anyone have any other ideas about what JMANs secret falco slaying technique is


this is my new prediction

Powershielding out of dashdance!

 

[Deleted member]

But yeah, I guess my short answer is: it's -probably- doable, but it'd be better to avoid the Dair and punish.

wow, I already said that. amazing really.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Nothing beats Falco's Dair lolololol

Except Marth's sword.

 

[unknown522]

so...shiz beat colbol again in tourney

 

[SheerMadness]

so...shiz beat colbol again in tourney

That doesn't support the theory of this thread, you'll see when the vids come out. Shiz won 3-1. From what I remember Colbol had 2-1 stock leads in 2 of the matches he lost. Colbol vs Shiz matches are VERY even. When Colbol is on point he is probably the best vs Falco Fox in the country IMO.

Also I agree with Jugfingers... Theres a lot of PC vids out there showing him using upsmash OOS effectively vs top Falcos.

 

[jugfingers]

wow, I already said that. amazing really.

no I believe you said something to the effect of

horrible idea.

 

[JPOBS]

yea you guys are hating vs upsmash OoS but PC uses it ALL the time.

old school ftw.

 

[Lovage]

no I believe you said something to the effect of

ugh. which it IS

i dont see what ur problem is

just cuz it works doesnt mean its something u should rely on

relying on usmash oos against falco is one of the worst strategys possible

if they **** up and you can do it cleanly, go for it

but 9 times out of 10 you should just get out of the way and try to punish their landing lag instead of playing a weighted game of chance where even winning usually sucks

 

[SheerMadness]

What? I haven't read all of jugfingers posts but isn't he just saying that IF you happen to get stuck in ur shield against Falco upsmash OOS is a legit option?

I seriously doubt hes saying hit your shield and wait for Falco to approach just so you can upsmash OOS them.

 

[BigD!!!]

has shiz ever lost to a fox

 

[JPOBS]

What? I haven't read all of jugfingers posts but isn't he just saying that IF you happen to get stuck in ur shield against Falco upsmash OOS is a legit option?

I seriously doubt hes saying hit your shield and wait for Falco to approach just so you can upsmash OOS them.

this.

i mean, watching the set of PC vs PP and PC vs Zhu, he gets stuck in his sheild, and he upsmashed ALOT out of sheild. in fact, he upsmashed more than he shined oos.

and i seriously doubt its a "9 times out of 10 it wont work" thing because i dont think PP and Zhu are messing up that much/at all.

just saying.

 

[SheerMadness]

Yes. If PC can upsmash very effectively vs Zhu and PP I'm fairly certain he can do it vs any Falco out there.

And no I don't think Shiz has ever lost to a Fox in tourney. Not that I know of, and I've been playing competitive smash in FL for 4 years. Colbol has taken him to 3-2 and takes game off of him a lot but Shiz has always won I think. Their games are insanely close though.

 

[Deleted member]

What? I haven't read all of jugfingers posts but isn't he just saying that IF you happen to get stuck in ur shield against Falco upsmash OOS is a legit option?

I seriously doubt hes saying hit your shield and wait for Falco to approach just so you can upsmash OOS them.

it doesn't matter what the premises of the argument is or in what context. In a game where you have multiple options to deal with something, upsmash OOS is just a bad one. Just because PC did a bad tactic to place lower than both PP and Zhu doesn't mean we should copy him.

Even assuming your opponents are bad, how does 18% justify the risk of taking 60%? It's just a bad idea.

Fox is broken because he can choose when to attack. Abuse that instead.

 

[Charlesz]

Wait shiz is playing again? =]

 

[JPOBS]

it doesn't matter what the premises of the argument is or in what context. In a game where you have multiple options to deal with something, upsmash OOS is just a bad one. Just because PC did a bad tactic to place lower than both PP and Zhu doesn't mean we should copy him.

Even assuming your opponents are bad, how does 18% justify the risk of taking 60%? It's just a bad idea.

Fox is broken because he can choose when to attack. Abuse that instead.

that depends on your definiton of bad.

if you describe anything thats not shine out of sheild as being "bad" then sure its bad.

but the fact is, upsmash is one frame slower than grab, which means literally anything you can grab, you can also upsmash. This also means that anything that any form of pressure which beats grab, also beats upsmash. So basically, grabbing a falco is just as risky as upsmashing him, granted grab leads to more, you're kidding me if you assume all you get out a upsmash oos is the 18% and you cant follow it up.

also, shine out of sheild is dandy, but it can be stuffed by shinegrab or double shine anyway ad we've already agreed most falcos these days wont be doing extended forms of sheild pressure on fox anyway.

also, most of the time when you shine oos, its done just off the ground so you have to use DJ to cancel which gets you nothing because the falco will almost always tech it because he hit L to perform the l-cancel, and even when he doesnt tech he has time to get away. i dont see any foxes consistently staying grounded on shine oos -> thunders combo or anything like that.

Granted, no one is advocating that you should rely on or only upsmash out of sheild, however, there ARE bonuses to doing it, and its hardly any more risky than any other form of pressure escape other than shine OOS, but it yields higher rewards as well. You seem to be indirectly saying 'never ever ever upsmash out of sheild" which isnt exactly great advice in and of itself.

also, lol at the statement "Just because PC did a bad tactic to place lower than both PP and Zhu" there is no connection between pc upsmashign out of sheild and placing lower than those two players. absolutely no merit in the statement. nice try though

 

[Deleted member]

that depends on your definiton of bad.

if you describe anything thats not shine out of sheild as being "bad" then sure its bad.

I said no such thing.

but the fact is, upsmash is one frame slower than grab, which means literally anything you can grab, you can also upsmash. This also means that anything that any form of pressure which beats grab, also beats upsmash. So basically, grabbing a falco is just as risky as upsmashing him, granted grab leads to more, you're kidding me if you assume all you get out a upsmash oos is the 18% and you cant follow it up.

DI away? so you want me to sit in shield, hope that the falco is bad and gives me an opening, choose the inferior option of upsmash over a grab which even you admit will yield more damage, and then rely on said opponent to not simply DI away to escape further punishment? I dislike strategies that rely on my opponents to be bad.

also, shine out of sheild is dandy, but it can be stuffed by shinegrab or double shine anyway ad we've already agreed most falcos these days wont be doing extended forms of sheild pressure on fox anyway.

I'm advocating that fox not challenge falco's shield pressure at all, it's just too risky. I wouldn't suggest shine out of shield either.

You seem to be indirectly saying 'never ever ever upsmash out of sheild" which isnt exactly great advice in and of itself.

good thing I don't speak indirectly.

also, lol at the statement "Just because PC did a bad tactic to place lower than both PP and Zhu" there is no connection between pc upsmashign out of sheild and placing lower than those two players. absolutely no merit in the statement. nice try though

Use bad tactics, place worse. Seems like a relatively simple concept to me.

 

[SheerMadness]

It sounds like you're saying a Fox should never get stuck in their shield vs a Falco. Every Fox in the world gets stuck in their shield vs a good Falco at some point so I really don't understand the logic of your argument.

Don't challenge Falco's shield pressure? What do you suggest then? Rolling or wavedashing out? I'm pritty sure shining OOS is a hell of a lot better than either of those options.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

usmash OoS has more range than grab, though. In many cases, people will space themselves from your shield so they can't be grabbed, but will still be in range for usmash. Also, his feet are invincible while he is usmashing. Combine those with the fact that no falco shield pressure can be perfect (meaning there is always a frame-hole somewhere) and you will find that usmash OoS is a pretty good option if you use it in the proper situations.

 

[Moooose]

rolling is okay sometimes

 

[Deleted member]

It sounds like you're saying a Fox should never get stuck in their shield vs a Falco. Every Fox in the world gets stuck in their shield vs a good Falco at some point so I really don't understand the logic of your argument.

Don't challenge Falco's shield pressure? What do you suggest then? Rolling or wavedashing out? I'm pritty sure shining OOS is a hell of a lot better than either of those options.

personally I prefer light shielding and letting the dair make me slide out. it eliminates both shield pressure and any shield stab risk, as well as resets the match to a neutral position. if falco is going to dair your shield, it means he's probably in a better position to start with, so that solves both problems. the slide also puts me out of grab range, so that mix-up is eliminated.

I suggest using fox's broken aspect, which is the ability to choose when to attack. A fox that does not choose when to attack is not playing a broken character. Falco is not as fast as fox in any way, so platform camp or just jump around the dair until you can gain the upper hand or take priority from above, an approach falco is much weaker at covering.

edit: falco shield pressure doesn't have to be perfect all the time, but fox's defenses against it do have to be perfect since the risk is so large. that alone should show you why it is a bad idea to challenge it.

 

[joeplicate]

attacking out of shield-



don't rely on it

 

[forward]

I'm advocating that fox not challenge falco's shield pressure at all, it's just too risky. I wouldn't suggest shine out of shield either.

You have to challenge it at some point just so you don't become predictable. If you always roll/lightshield/jump the Falco will catch on eventually and punish you. Attacking with shine/upsmash OOS keeps them in check. If they fear those attacks, they will bait them. When they bait them is your chance to escape shield pressure and look for another opening.

 

[jugfingers]

i dont see what ur problem is

just cuz it works doesnt mean its something u should rely on
.

I think there is a misunderstanding here. I never said you should rely on it, I just said its good in certain situations against falco.

Just because PC did a bad tactic to place lower than both PP and Zhu doesn't mean we should copy him.
.

.......lol what?

PC(fox) beat both Zhu(falco) and PP(falco) in the matches I posted using said "bad tactic".....this is a fox vs falco thread

PC Chris lost to a fox(JMan) and a falcon(Hax$) at pound 4

PC Chris did not lost to any falcos at pound 4

I'm advocating that fox not challenge falco's shield pressure at all, it's just too risky. I wouldn't suggest shine out of shield either.

.

the only time you shouldn't use shine oos is if falco is multishining, if he is pressuring with something else why wouldn't you shine oos (or upsmash oos if he is shine dair pressuring)
to get either a free shine and be instantly at a minor advantage, or upsmash if falco jumps out of the shine, as apparently pc chris showed vs zhu is very viable, and be at a major advantage.







usmash OOS is about punishing errors in falcos approach.

Im not in anyway advocating turtling in your shield then waiting for falco to approach and then upsmashing oos

obviously you should never try to shield grab a falco, but usmash doesn't rely on the falco messing up technically, there is no risk if you do it in the right situation, it simplies relies on you being aware of when you can and cannot usmash out of shield and timing it properly, its not a gamble.

saying usmash oos is a risk is like saying grabbing falco is a risk, cause I mean if your not fast enough falco will just shine right before you get to him and then combo you to death.


bottomline is that usmash is an overpowered overly fast move and there is alot of opportunities playing falcos do get free usmashes cause falco is usually jumping around your shield a bunch doing dairs and stuff.



obviously in a perfect world fox should never be in his shield cause he's too busy o-death comboing or shieldbreak shield pressuring but in reality foxes aren't at this point yet and at the moment top falcos are beating top foxes, so all im saying is that it iis a **** move that fox has over falco which can be used to defend against falco's shield pressure, it would probably be really good against the way mango pressures because he spaces his aerials specifically to avoid getting shield grabbed, but judging by the range on the usmash oos in the last match of pc vs zhu that I posted it probably would be good against the mango style shield pressure.

again im not advocating this as an offensive move, im saying its a good defensive move
and if your playing a top falco your going to find yourself in a defensive position.
,

You have to challenge it at some point just so you don't become predictable. If you always roll/lightshield/jump the Falco will catch on eventually and punish you. Attacking with shine/upsmash OOS keeps them in check. If they fear those attacks, they will bait them. When they bait them is your chance to escape shield pressure and look for another opening.

hooray, forward logic to the rescue.

 

[Deleted member]

You have to challenge it at some point just so you don't become predictable. If you always roll/lightshield/jump the Falco will catch on eventually and punish you. Attacking with shine/upsmash OOS keeps them in check. If they fear those attacks, they will bait them. When they bait them is your chance to escape shield pressure and look for another opening.

you yourself said that good falcos don't pillar much. I don't think the predictability thing would be that problematic.

 

[KirbyKaze]

jugfingers, your entire post was stupid.

 

[jugfingers]

jugfingers, your entire post was stupid.

specifically though..... what specifically about my post was stupid.


*umashesoos*

 

[KirbyKaze]

Okay.

usmash OOS is about punishing errors in falcos approach.

You note usmash OOS only works on mistakes.

Im not in anyway advocating turtling in your shield then waiting for falco to approach and then upsmashing oos

This makes sense.

obviously you should never try to shield grab a falco, but usmash doesn't rely on the falco messing up technically, there is no risk if you do it in the right situation, it simplies relies on you being aware of when you can and cannot usmash out of shield and timing it properly, its not a gamble.

You've just said (in first quote) you need them to make a mistake but then you say it doesn't rely on them messing up their execution. That makes no sense. So it relies on them making a poor decision? Oh but if they do the wrong move properly I guess it doesn't count as messing up execution? Alright whatever. Moving on...

You continue by noting it's not a risk if you do it at the right time, which would logically be "when they make a mistake". Okay, but what if they don't make a mistake? Sorry, it's not a mistake -- what if they don't pick the wrong move but still execute properly? Moreover, it sounds like there's a dependency on them making a mistake for this to be an option. So are you waiting for them to make a mistake in your shield? Because you already ruled that out as a good idea in the second quote. Or do you just assume automatically that there will be a mistake to punish?

This paragraph is entirely baffling to me. Maybe I'm just reading it poorly but it doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever.

Shine OOS and usmash OOS are also not comparable at all, btw, because Shine OOS is twice as fast and has complete invincibility, and hits behind him.

 

[Deleted member]

Shine OOS and usmash OOS are also not comparable at all, btw, because Shine OOS is twice as fast and has complete invincibility, and hits behind him.

and has reliable follow-up options on the tech if you WD out of the shine (not hard).

 

[Dynamism?]

specifically though..... what specifically about my post was stupid.

You could have said it all in much fewer words, that's all.

Maybe I'm just reading it poorly but it doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever.

You do this a lot, by 'this' I mean 'not understand and say something doesn't make sense or is dumb' when things actually do make sense and are completely accurate. Just ask to explain more or something. You often come across really negative and 'stupid' [you would probably say], with your pointless posts like the one previous to this. You're smarter than that and we know it, but seriously, wtf. LOL

And you're just reading into this WAY too much.
Usmash OOS is good sometimes, just like everything.

Use it when it's called for, Falco's WILL change up their pressure once out of who knows HOW many times simply by trying to mess up their shielding opponent. So Usmash when they mix it up in a way that leaves that as an option. Chances are if you never Usmash OOS, EVER, they will leave that oppening (especially if they see you trying to Shine OOS every time, leaving the appropriate spacing etc, but whatever else might come up too) so everything Foward said is 100% true. If they mess up, that's just a bonus, who cares? Usmash them if they do, don't if they don't, whatever.

Don't rule out Usmash OOS.
I've heard and seen roughly 10 people ranging from general decent players to great players that it works specifically on Mango when called upon, with more than just Fox, who has a freakin good Usmash as everyone knows. You even posted right after shroomed when he said it. Was he LYING? :O LMAO edit: nvm that was unknown I think :\
It'll work on others too. It's a good move, stop being so litteral and take things with a grain of salt sometimes. It's a discussion thread, jeeeeeez

and has reliable follow-up options on the tech if you WD out of the shine (not hard).

For sure, that's kind of the purpose aside from being the quickest attack OOS.
Wonderful, isn't it? :D




carry on...

 

[dieslow]

imo its 55/45 in fox's favour, but u have to really be on point cause its easier for falco to get off automatic combos. must be pretty **** aggro especially off the stage.

lol just read eggm 's post, says exactly what i just posted

 

[jugfingers]

You've just said (in first quote) you need them to make a mistake but then you say it doesn't rely on them messing up their execution. That makes no sense. So it relies on them making a poor decision?

by error I meant pressuring with a combination of attacks into your shield that can be punished with an usmash oos shield (i.e pillar)

not a technical error in execution.


in every match many mistakes(poor decisions) are made by both players no matter who they are, its just about identifying those mistakes and punishing them appropriately.

and due to recent video evidence of PC Chris against top falcos it appears that certain shield pressure and methods of approach with falco are poor decisions because of their vulnerability to be punished by usmash oos

Oh but if they do the wrong move properly I guess it doesn't count as messing up execution?

if a player intends to do something, no it doesn't count as messing up execution lol....

You continue by noting it's not a risk if you do it at the right time, which would logically be "when they make a mistake". Okay, but what if they don't make a mistake? Sorry, it's not a mistake -- what if they don't pick the wrong move but still execute properly?

oh you mean like this??? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aBXZXt70Ps

1:26

notice that zhu did not make a technical error all he did was dair into a shine and then sh out intending to do another dair to shine he Intended to sh out of his shine
is this a mistake? certainly. technical error in execution...no, unless he was trying to execute the not get upsmashed technique



even better example

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTq1H3Dm3_g&feature=related

0:50!!


he even gets hit with a small part of the dair but it doesn't matter because Upsmash>falcos aerials

it sounds like there's a dependency on them making a mistake for this to be an option. So are you waiting for them to make a mistake in your shield? Because you already ruled that out as a good idea in the second quote. Or do you just assume automatically that there will be a mistake to punish?

you don't assume anything, you just watch what they do and then react, if they do something that isn't punishable by usmashoos then you do something else... again I'm not advocating randomly usmashingoos everytime a falco attacks your shield.

Shine OOS and usmash OOS are also not comparable at all, btw, because Shine OOS is twice as fast and has complete invincibility, and hits behind him.

oh yea well upsmash has more range and is way more powerful.....lol

yea shine oos is alot safer and faster in most situations, however there are certain situations where usmash is quick enough to punish a falco hoovering over your shield....its not really that complicated, I just think you have a poor reading comprehension or something. if you don't understand what Im trying to say then just watch the videos of PC usmashing Zhu in the middle of his shield pressure its pretty self explanatory









the good thing about the upsmash is that it creates a wall of upsmash around your body.

 

[JPOBS]

DI away? so you want me to sit in shield, hope that the falco is bad and gives me an opening, choose the inferior option of upsmash over a grab which even you admit will yield more damage, and then rely on said opponent to not simply DI away to escape further punishment? I dislike strategies that rely on my opponents to be bad.

your opponent doesnt have to be bad for you to use upsmash out of sheild against them. Zhu and PP are top falcos. Falco sheild pressure by its very nature is imperfect, there is always a frame window, you're just being stubborn now.

or do you simply not understand that falco doesnt have to "give" you anything? upsmash oos flat out has frame advantages vs certain types of shield pressure (dair and nair)?

falco's perfect pillar has a 15 frame window of weakness, upsmash oos takes 8 frames. see where im going?

Sure the falco could always always multishine or shinegrab but falcos DONT. the simple fact is that even top falco do standard pillar very routinely every match.
i also think its worth nothing that as someone already mentioned, upsmash oos is a good way to deal with the mango style of retreating nairs to bait grabs because of its range.

And one last thing, as jugfingers pointed out, for all of "using bad tactics and placing worse" PC actually beat th falcos at pound, losing to a fox and a falcon. But this is falco vs fox, and yet you keep going on about how bad upsmash is and yet PC is winning games using it. get at the kid.

 

[FoxLisk]

oh you mean like this??? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aBXZXt70Ps

Also note at 2:20 where he usmashes out of shield (on a dash attack, irrelevantly), and then gets a grab out of it and stage control.

And around 3:13, where Zhu shines and then WD's backwards: this kind of forcing falco to mix up the pressure is what forward was talking about makes this option valuable.

even better example

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTq1H3Dm3_g&feature=related

0:50!!

Around :20, he messes it up. He usmashes early, and takes the dair. He doesn't get punished as much as he might have, but it wasn't a good idea.

At 2:35, he probably should have Usmashed out of shield. Falco spaced a bair high and was too far away to grab or shine, it looks like. an usmash probably would have connected, though. Zhu turned around and naired, which would have owned a whiffed grab or smash but might have traded with an usmash, for an added bonus.

Note, though, at 2:44, Zhu pulls off something beautiful. He remembers 10 seconds ago, and knows that PC had been using usmash OOS a lot. So he spaces one bair high, and then, to bait said usmash OoS, he spaces the next bair so far away that it doesnt even connect with PC's shield.

3:12 features a whiffed shield grab that i have no idea why pc went for. I would say an upsmash might have worked, but really that just wasn't a place to be challenging, i dont think.

Continuing.

In the third game:


2:28 Zhu messes up and PC shield grabs.

2:48 PC's in shield pressure and clearly messes up. He drops his shield for a few frames and does nothing. An usmash would have worked perfectly here; others would not have landed.

3:09 or so: he usmashes out of shield. Zhu had gotten in a bad situation. His options were limited because he had nowhere to WD that would get him to safety, and if he wanted to shine grab he would have had to turn around which is not necessarily something he's practiced a lot and is comfortable with. so he short hops away, which does not get him far enough. A doubleshine to cover foxes options might have been better here, and a fullhop would have put in in a somewhat bad position for a second but allow him to escape anything OoS. He SHs, though, and eats an Usmash.

and then hahahaha watch the last kill.


Anyway, it's late. Maybe tomorrow I'll go through the PC v PP matches. This is my analysis of the times when PC does or should Usmash out of shield in my opinion. Zhu doesn't adequately adapt for it and gets punished a few times. He usmashes out of shield several times. It requires little adaptation from Zhu, really - he doesn't seem to make a point of avoiding it - so that benefit seems to be negligible. It gets him punished twice, one of which comes from timing it to trade with a dair, not to break up a pillar.

Basically, this is inconclusive. It works out well a few times and gets him ****ed a few times. It makes it obvious that it can't be abused, but it is also worth looking into as an alternative to shining.

 

[jugfingers]

Around :20, he messes it up. He usmashes early, and takes the dair. He doesn't get punished as much as he might have, but it wasn't a good idea.

actually he usmashes too late in this situation, the hitbox doesn't have time to come out, lol you can tell PC is borderline spamming this when hes challenging a shffl'd dair with it.

I think even here although perhaps not the best idea, I think it would be possible if he usmashed a bit earlier, note that even in its very early stage of the animation it counters falcos dair completely and he only gets punished because he sits there for a splitsecond unsure of what to do while zhu continues to waveshine and shield pokes him with the shine. falcos Dair is def the ideal move to use this against as the UPsmash fully counters the hitbox of the Downair, unfortunately there isn't really any other character that uses their downair as much as falco .

good analysis on the matches though.

I wish PC came on smashboards more often so we could ask him about it lol.

 

[Blistering Speed]

*sigh* Can we just say Umbreon's right and move on? I haven't even read the majority of posts but I'm guessing Umbreon's right.