Falco Beats Fox!!

[Fortress | Sveet]

I agree with Blistering Speed. Being better than someone is very tangible. You can't just "believe" you can win against mango and then do it. The fact that its consistent proves that its not something that is anything near luck related, and thus no matter how much you believe in yourself, you're not better than him and won't win.

 

[AnDaLe]

I\'ll agree cuz i just saw Dr Peepees falco 3 stocked Kels fox twice in tourney.

 

[unknown522]

didn't jman lose to PP at ROM 2?

And chops at genesis?

 

[null55]

Falco isn't that good.

but he beats Fox.

51:49

 

[TheLake]

did someone mention possibilities in the form of anything?

>:O

Low blow swiftbass!

that was a good year tim

a good year!

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

didn't jman lose to PP at ROM 2?

And chops at genesis?

and chaddd at herb3 (i think?)

 

[-ACE-]

Herb 3 hasn't happened yet, I can't remember if they played at Herb 2.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

it was some southern tournament... he lost to chaddd's fox in losers finals, winner played hbox iirc

"Winterfest" -Dogysamich

Thanks :D -Sveet

 

[SwiftBass]

>:O

Low blow swiftbass!

that was a good year tim

a good year!

I hate the celtics, but **** the knicks.


lol i dunno
_ _
\ (-_-)/

 

[Dr Peepee]

Herb 3 hasn't happened yet, I can't remember if they played at Herb 2.

Chaddd didn't go to HERB 2.

 

[Animal]

irrelevant to the point he was trying to make, saying he lost to PP. and lambchops falco.

 

[unknown522]

and chaddd?

that set was funny.

 

[HoN3Y64]

Falco *****.

 

[holypho]

Fox beats Falco lol, Fox is the face of that franchise what the..... Anyway I think that falco is pretty hard for fox players becuz fox shorthops get whooped by falcos lasers and foxes full jumps get megaowned by d-air O__o

 

[-ACE-]

Chaddd didn't go to HERB 2.

Now I remember why I didn't go.

 

[ArcNatural]

I think the return of CG has to happen for Fox vs Falco.

It's a psychological edge that has not been used to it's potentional anymore. Upthrow upsmash doesn't bother any Falco, if you upthrow and they don't DI to a platform or DI properly for you to regrab or uptilt regrab instead you should.

It's not the CG itself, odds are you can get damage faster by just upthrow upsmash. But I think the psychological edge is important and underused. Not to mention that there is no real reason to not CG for the extra % in most cases unless you have them at the edge and want to go for the edgeguard. I think the Falco pillar is easier and more consistent than CG nowadays. It should be abused by Fox in this matchup as much as possible.

 

[`DNS`]

I think the return of CG has to happen for Fox vs Falco.

It's a psychological edge that has not been used to it's potentional anymore. Upthrow upsmash doesn't bother any Falco, if you upthrow and they don't DI to a platform or DI properly for you to regrab or uptilt regrab instead you should.

It's not the CG itself, odds are you can get damage faster by just upthrow upsmash. But I think the psychological edge is important and underused. Not to mention that there is no real reason to not CG for the extra % in most cases unless you have them at the edge and want to go for the edgeguard. I think the Falco pillar is easier and more consistent than CG nowadays. It should be abused by Fox in this matchup as much as possible.

Well.. it doesn't exactly work if there are any platforms.. but on FD, yes.

 

[ArcNatural]

Well.. it doesn't exactly work if there are any platforms.. but on FD, yes.

It does work on platform stages, I've seen plenty of cases where upthrow could have been CG'd on platforms/center stage and they haven't. Granted it's more escapable than Marth's due to the trajectory, but even one or two quick regrabs I think is enough to affect the mindset of your opponent throughout the match.

People already have setups for when Falco is thrown onto a platform, I'm just saying those cases where you could have CG'd even once are probably worth it mentally.

 

[`DNS`]

Yeah, if it's possible, go for it.. but on, for example, YS, you really couldn't do more than 1 unless they just don't DI for some reason, when you could've just usmashed for more damage

If you get a grab on the middle of DL or something then yeah go for it

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

What this is:
I call it a match chart. It shows the locations of all the first hits in a particular match.

What is a first hit?
A first hit is the first hit of a confrontation, which likely leads into more moves to string a combo. Because almost every melee combo involves tech chasing, following DI and has certain frames where the opponent can escape but might not, I defined a combo as any string of hits the opponent falls into that allows him less than 10 frames to shield, run, or otherwise defend himself other than teching or using "get-up" options.

Note: I did not include projectiles as a first hit, but if they were followed up I counted the follow up as a first hit.

Process:
I first drew the stage on a whiteboard as accurately as possible. I used mewtwo's rolls, which happen to be ~exactly 1/3 of the size of dreamland, to divide the stage into thirds. I used that to determine the starting and stopping points of each platform, with some minor approximations and estimations.

Next, I watched the match and marked each first hit location in marker.

Finally, I copied the stage and marks over into photoshop.

What can this show us?
This can show trends in where players (and by extension, their character) like to choose their fights. By viewing the points it should be fairly clear where certain characters have advantages (where they hit the opponent) and where they are disadvantaged (where they get hit).

Flaws in the process:
The biggest flaw is that this was done by observation alone. I looked at my gamecube screen for stage size/proportions, and I looked at the video for the instances of the hits.

The next biggest flaw would be the distortions between video to whiteboard and whiteboard to photoshop. It is difficult to get exact locations onto the whiteboard, and the distortion grows when you have to transfer the points a second time.

Another flaw would be that the points are inexact. In places where multiple conflicts occured, I put the dot slightly above or next to the one already there.

Also, I admit my photoshop image isn't the most pretty, but I don't think that takes away from the information in the slightest.




Dr. PeePee vs Lucky, Game 3


To be noted, there are 17 first hits for Dr. PeePee and 20 for Lucky. The match started late, with lucky at 51% and PP at 5%. I counted the first utilt by PP until the ending dsmash by lucky.

Note: I did not include a double hit near the end of the match where PP sh naired and lucky jabbed (afterward, PP retreated while Lucky approached with a nair), this conflict happened in the center of the stage.

Dr. PeePee got 8 platform first hits and Lucky got only 5. On the ground Dr. PeePee got 9 first hits with Lucky getting 15. The difference in numbers is because Lucky was using the platforms to evade Dr. PeePee, forcing Dr. PeePee to attack him on the platforms when possible. On the opposite end, Dr. PeePee had control of the ground level with the lasers and spent most of his time on the ground, thus being hit there more often.

So what can be concluded from this? I think it can be safely concluded that neither character is completely safe in any spot on the stage. I think its fair to say that ground level gives slight advantage to falco while fullhop/platform height gives slight advantage to fox. I think both elements are important to the total match-up, and neither is stronger than the other unless yourself as a player let it be.

 

[RaynEX]

So what can be concluded from this? I think it can be safely concluded that neither character is completely safe in any spot on the stage.

lol welcome to super smash brothers laser melee for the gamecube

Unique way of presenting match information though, Sveet.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Although I hate everything about that match, I would say it's an interesting thing to look at, Sveet.

I thought the odd blue dot on the right was pretty funny too. That's probably just me being weird though.

Edit: I like being a demonstration though.

 

[Niko45]

Left side, STRONG SIDE.

 

[RaynEX]

Although I hate everything about that match, I would say it's an interesting thing to look at, Sveet.

I thought the odd blue dot on the right was pretty funny too. That's probably just me being weird though.

Edit: I like being a demonstration though.

I bet you that lone hit was a laser.

stack it up pew pew

 

[Niko45]

This is cool tho, Sveet. To take it to the next level I would look at how many of these first hits led to knocking the opponent off stage (maybe define it by whether or not the opponent needed a side B/up B to return to the stage), and then ultimately how many first hits led to deaths. That way you can measure whether one character has an easier time getting edgeguard opportunities and their percentage of successful edgeguards.

And for punishing you could measure total damage given, then find what the average % it takes to kill each character per stock. Then score the total damage that resulted from each first hit, find the average damage given per first hit on each side and then you'd be able to see what portion the average first hit takes from the average stock lifespan (how valuable each first hit is).

 

[PK Webb]

Niko this is a videogame not a nasa course in geometrics lol

 

[ArcNatural]

Sveet that was just awesome. Major props to that.

 

[`DNS`]

i guess the right side is harder to hit on

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Although I hate everything about that match, I would say it's an interesting thing to look at, Sveet.

I thought the odd blue dot on the right was pretty funny too. That's probably just me being weird though.

Edit: I like being a demonstration though.

I bet you that lone hit was a laser.

stack it up pew pew

It was a shine OoS iirc. I didn't count lasers as first hits or else the screen would be covered in blue dots lol

This is cool tho, Sveet. To take it to the next level I would look at how many of these first hits led to knocking the opponent off stage (maybe define it by whether or not the opponent needed a side B/up B to return to the stage), and then ultimately how many first hits led to deaths. That way you can measure whether one character has an easier time getting edgeguard opportunities and their percentage of successful edgeguards.

And for punishing you could measure total damage given, then find what the average % it takes to kill each character per stock. Then score the total damage that resulted from each first hit, find the average damage given per first hit on each side and then you'd be able to see what portion the average first hit takes from the average stock lifespan (how valuable each first hit is).

Those ideas are pretty good, but its not hard to calculate with just math. For example, Lucky had 20 first hits and took 4 stocks, so it took 5 first hits on average to get each stock.

Sveet that was just awesome. Major props to that.

Thanks a lot

 

[Tomacawk]

imho falco beats fox 55-45, but mango makes it seem helpless for fox
I honestly can't see any fox beating mango's falco in a set.
jman you should just pick up falco and beat him in dittos.

 

[Charlesz]

imho falco beats fox 55-45, but mango makes it seem helpless for fox
I honestly can't see any fox beating mango's falco in a set.
jman you should just pick up falco and beat him in dittos.

Ok there bro.

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

I find that Falco dittos are a lot easier to play than Fox vs Falco, to me at least. I've stopped using Fox against Falco for the most part and just decided to ditto. Falco can use his own lame tricks against himself.

 

[BC AL]

wut about Genesis Crew Battles?
I remember Mew2King's Fox beat Mango's Falco on Corneria
Mango also had an extra stock on a side note

 

[Blistering Speed]

I think this sudden surge of Falco>Fox is just due to the use proportions. Look how many top Falcos there are compared to Foxes (seriously, it's like, Jman...and then Lucky and that's it). Add on to this the more demanding precision that Fox requires and you can see why Falcos are beating Foxes. And even then, Falcos aren't really dominated Foxes e.g. closest to memory, at Pound 4, Jman placed 5th so he must've gone through some Falcos, to be stopped by MANGO using Falco and I don't know the specifics of Lucky's placement but yes, I know he beat PP.

 

[unknown522]

at Pound 4, Jman placed 5th so he must've gone through some Falcos, to be stopped by MANGO using Falco

surprisingly, no (unless PC chris was using falco.....but I doubt it). He had 2 fox dittos early in his bracket, then plank, then mango, then amsah. He also had a bye first round

 

[_kSo_]

from what I have seen/heard, fox vs falco is pretty even at high levels of play (fox can grab combo falco and shine gimp him really easily; falco can laser camp and shine combo fox and get dair gimps) but at the average tournament player level, falco tech skill simply overwhelms fox players. I just think that the learning curve for falco is steeper than fox's, which brings a lot of people to think that "oh falco >> fox"

 

[Blistering Speed]

From my experience, Falco's easier to be technically proficient with. But yes, I'd agree that Falco beats Fox worse at anything but a high level.

Thanks unknown, didn't know that.

 

[jugfingers]

Niko this is a videogame not a nasa course in geometrics lol

Its ok to think. we are humans afterall.

 

[SwiftBass]

someone say daft punk?

 

[jugfingers]

no that wasn't a daft punk reference.