Falco Beats Fox!!

[Deleted member]

it's definitely falco and not mango. people are intelligent enough to realize his talent and treat it as an extraneous case more or less. for all relatively even player talent scenarios, falco should probably beat fox slightly in a tournament setting.

 

[BBQ°]

well i just think falco ***** fox when i play mango

theres like nothing i can do i hit his shield shine combo

i hit him low % CC shine combo wtf r u going to do and on top of that he runs from me and shoots perfect lasers so its to hard to get in and hit him

if all falcos just played fox the way mangos does the match up would deff be 60/40

I don't know much about space animals, but I'm pretty sure if you space your aerials against his shield then the shine out of shield won't hit you.

 

[Incronaut]

also practice smash DIing falcos dair, usually towards him. its easy when you know hes going to do it and it gets you out of the combo almost every time. but if he nairs it over if you smash DI in lol.

what does smash DIing falcos dair do exactly?

edit: @lovage.. i know you were probably kidding.. but doooo itttttt

 

[SheerMadness]

I think it's 50/50 maybe even a little edge to Fox.

I play Falco and I've been in Colbol's crew for 4+ years. When hes on point I'd put money on his Fox vs any Falco in the world.

 

[SwiftBass]

ive never played mango in the matchup cuz its hard to find that guy alone or even free to play friendlies and ****.


I think its 45/55 falco



I think mango makes the matchup so **** with his defensive abilities and his tempo control. He doesnt get caught in defensive patterns and he lazers when he should and doesnt when he shouldn't. I think atm he is the paradigm of how falco should be played in that matchup.(screw his game vs marth and peach.........im rly impressed by his fox/falco matchup work) although i think jman and lucky play significantly different overall.......lucky's rush down style I would think would provide excellent practice for not only the matchup, but for Jman's rush down style against falco.


falco just seems to put himself in position for offensive follow ups at a lower cost than fox. thats just his nature. fox has to work much harder for similar opportunities and theres more room for error.( i think marth is suffering from similar symptoms as fox but i'll save that for another thread)

fox i think will always fight uphill. a parabola comes to mind when i think of growth in the matchup. 0 would be the matchup being 50/50, in which foxes edge will always approach. this is the beauty of who I think is the hardest working character in smash.

 

[cykofox]

falco is the best character in the game followed by jigglypuff then fox
i think falco has a slight advantage on fox

 

[Silent Wolf]

what does smash DIing falcos dair do exactly?

edit: @lovage.. i know you were probably kidding.. but doooo itttttt

puts you out of range of the shine, then you can just grab him.

 

[Incronaut]

puts you out of range of the shine, then you can just grab him.

sorry, i should have clarified... you said smash DI towards falco.. thats what i didnt understand.. -.-

 

[Eggm]

Silent wolf means .. picture this. Falco is on the right side of you and dash jumps left and does a SH Dair, if you smash DI to the right you will be out of shine range and be able to punish after he shines. Good falcos will just change the shine to up tilt on reaction tho. =\

 

[G~low]

i think fox has the advantage. vs falco you just have to use shine to knock him down and then tech chase into grabs or another shine if he ends up by the ledge after the first one. on platform stages you can use the platforms to waveland on after jump shines at falco and you always have time to tech chase him from the platform. shine = easy grabs, grabs = guaranteed kill move/easy combos usually. for lasers you just need good shield work.

also practice smash DIing falcos dair, usually towards him. its easy when you know hes going to do it and it gets you out of the combo almost every time. but if he nairs it over if you smash DI in lol.

Im going to apply/steal this >:D
Good stuff

 

[`DNS`]

just because it's mango doesn't make falco a better character
falco obviously has the potential to beat fox

 

[Incronaut]

The only thing that makes me lean towards falco is that fox has a higher tendency to make mistakes... although with jmans control, i would say its pretty much an even matchup...

dont let mango get into your head!

 

[TheManaLord]

Falco beats a lot of characters, Fox is one of them.

Falco only has a few bad/even matchups.

 

[Silent Wolf]

Im going to apply/steal this >:D
Good stuff

dont forget it works on anyone that falls from shine. also, if they hit your shield and youre under a platform, you can jump and shine out of shield then jump out, waveland on the platform and go down there and tech chase in time.


i made a thread on all this a while ago but it just ended up lost over time. everyone should learn to apply this :o

i always see people asking for help vs fox and falco and i never feel like repeating all this lol. maybe ill just make a match up guide or just a thread with a bunch of fox things like this.

 

[Razor]

Tech chasing is just never going to be as reliable as dair shine combos. Falco also edgeguards better with lasers and dair imo.

It's just inherently easier for falco, but I can see at top level the gap being negligible.

this. 10agreements

 

[Silent Wolf]

tech chasing into a grab combos are just as reliable..

 

[precision]

falco is by far easiest character to gimp. fox is best character in game. period.

 

[Charlesz]

falco is by far easiest character to gimp. fox is best character in game. period.

That is completely irrelevent to the thread. The thread is asking whether or not Falco counter Fox and your just simply stating that falco is easy to gimp and fox is the best character. 4 Stocked at 4 a.m.

 

[Blistering Speed]

I really want Mango to start using Fox as much as he does now with Falco. Or PC Chris and KDJ to come back simultaneously. Or Cactuar to change his mind and not retire. Then the mass of good Falcos might have more Foxes to worry about developing the matchup then Jman and Lucky.

 

[LumpyCPU...]

fox vs falco is like a less obvious version of the peach match up, imo.

i feel like it's in fox's favor but he needs to work harder for it.
i see more potential in fox but it's harder to reach that potential.
he has the advantage in every match up (arguably) but every viable character can punish him SOOO hard.

 

[Animal]

shine out of shield is so ****. I mean it s **** to use against fox also, but i feel its harder 4 falco 2 do. But ya advice mango gave me was to knock falco off his feet, then ****. Jman we need to play at the next tourny i go to.

 

[GodMeowMix]

I may not play Melee much, but I do play a lot of fighting games and one thing that you shouldn't be doing is questioning character match ups when you play your opponent. The match up will only get a player so far and that's only if its something like 70-30. You need to be watching your videos closely and asking yourself, "What am I doing wrong? What can I do to avoid that from happening again? Is there a possible counter? (etc.)" on the situations where mango hits you EVERY time so you can improve yourself and prepare yourself for the next time you encounter someone. That's the best advice I can give you on your opponent, and never doubt that a your opponent is going to beat you because they might be "countering" your character.

 

[Inaphyt]

i dont know how many of you fox mains play the matchup in reverse but heres something you may not know or onl be subconscious off

falco's platform game from below (he is on gorund and you on platform) is beast. but when the situation is reverse falco is pretty weak.

all he's got to protect himself is short hopped dairs on the platform to stop you from coming directly up, and incredibly obvious fallthrough dairs/bairs. His jumps and slow ground speed prevent him from abusing being ON the platform the way fox does. you wont see falco's doing run off bairs and smooth platform aerials becaus ehe physically CANT

the trick is to get him on a platform and swiftly move beneath him and them gogogo combo. also, about lasers, falco's like to do the double laser onto platform- > fallthrough laser thing to quickly fill the screen with lasers. If you can catch him right and he is falling with the 3rd laser or just after shooting the second you can tear him apart.

also, if he's on the ground and you're on the platform, keep in mind his weakest area is above his head and a little in front. if you can approach him from that angle its your best shot.

thats my 2 cents anyway. Just remember that falco's -on platform- game isnt that good/safe for him vs fox.

Seriously falco moves around stages much better than fox if a fox is below don't think falco is weak there's plenty of options for getting to the floor in advantage zones yet again. Fox is faster sideways but falco is entirely better vertically falco's dair and bair is better than your own (bair has slightly more range tis true) you can waveland off of either side, phantasm to the opposite platform shorthop reverse b, a falco will know his bad options with fox under the stage and thus move.

I am a newb tho, what is this chaingrab you all seem to talk about with fox? is it upthrow?

 

[BBQ°]

Falco doesn't move around the stage better, but he for sure controls the stage better than Fox does.

And yes, the chaingrab is upthrow.

 

[LumpyCPU...]

oh wow

bbq, i just noticed your avatar is! AMAZING!!

and for the record, i'm trying to keep faith in this match up as fox. it feels good for him but i'm not good at getting out of the "auto combos" and was curious.

can you smash di out of them? when and which way should i be doing it?

 

[Lovage]

theres lots of ways to smash di falco's combos and lots of ways for falco to get around your smash di

not saying it isn't worth it, it is, you just gotta know what you're doing.

 

[VA]

Isn't it stage dependent? I think on the small 3 platform stages faclo kind of obliterates Fox. Once you're hit by shine you're going to end up being tech chased on one of the platforms after a massive combo and it usually ends in dsmash or fsmash.

On PS, FD and DL64 I think fox can manouver better and taking control is a bit easier. Controlling the platforms is easier and there is more space in between them meaning you don't always end up on them after combos.

I feel like the match up is pretty even, they both **** each other up, just depends on the stage :/

 

[LumpyCPU...]

theres lots of ways to smash di falco's combos and lots of ways for falco to get around your smash di

not saying it isn't worth it, it is, you just gotta know what you're doing.

obviously i don't exactly know what i'm doing. (that's why i posted here lol)
is there a nice little rule of thumb or something about how you di falco's dair?
if he's moving forward while dairing, is it better to di behind him? it seems like he has ways around everthing but i'm just curious if there are any tips or tactics i should keep in mind.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

in general when you DI (and SDI) you want to put as much distance between yourself and your opponent in order to keep him from continuing the combo. The only exception is when you DI to a certain stage position that would either not allow him to follow up, or minimize the number of hits he could string.

 

[takieddine]

theres lots of ways to smash di falco's combos and lots of ways for falco to get around your smash di

not saying it isn't worth it, it is, you just gotta know what you're doing.

Agreed, There are ways to get around falco's bull****, but the catch is that falco can have an answer right back, thus why I give falco the advantage because his openings are a lot easier, plus edgeguarding fox for falco is cake. as opposed to the high risk that fox has when edgeguarding falco.

 

[Hostility]

Jman, mango is just better than you, a lot better. You don't seem to factor that in at all. The matchup is even.

 

[Incronaut]

obviously i don't exactly know what i'm doing. (that's why i posted here lol)
is there a nice little rule of thumb or something about how you di falco's dair?
if he's moving forward while dairing, is it better to di behind him? it seems like he has ways around everthing but i'm just curious if there are any tips or tactics i should keep in mind.

silent wolf said earlier in this thread to SDI falco's dair, and if the falco doesnt know to nair over you after its pretty safe...

but im still learning too so you should look into that :D

 

[Dark Hart]

I've been saying this since I learn'd how to wavedash lol

 

[Just Sexed]

Jman, mango is just better than you, a lot better. You don't seem to factor that in at all. The matchup is even.

The gap between skill is significant enough for Jman to able to beat Mango' falco even when mango is at try hard status. This is melee anything is possible.

Falco wins this IMO 60-40 if he can laser effectively. Fox can **** if he full hops a lot and has perfect stage control.

 

[JPOBS]

thus why I give falco the advantage because his openings are a lot easier, plus edgeguarding fox for falco is cake. as opposed to the high risk that fox has when edgeguarding falco.

high risk? LOL
fox has it just as easy in edgeguarding falco if not more so than vise versa:

1. take away his option to sweetspot the edge with his DJ (his best option) by just grabbing the edge (or hitting him far enough away)

2. If you succeeded in part 1, then run off and DJ back on with a NAir. this will hit him out of his attempts to sideB to the ledge/stage. then run off and shinespike him.

3. if for whatever reason he chose to Firebird instead of phantasm then:
a. if he went low, lol at him an run off and shine
b. if he's high and can go on the stage of sweetspot the ledge or any other gay angles, just jump out and hit him something like nair or bair.

problem solved. just remeber to do step 2 cuz even if you miss you have time to punish whatever he does on reaction anyway

Fox can **** if he full hops a lot and has perfect stage control.

Full hopping isnt that good cuz whatever you want to come down with he can CC->shine>death you. unless you always come down with dair which has bad horizontal priority and easily Dash dahced -> punished

and good luck "controlling" anything vs falco.

the real trick is to just be adept at platform movement and running powershields and wavedash OoS.

 

[Blistering Speed]

The gap between skill is significant enough for Jman to able to beat Mango' falco even when mango is at try hard status. This is melee anything is possible.

Falco wins this IMO 60-40 if he can laser effectively. Fox can **** if he full hops a lot and has perfect stage control.

Lol this isn't some cheesy Japanese anime. Jman can't yell how "this is melee and ANYTHING is possible", choose DL64, screech KAKKATE KOI and 4 stock 3-0 Mang0, praising his victory to the almighty heart of t3h cardz.

Mango's better, a lot better. He'll win because he's better, consistently, like against everyone (except them ****ing ganondorfs, warriors make mango smoothies).

 

[SwiftBass]

"this is melee and ANYTHING is possible"

did someone mention possibilities in the form of anything?

 

[Just Sexed]

Lol this isn't some cheesy Japanese anime. Jman can't yell how "this is melee and ANYTHING is possible", choose DL64, screech KAKKATE KOI and 4 stock 3-0 Mang0, praising his victory to the almighty heart of t3h cardz.

Mango's better, a lot better. He'll win because he's better, consistently, like against everyone (except them ****ing ganondorfs, warriors make mango smoothies).

Ok blistering speed with an attitude like that your never going to beat anyone good lol.

Jman can how ever train well in the falco match up and start to take the game more seriously to develop a winning strat against mango's falco.

 

[Blistering Speed]

**** my attitude, I live in the UK. Geography'll stop me beating anyone good.

I didn't say Jman can't get better and win, I said Mango beating him consistently doesn't mean Falco beats Fox 60-40 or worse, it just means Mango's the better player.

 

[SwiftBass]

m.go is significantly better than jman so i think he makes the matchup look worse than it is. jman just happens to be RLY RLY good at the matchup and it seems like he would do better(hence the thread), but mango is just better overall( and is very good at the matchup as well.) which is saying alot since jman is one of the most complete players overall that I have seen.