Falco Beats Fox!!

[(*Jman*)]

after watching me vs mango i just think falco beats fox

i think the match up is about 60/40

dont get me wrong fox can still win the match if played perfect but fox is a all or nothing char

1 hour u can play the best the next u can play the worst >_>

what do u guys think??

best stage vs falco is fd btw


if any1 has tips vs falco that i dont know LMK

 

[jugfingers]

I dunno I think its fair to say that top falco players are slightly better than top fox players in the matchup, but saying falco beats fox I think is not entirely accurate.

fox players just need to learn better techchasing and combos on falco to make it more even since falco has auto **** combos on fox.

I think that fox should be able to out maneuver falco even with his laser to get those first hits though.


definitely a tough matchup, kinda sad to hear you say you think falco is better than fox lol.

 

[Lovage]

ehh i think its like 55:45 for falco

mangos pretty gay

 

[ResidentWaffle]

This thread has some pretty good tips

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=9410317#post9410317

 

[Spife]

Not maining either character, I have to agree. I hate that match up T_T

 

[Requiem]

Lol another m2k.

 

[Bob Money]

Ya pretty much a good falco can make it so fox can't approach. Well timed lasers stuffing nairs.
At that high a level it's very hard for fox to tack on percent after a shine with good falco DI/teching.
Falco is much better at shield stabbing fox. Falco can do so much on platforms now. This match is up hill for a fox at that level as it should be. Falco has one of the best if not the best offensive AND defensive moves in the game...The laser. Very very few falco players can use the laser in both ways well. Good falco players will ****ing destroy you if you land on a platform. In reality fox has to have good foresight to beat falco and make the falco loose stage..That's ****ing hard.

Couple tips, dunno if they will work for you but try it.
.

More shine grab or shine WD back to ftilt etc. This allows for different pressure and catching rolls/sidestepCC shine, good falco players dont reallt get hit much with sex kick shine spam
Try late down airs on shields to shield stab into shine.(Lucky ftw)
Dash dance up smash or just upsmash more in general. Make them afraid to come in. PLus when you DD or WD back upsmash you dont need a clean hit like a bair or grab. a trade is still good for you. reverse up tilt is decent too. I dunno even though its a ''laggy'' move is has a good pay off .
another thing i dont see alot of foxes do anymore is simply just reflect the lasers back then WD out or jump etc.

Really though, we play in a metagame where falcos platform game is ''Marth like'' These kids can combo shine 0-60 easy. It's fn hard when falcos can do that, no matter how well you play combos like that are a huge factor into why Falco is disgusting.

 

[jugfingers]

This thread has some pretty good tips

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=9410317#post9410317

you sir just made me laugh.

 

[Deleted member]

I also think falco beats fox for a lot of reasons. However, I'd rather go to a platform stage vs falco than FD. fox loses dashdancing due to lasers on FD and he can't DI out of combos or use edge cancel mix-ups during recovery to avoid ledge issues. you can CG him, but it's so entirely risky to grab falco in the first place that it's almost not worth it. on platforms, at least you can platform camp him and nullify lasers to some extent, as well as get the best angle of approach on falco (coming in from above him). you can also DI combos onto the platform, then do the tech roll where fox rolls off of the platform. Even if he correctly reads you and still gets a hit on the platform, you can DI almost everything such that he has no combos. also if you stand up and light shield he can either push you off as with the tech roll and have no immediately options, or you can shield fall through the platform into dair/nair and work from there. no matter what the platform gives you more to work with than FD does.

some things:

- any way you can nullify the effectiveness of lasers will give you a mobility game back. fox is only broken because he can choose when to attack. to remain at full potential, you need to be able to do this.
- platform abuse and escape outlined above is obviously easier on larger stages. because you often need to outplay falco to beat him, it's better to go to a large stage so at least you can stall for time to think and look for patterns. DL64 is the easiest IMO. FoD is a nightmare for the same reasons.
- falco has issues with attacking a fox bair above him in general. full jumping and coming down with bair opens up falco's primary hole in his movesets. think marth fair range, thats where falco is weakest.
- edge guard with things he can't tech. ledge hop dairs are nice cause you can WD back off into drop shine with very very little risk to yourself.
- don't jab ever. just don't.
- don't engage falco in guessing games. don't let him tech chase and don't let him make you guess what to do. also don't engage in combos on him. rather, do simple, reliable things that constantly keep him in a bad position.
- master the shorted out side B for recovery. it's very weird for falco to punish unless you do it too much and he just abuses you doing it as a bad habit.
-do bair/nair on a grounded falco as low as possible so you can't get hit by shine out of shield. also don't do anything he can crouch. aka don't nair under like 25%.
- don't laser him. no point.

basically just rely on bair a lot. don't give him things he can skill out of and don't let him out of bad positions.

 

[(*Jman*)]

I dunno I think its fair to say that top falco players are slightly better than top fox players in the matchup, but saying falco beats fox I think is not entirely accurate.

fox players just need to learn better techchasing and combos on falco to make it more even since falco has auto **** combos on fox.

I think that fox should be able to out maneuver falco even with his laser to get those first hits though.


definitely a tough matchup, kinda sad to hear you say you think falco is better than fox lol.

i dont think falco a better char i think falco beats fox in the match up

 

[Charlesz]

I would have to go with lovage on this. 55:45 in the favour of falco. He controls the match vertically ( d-air) and horizontally ( lasers ).

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I thought we have all already gotten past the "lasers are sooooo broken" phase in 07...

personally, i find lasers to be nothing more than a minor annoyance. I think the only true combo falco has from a laser is a ftilt, and thats in pretty close range. I don't find it difficult to shield/powershield a laser then continue moving and if i get hit by one i just go "woops", take my 3% and start moving again. eventually falco will have to stop lasering and hit you with an aerial, and i find falco's nair/dair approach to be pretty mediocre because of his low movement speed/air momentum. As long as you're not overly distracted by the lasers, its pretty easy to avoid and punish his approaches.

Also, i would rather be fox in my shield vs falco than falco pressuring fox's shield. Theres few safe ways to pressure his shield because of falco's slower shffl, so you can fight back from your shield and if he spaces you have opportunity to retreat and reset neutral (where IMO fox has advantage).

When either character gets a hit, its pretty ****. I think falco's combos are very potent, especially on fox, but fox can really **** up falco right back with tech chases and simple effective edge guards.

anyways, i get that you guys probably play better falcos than me, so maybe theres something i'm just not seeing, but i think the match-up is pretty even.

 

[(*Jman*)]

well i just think falco ***** fox when i play mango

theres like nothing i can do i hit his shield shine combo

i hit him low % CC shine combo wtf r u going to do and on top of that he runs from me and shoots perfect lasers so its to hard to get in and hit him

if all falcos just played fox the way mangos does the match up would deff be 60/40

 

[G~low]

IMO I think this is a matchup where Fox doesn't control the match as usual.
I agree with lovage on the percent, it may be me but i kinda dread this matchup :/

It's hard to get hits in with a good Falco

 

[Moooose]

i dunno about that, i think mango's just got you read. no disrespect just mango's mad good.

 

[jugfingers]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nppAMl_ntwE&feature=related

jus do what you did from 0:15-26 more often.


I think fox players just need to be more ****, like just super beast pressure non stop and not fall into falcos slightly slower tempo.


55-45 in foxs favour in my imagination.

 

[Dr Peepee]

i think the match up is about 60/40

Wut da hayul

The opinions in this thread interest me.

 

[Eggm]

Lol, I think its 55/45 in fox's favor. I think its easier for falco to pull off tho.

 

[ZoSo]

Jesus, consider drilling more if you're getting CC punished a lot. Although I know your shield pressure is extremely good, you might want to consider deviating from your usual nair shines. The best you can hope for is either:

a) You hit him with a nair.
b) You hit him with a shine that you won't be able to follow up on.

Meanwhile, any slight mistake on your part = huge punishment for him. You wouldn't even have to mess up against Mango since he's so perfect out of shield. It's way too risky.

If you find yourself chasing him down the whole game, consider just holding your shine for a bit to discourage lasers.

IMO, matchup is mostly even but slightly in Fox's favor. I'm kind of sad to learn that you believe otherwise, Jesus. Maybe it's just Mango?

 

[Silent Wolf]

i think fox has the advantage. vs falco you just have to use shine to knock him down and then tech chase into grabs or another shine if he ends up by the ledge after the first one. on platform stages you can use the platforms to waveland on after jump shines at falco and you always have time to tech chase him from the platform. shine = easy grabs, grabs = guaranteed kill move/easy combos usually. for lasers you just need good shield work.

 

[unknown522]

I think it's at least 55/45 for falco. Fox's only disadvantage. It's just so much easier for falco to hit fox. They both **** each other out of most single hits, but it's more of a ***** for fox to get in on falco. Even on platform stages, when falco laser camps under a platform, it's just so difficult for fox to get in on falco. He can't really force falco to approach.

When fox lands a hit on falco, it'll get CC'd, unless he does d-air. The problem with that though is that falco's moves will all out-prioritize the d-air, and he will get combo'd for it. Also, if fox d-airs falco while he's jumping, he can shine fox first, before he can do anything. It's really sad.

 

[jugfingers]

i think fox has the advantage. vs falco you just have to use shine to knock him down and then tech chase into grabs or another shine if he ends up by the ledge after the first one. on platform stages you can use the platforms to waveland on after jump shines at falco and you always have time to tech chase him from the platform. shine = easy grabs, grabs = guaranteed kill move/easy combos usually. for lasers you just need good shield work.

hooray for fox players that have faith in their character.

 

[(*Jman*)]

i have faith in my char 100% thats y im still playing him lol

o and i like that shine on to platforms thing SW said i'll try to throw it in to my game

but yea maybe it is just mango he is to hard to beat -_-

 

[FluxWolf]

its hard u just gotta play it safe and not get shined

remember if all else fails "back air spam" LOL

 

[jugfingers]

i have faith in my char 100% thats y im still playing him lol

o and i like that shine on to platforms thing SW said i'll try to throw it in to my game

but yea maybe it is just mango he is to hard to beat -_-

how do you do against other falcos?

for example zhu if you played him at pound?

 

[(*Jman*)]

my record vs falco in tourney is really good

i just lose to mango like every tourney

never played zhu and me and pee pee r 1-1

 

[FluxWolf]

u gotta take the ol' short cuts see!

 

[TheKneeOfJustice]

Mow is right. From playing this match-up a lot with JesiahTEG it's really about bair spacing, and using platforms to get near enough to him so his laser game is less optimal. Also, while Mow says don't grab, which is risky, when you do get grabs off you have to make it count like crazy. It's the only time you are going to get really auto combos like the ones Falco is doing to you. You can also try shield stab mix ups, because Falco's these days are really starting to use OoShield options more, especially shine. Spaced nair->shine wave dash back d-tilt can catch players who angle their shields upwards to try and mess with your l-cancels.

Also, more players should do this, I need to consciously start doing it more myself, but light shielding during pressure strings to slide away can be really useful. One thing I notice JesiahTEG doing when he plays Fox vs my Falco is try to rush in and abuse his powershielding, which he is really consistent with. If you can't adjust your laser game spacing fast enough, you can start to do some really stupid things like rush in PS Up smash, and force a tech chase situation.

 

[iamthemicrowave]

sveet, you've never played a top falco with an amazing laser game, ur underestimating them way too much. a careful falco with retreating lasers and good platform lasers can shut everything down.

example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5MY4nqQw98

pp vs pc chris. at 0:44 pp ***** pcs first stock, and its all due to careful laser play.

 

[Niko45]

Tech chasing is just never going to be as reliable as dair shine combos. Falco also edgeguards better with lasers and dair imo.

It's just inherently easier for falco, but I can see at top level the gap being negligible.

 

[TheKneeOfJustice]

It's just inherently easier for falco, but I can see at top level the gap being negligible.

Jman asks these questions BECAUSE he is top level. Evidently the gap is not as negligible as you'd imagine.

 

[Oracle]

I don't really think it's in falco's favor; I believe it's even but highly stage dependant. FD is obviously falco, for example.

Everyone says that falco has auto **** combos on fox, but everyone seems to forget that fox can get guaranteed 50% ish with his chaingrab, not even factoring in the possibility that you can follow up and finish the combo. In addition to that, you can easily gimp him with the shine.

 

[Silent Wolf]

i have faith in my char 100% thats y im still playing him lol

o and i like that shine on to platforms thing SW said i'll try to throw it in to my game

but yea maybe it is just mango he is to hard to beat -_-

yeah im pretty sure its mango and not falco lol.

 

[takieddine]

Foxes need to put into their game perfect aerial powershielding into moves (a la brawl), CC falco's shine, with good DI it is really hard for falco to do anything. But yeah its easy to mess up things like perfect power shielding thusly i'd give falco the advantage. The only real feasible advantage fox has over falco is the shinespike, where as all of falco's moves can either kill or combo fox pretty easy.

 

[Niko45]

Jman asks these questions BECAUSE he is top level. Evidently the gap is not as negligible as you'd imagine.

He said he has a solid record in tournament vs Falco. What in the world are you talking about?

Plus there are other pro foxes, you know, like the ones in this topic? Some of whom are favoring fox in the matchup?

 

[JPOBS]

i dont know how many of you fox mains play the matchup in reverse but heres something you may not know or onl be subconscious off

falco's platform game from below (he is on gorund and you on platform) is beast. but when the situation is reverse falco is pretty weak.

all he's got to protect himself is short hopped dairs on the platform to stop you from coming directly up, and incredibly obvious fallthrough dairs/bairs. His jumps and slow ground speed prevent him from abusing being ON the platform the way fox does. you wont see falco's doing run off bairs and smooth platform aerials becaus ehe physically CANT

the trick is to get him on a platform and swiftly move beneath him and them gogogo combo. also, about lasers, falco's like to do the double laser onto platform- > fallthrough laser thing to quickly fill the screen with lasers. If you can catch him right and he is falling with the 3rd laser or just after shooting the second you can tear him apart.

also, if he's on the ground and you're on the platform, keep in mind his weakest area is above his head and a little in front. if you can approach him from that angle its your best shot.

thats my 2 cents anyway. Just remember that falco's -on platform- game isnt that good/safe for him vs fox.

 

[Lovage]

ppl who play mango think its in falcos favor

ppl who play other falcos don't



i could write pages about the mango matchup and why he's so dominant but maybe another time

 

[stingers]

noo lovage do it that sounds awesome

 

[Moooose]

yea i wanna read that

 

[Silent Wolf]

also practice smash DIing falcos dair, usually towards him. its easy when you know hes going to do it and it gets you out of the combo almost every time. but if he nairs it over if you smash DI in lol.