Falco Beats Fox!!

[(*Jman*)]

i got this new **** pc showed me son ****s been working vs falcos on the ec

i have to see how it works vs other falcos now

 

[FluxWolf]

atta kid lol

whats the strat?

 

[ETWIST51294]

JMAN, YOU CAN'T BE HOLDlN OUT ON US

 

[Tomacawk]

Jman way to withhold information you butt

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

*insert chain letter here*

*insert amount of spam you have to send your friends*

do that and jesus will personally PM you his secret to beating falco!



(yeah i was too lazy to do this for real)

 

[jugfingers]

i got this new **** pc showed me son ****s been working vs falcos on the ec

i have to see how it works vs other falcos now

10 bucks on upsmash out of shield when falco is approaching from above

 

[Deleted member]

10 bucks on upsmash out of shield when falco is approaching from above

horrible idea.

 

[TresChikon]

Nah, it's all about the reverse upsmash kill.

 

[Lovage]

i been playing mango more recently so im trying to work up stuff to help against falco (specific tech stuff not strategy)

im kinda close to some stuff that might be **** but i gotta try it more

 

[TemPesT-]

10 bucks on upsmash out of shield when falco is approaching from above

nah...

Nah, it's all about the reverse upsmash kill.

nah...

it's all about reverse upsmash OUT OF SHIELD kill when falco is approaching from above.

 

[jugfingers]

horrible idea.

I guess...



5:39

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8zHXhtm2k4

 

[Lovage]

nah umbreons right

top level falcos are gonna mess up so little that ur gotta get like one in thirty usmashes oos right, and every time u dont get it they get a free shine combo (half ur stock) so its better to just out-position

 

[JPOBS]

upsmash oos is a seriously underused tactic by foxes these days.

it comes out of frame 8 for christs sake, only 1 frame less than a sheild grab.

and falco's ideal pillar has like a 15 frame window of no sheild stun where you could smash his face in.
foxs should do it for real.

 

[jugfingers]

nah umbreons right

top level falcos are gonna mess up so little that ur gotta get like one in thirty usmashes oos right, and every time u dont get it they get a free shine combo (half ur stock) so its better to just out-position

you watched the the pc pp match though right?


if a falco is a full jump above you and starts to dair if you time it right it just a free upsmash.

its not about the falco messing up or anything


its just a free upsmash

maybe in perfect sh pillar pressure it wouldn't work, but even then maybe just a little tilt of the shield up, you notice they dair a little early BAM free upsmash(6:16 for instance http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8zHXhtm2k4),

but nevertheless in fullhop situations it looks pretty legit, even if you time it poorly and it trades, upsmash for dair trade is a winning trade for fox.

 

[Deleted member]

upsmash oos is a seriously underused tactic by foxes these days.

it comes out of frame 8 for christs sake, only 1 frame less than a sheild grab.

and falco's ideal pillar has like a 15 frame window of no sheild stun where you could smash his face in.
foxs should do it for real.

so falco can double shine instead? why would you engage in guessing games for 18% where, if you lose, you get combod to 60? the best way to deal with falco's pillar is to not challenge it. if you give your opponent a chance to out-skill you, they eventually will.

if fox really wants to beat falco, spam bair. if it's not working, bair better.

 

[Lovage]

so falco can double shine instead? why would you engage in guessing games for 18% where, if you lose, you get combod to 60? the best way to deal with falco's pillar is to not challenge it. if you give your opponent a chance to out-skill you, they eventually will.

if fox really wants to beat falco, spam bair. if it's not working, bair better.

pretty much this

YES, usmash oos is very good against falco, but it's so risky (yes, even in the situations you presented, try playing mango or zhu's falco) that even if you knew exactly how to execute it, it wouldn't be worth it, because the risk vs. reward of getting hit by falco's shine at low % is not in your favor.

not saying people shouldn't master this technique. it's very useful in some places, especially against noobs who don't know how to time their hits right. but if you base your strategy around this against a good falco, you're gonna get embarrassed.

 

[ZoSo]

I don't know who the "good" Falcos you're talking about are, but PC makes it work all the time against Falcos who I think most people would consider "good."

 

[BigD!!!]

havent top falcos been beating top foxes more often than not for the past like 3 years?

i didnt know this was news

 

[Zone]

I think this sudden surge of Falco>Fox is just due to the use proportions. Look how many top Falcos there are compared to Foxes (seriously, it's like, Jman...and then Lucky and that's it).

What about colbol? Is he not on their level?

But understanding that wasn't really your point. I just feel sad I see little mention of colbol. Although I guess he hasn't been to many major tourneys lately.

 

[forward]

I don't think so Big D, I think the results are too close to call.

+1 more person who says to hit and run with fox.

 

[Charlesz]

so falco can double shine instead? why would you engage in guessing games for 18% where, if you lose, you get combod to 60? the best way to deal with falco's pillar is to not challenge it. if you give your opponent a chance to out-skill you, they eventually will.

if fox really wants to beat falco, spam bair. if it's not working, bair better.

Falco's don't jc shine in fox's sheild too much. Mostly pillars.

 

[forward]

Only bad falcos pillar. Or good falcos pillar against bad players lol.

 

[unknown522]

yeah, you can just shine out of shield vs falco if they try to pillar.

It's the laser camping that's the problem....though people don't realize it.

 

[Tee ay eye]

Only bad falcos pillar. Or good falcos pillar against bad players lol.

can you please explain this a little more, sean?

 

[ZoSo]

He'll get to it right after he updates his blog.

 

[CanISmash]

its not just pillar its laser its all kinda shield pressure. falco runs the world.

 

[forward]

can you please explain this a little more, sean?

I just think that most characters have a lot of options around shine > shuffle dair. It's good to use sometimes but there are a lot of follow ups to use after a shine and you have to use all of them so that you don't become predictable. Bad players pillar because they don't know or don't know how to use other options and good players pillar bad players because bad players don't know how to get out of it.

 

[FluxWolf]

OMG that post is so win forward

end of convo everyone can stop now about frame data and how its impossible to do anything ur all just dumb and bad not saying im better than anyone but thats the truth right there haha

lovage i still love u tho =3

 

[Silent Wolf]

you can wd away out of shield after falco dairs you with like every character lol

 

[jugfingers]

pretty much this

YES, usmash oos is very good against falco, but it's so risky (yes, even in the situations you presented, try playing mango or zhu's falco) that even if you knew exactly how to execute it, it wouldn't be worth it, because the risk vs. reward of getting hit by falco's shine at low % is not in your favor.

not saying people shouldn't master this technique. it's very useful in some places, especially against noobs who don't know how to time their hits right. but if you base your strategy around this against a good falco, you're gonna get embarrassed.

PC was doing this against Dr PP, hes a pretty good falco....

 

[Cosmo!]

imo the falco shield pressure metagame is now much more based off of mango style pillar, i.e. nair -> shine -> early retreating nair, instead of continuing past 3 hits and leaving holes in your offense

I also think silent wolf is right about how getting falco on the ground then easy techchase into huge combo is a very effective strat against falco

dunno who really wins the matchup though

 

[PB&J]

jman- u live one block from lambchops..go play him

 

[RaynEX]

Only bad falcos pillar. Or good falcos pillar against bad players lol.

The first dair shine shine is on an opponent's shield is almost always safe and low. The second dair in a shield pressure string is usually performed early and hits the opponent's shield high. This is what allows Fox to shine oos so easily (without even having to oos shine perfectly) and for alot of the cast to roll or WD between the hits.

Mango stopped doing this and instead goes for dair shine -> high dair/nair d.i. backwards bait something. Alternatively, dair shine -> SH wait -> low dair shine again, etc.

The problem with trying to hit only low dairs, is that there is time where you are floating in the air completely helpless. You can get aerial'd or even grabbed if people call your low aerials.

With bad players however, even the sloppiest dair shines will work. As long as people keep trying to grab after aerials and not shines, Falco will get free combos. lol

 

[Dr Peepee]

PC was doing this against Dr PP, hes a pretty good falco....

You really shouldn't use that.

 

[SwiftBass]

You really shouldn't use that.

i dunno using a single player vs player comparison sounds pri gud to me. pffft who is dis PPMD guy

>___________>

 

[jugfingers]

You really shouldn't use that.

so what do you think about upsmash out of shield to challenge a full hopped or double jump dair wit falco.

 

[Dr Peepee]

First of all, I'm going to wonder why a Fox is trying to challenge the Dair instead of getting out of the way(probably with WD OOS) and punishing Falco when he lands(with an Upsmash, grab, etc)/as he falls(with a Bair, Nair, etc).

Ignoring that, I'm going to be honest and say I don't know much about that situation(Usmash OOS vs FH/DJ Dair). I'd think that it'd be tough for Fox to pull off the Usmash OOS to trade with/beat? Falco's Dair, but doable with practice(I guess it would come down to work with getting the timing and following aerial DI?).

But yeah, I guess my short answer is: it's -probably- doable, but it'd be better to avoid the Dair and punish.

 

[jugfingers]

First of all, I'm going to wonder why a Fox is trying to challenge the Dair instead of getting out of the way(probably with WD OOS) and punishing Falco when he lands(with an Upsmash, grab, etc)/as he falls(with a Bair, Nair, etc).

Ignoring that, I'm going to be honest and say I don't know much about that situation(Usmash OOS vs FH/DJ Dair). I'd think that it'd be tough for Fox to pull off the Usmash OOS to trade with/beat? Falco's Dair, but doable with practice(I guess it would come down to work with getting the timing and following aerial DI?).

But yeah, I guess my short answer is: it's -probably- doable, but it'd be better to avoid the Dair and punish.

fair enough

I brought this up because of 5:39 of this match http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8zHXhtm2k4

 

[Dr Peepee]

Looked like the sourspot of the Dair to me. That's what you'd want to try to challenge, if anything.

LOL good Falcos won't be giving good Foxes sourspot Dairs to Usmash though. I'm just ********.

 

[Blistering Speed]

What about colbol? Is he not on their level?

But understanding that wasn't really your point. I just feel sad I see little mention of colbol. Although I guess he hasn't been to many major tourneys lately.

Colbol's good, but he needs to travel more if I'm to judge him on the same level as those two.