JPOBS
Smash Hero
^ i lol'd
10dickriders
10dickriders
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Falco Beats Fox!!
- Thread starter (*Jman*)
- Start date
forward
Smash Champion
Upsmash OOS is a high level strategy.
High level.
I want to emphasize that. High level strategy sometimes means doing stupid things in a controlled, unpredictable manner. Like teching in place 3 times in a row. It's so stupid that it works.
Before I state the following, I want to say that Falcos do NOT want to risk getting hit by an upsmash at >30% while they are attacking. Chances are it will result in a missed tech, which leads to another up smash, which leads to a nair, etc. It gets ugly.
In the Fox vs Falco match up, the ABC's of Falco's approach goes like this. Falco approaches, doesn't land a hit but now has a strong position to follow up his approach. He doesn't want Fox to counter from that position so he plays aggressive, but safe. He does double shines and jumps onto a platform, he dairs/nairs early and pulls it back, etc. The Fox, also knowing the ABC's, will not challenge Falco's offense from the shield, he knows that Falco will beat him in this position, so he plays defensive. After awhile, the Falco realizes that Fox is not challenging his offense, so he takes a few more liberties in offense. In essence, the Falco sacrifices his safe options because he believes Fox will not challenge him.
It is at this moment that upsmash oos becomes viable. If Falco does shine > sh dair, and waits to dair at the top of his sh, upsmash oos works. If Falco just runs at the shield, anticipating Fox to retreat and waiting to punish that roll/full jump, then up smash oos works.
There is never an always in melee, and there is never a never. Most of it comes down to intuition and experience. PC had the experience in the match to make some good calls. He also made some bad calls, but perhaps they were not punished as badly as they could have been. To me, he made the right decision.
High level.
I want to emphasize that. High level strategy sometimes means doing stupid things in a controlled, unpredictable manner. Like teching in place 3 times in a row. It's so stupid that it works.
Before I state the following, I want to say that Falcos do NOT want to risk getting hit by an upsmash at >30% while they are attacking. Chances are it will result in a missed tech, which leads to another up smash, which leads to a nair, etc. It gets ugly.
In the Fox vs Falco match up, the ABC's of Falco's approach goes like this. Falco approaches, doesn't land a hit but now has a strong position to follow up his approach. He doesn't want Fox to counter from that position so he plays aggressive, but safe. He does double shines and jumps onto a platform, he dairs/nairs early and pulls it back, etc. The Fox, also knowing the ABC's, will not challenge Falco's offense from the shield, he knows that Falco will beat him in this position, so he plays defensive. After awhile, the Falco realizes that Fox is not challenging his offense, so he takes a few more liberties in offense. In essence, the Falco sacrifices his safe options because he believes Fox will not challenge him.
It is at this moment that upsmash oos becomes viable. If Falco does shine > sh dair, and waits to dair at the top of his sh, upsmash oos works. If Falco just runs at the shield, anticipating Fox to retreat and waiting to punish that roll/full jump, then up smash oos works.
There is never an always in melee, and there is never a never. Most of it comes down to intuition and experience. PC had the experience in the match to make some good calls. He also made some bad calls, but perhaps they were not punished as badly as they could have been. To me, he made the right decision.
`DNS`
Smash Lord
I was going to say something but I'd seem like a huge **** so
Dynamism?
Smash Champion
That is actually awesome...
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
God **** Sean. I wish you'd take the liberty to thoroughly analyze my matches like you did Zhu vs PC. I know I'm missing alot.
joeplicate
Smash Master
jugfingers, what i don't like about your PC examples is that you're picking and choosing
immediately into that match you linked (at 15 seconds) pc goes for an upsmash out of shield, trades with dair, and gets shined right after for trying to challenge it
and has it also occurred to you that, even if PC chris never gets punished for his upsmashes oos, it could be because he always just does them at the right time?
immediately into that match you linked (at 15 seconds) pc goes for an upsmash out of shield, trades with dair, and gets shined right after for trying to challenge it
and has it also occurred to you that, even if PC chris never gets punished for his upsmashes oos, it could be because he always just does them at the right time?
jugfingers
Smash Champion
picking and choosing? .........you mean like how in a certain situation a move can be used,
.......where in other situations it can't
(KML)!!!!
lol........yea doing a move at the right time, is sort of important
with any move.
I already commented on that example a few posts above so I won't reiterate myself.
if you watch Jman vs pc from pound pc uses an usmash oos predicting jman is going to approach with something but just gets dashdance grabbed, obviously there are alot of situations where umsmash oos is a bad idea, like any move.
I could show you a hundred examples of foxes getting punished for shffling nairs at the wrong time or mistimed bairs, and another hundred of foxes ****** with nairs and bairs using them at the right time in the right situation..........
and yet if you I was here arguing that nairs and bairs are legit moves to use with fox showing specific examples of them being used correctly
I don't think you'd disagree.
most likely, you would say, yea bairs and nairs are good moves too use why the **** are you wasting our time telling us what we already know.
please if anyone wants to disagree with me specifically about this, please respond only to this summarised form of my argument.
Upsmash OOS is viable in certain situations
although I think Forward has summarised an argument for usmashoos concisely and coherently so please read his post above.
SwiftBass
Smash Hero
RaynEX
Colonel RTSD
Shine is faster and safer, albeit harder to follow-up if you manage to land it. Usmash isn't nearly as reliable, but it does have its uses. The thing is, even if you mess up the shine oos and shorthop a bit off the ground, its still faster than usmash. The only reason you'd use usmash instead, is because it is infinitely easier to combo off of. The hard part is knowing when it will connect. Its relatively safe to try to go for it if Falco hits high on your shield with dair, and also when he hits your shield in a manner that puts him out of range for his shine.
Usmash has more range, and it has the potential to trade with other hitboxes or simply motor through them. Grab either works or doesn't, there is no in between. The major drawback for me personally, is the lag on the usmash if it whiffs. Just thinking about it happening in close quarters v Falco makes me cringejpobs said:
Fortress | Sveet
▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
usmash is 7 frames, plus 1 for jump cancel. shine is 4 frames off the jump (3 for the jump animation, 4th frame is shine). obviously, imperfect shines OoS will be slower than 4 frames, and imperfect JC usmashes will be more than 8 frames.
Fletch
Smash Master
If you mean to say that usmash has a larger hitbox and is better at beating other attacks, I agree, but I just want to make sure you realize that grabs will "overwrite" other attacks if a trade in the conventional sense occurs.
Excellent post by Foward. Everybody should memorize it.
D
Deleted member
Guest
hmm, I agree with this to a limited extent. As soon as you decide that a generally non-viable tactic regains utility due to a player read, you are from that point outplaying your opponent. So long as you are outplaying your opponent, you should not be forced to take an ultimatum to begin with.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
You don't have to be better than someone to take advantages of his patterns and bad habits. Whether or not you get a read on someone at a particular moment has nothing to do with how the match has proceeded thus far nor should it reflect on the skill gap between you and the opponent.
D
Deleted member
Guest
given two equal players, add a slight increase in one ability for one player. that player is now better than the other. the rest of the match prior can be taken as "even" to reflect the players in this scenario, so that can be ignored. the better player can now outplay the worse player.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
The only point I'm trying to make is that sometimes people arbitrarily decide things like "Hey, I think this time he'll respect my shield pressure and not attempt to shield grab me. Therefore, I'll do X to punish him for foregoing that action." Such situations can occur randomly and do not necessarily imply that the player who made a correct decision is better than the other player or is "outplaying" him per se.
jugfingers
Smash Champion
You make it sound as though if you could potentially upsmash someone oos due to reading their attack/movements. you shouldn't....because its too commital(forced to take an ultimatum)..... wut?? First time in history someone has referred to Upsmashing your opponent as "Being forced to take an ultimatum" lol.
also if you utilize a tactic, by very definition that tactic is viable.
also, please give me an example of an instance where a tactic is utilized without a player read???
RaynEX
Colonel RTSD
Yeah, that last post by Forward was legit.
Correct me if I'm wrong: grab overwriting occurs if a vulnerable hitbox (a leg or arm during a move) passes through your opponent's active grab hitbox. I think this is what you mean..
Usmash is more likely to hit because of some slight distinctions with grab in its range, active frames, speed. Granted, I'd much rather land the grab, but with an invincible head, a hitbox behind him, and more reach above and in front of him, I can't help but shuffle over to usmash.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
I can't help but shuffle nair to u-smash all day!
RaynEX
Colonel RTSD
I was going to spell it 'shffling', but I figured you smart cookies would get the smash reference. 
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
I'm the smartest cookie in the jar!
D
Deleted member
Guest
cookies are not merited based upon their intelligence. your statement makes no sense, thus undermining your claim to intelligence. 2 for 1.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Your first mistake was acknowledging that I made a claim to intelligence at all. In doing so, you refuted your own argument that my statement made no sense, by recognizing its comprehensibility. Your second mistake was going in against a Sicilian when death was on the line.
jugfingers
Smash Champion
the fact that something isn't merited based upon a certain attribute, does not mean that it lacks this attribute.
(i.e people aren't merited based on the colour of the inside of their esophogus, but still the inside of an esophagus does indeed have colour)
learn to use logic please.
SwiftBass
Smash Hero
also in the defense of upsmash, I believe that in the first 5 frames of the startup...foxes head is invincible. agreed on the lag after it btw. that **** sucks when it whiffs and falco is like DD lawl I can do anything.
RaynEX
Colonel RTSD
If you try to usmash illusions, and they go through you and you hit them from behind, without getting hit yourself...
now you now the secret. They pass through your head and get hit by the later hitbox only.
I wonder if you could turn around and usmash incoming aerials safely using this. hehehe
By using his invincible head to dodge stuff and hit with the weird backwards part of usmash we could take over the world.
now you now the secret. They pass through your head and get hit by the later hitbox only.
I wonder if you could turn around and usmash incoming aerials safely using this. hehehe
By using his invincible head to dodge stuff and hit with the weird backwards part of usmash we could take over the world.
jugfingers
Smash Champion
now your talking
D
Deleted member
Guest
haha, *****/10.
`DNS`
Smash Lord
i think that's just because the illusion has horrid priority
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
More like it has zero priority. Fox's hurtbox is in front of his hitbox lol.
I.B
Smash Lord
all this talk about advanced up-smash tactics and intellectual cookies makes me hungry
unknown522
Some guy
No. It is because the illusion hitbox is behind fox/falco. That's why you don't get hit. You can grab them facing backwards, and you still won't get hit. It has nothing to do with the invincible head.
On another note, DEHF beat lucky....
D
Deleted member
Guest
SwiftBass
Smash Hero
unknown's sig is awesome
umbreon i disagree with what you said about ultimatums and junk
if two players are even, and then one gains the benefit of learning a pattern or in some way can read the other player, he doesnt automatically gain an advantage. he has to act on what he's learned by, as you put it, taking an ultimatum
if you learn that somebody has a tendency to do something that leaves them a little bit vulnerable, thats useless knowledge unless you attempt to punish it. reading players and punishing them is the definition of outplaying someone, so i dont think your idea that once you understand a player you can outplay them instead of gambling is quite accurate
if two players are even, and then one gains the benefit of learning a pattern or in some way can read the other player, he doesnt automatically gain an advantage. he has to act on what he's learned by, as you put it, taking an ultimatum
if you learn that somebody has a tendency to do something that leaves them a little bit vulnerable, thats useless knowledge unless you attempt to punish it. reading players and punishing them is the definition of outplaying someone, so i dont think your idea that once you understand a player you can outplay them instead of gambling is quite accurate
D
Deleted member
Guest
I agree that higher level smash intrinsically carries some guesswork, but I wouldn't deduce a newly gained advantage to "gambling" unless your read of the opponent is a poor one. You should automatically gain an advantage so long as your read is a good one. Even if you don't punish on the read, you are still made more aware of your options, and in doing so are choosing not to make that punishment. But the advantage is still yours.
The first paragraph there is a clever play on words I guess but it doesn't do much for your argument.
SwiftBass
Smash Hero
is punishing really a choice or is the other player punishing you?
I like to think that the idea of a "mixup" or a variation in a so called "pattern" is coherent with punishing. If I do the same thing at the end of all my shuffles and am getting punished for it .....is changing what you do after a shuffle (and successfully not getting punished) punishing? I guess it could be considered punishing someone for trying to punish you. Punishing just comes off as a defensive term.
thoughts?
I guess i am questiong "punishing" and its association with defensive tactics. I myself dun categorize defense/offense with such terms. whether Im on D or O I just call lit out smarting you.
I like to think that the idea of a "mixup" or a variation in a so called "pattern" is coherent with punishing. If I do the same thing at the end of all my shuffles and am getting punished for it .....is changing what you do after a shuffle (and successfully not getting punished) punishing? I guess it could be considered punishing someone for trying to punish you. Punishing just comes off as a defensive term.
thoughts?
I guess i am questiong "punishing" and its association with defensive tactics. I myself dun categorize defense/offense with such terms. whether Im on D or O I just call lit out smarting you.